Russia banned from hosting/competing at major international events for 4 years

[MarieM]

Any idea what's going to happen to Bukin and Stolbova? Do they need to prove that they are clean or are they on the banned list?

Add Katsalapov to that list. Well all athletes from Sotchi.

 

[Ka3sha]

Add Katsalapov to that list. Well all athletes from Sotchi.

We don’t know that for sure yet, as far as I understand. For example, Bobrova/Soloviev also competed in Sochi but were allowed to go to Korea in 2018

 

[Wyliefan]

This is just the first step in a process and what I would expect is that people close to young skaters are not letting them think at this point they are screwed forever and a day. Its very unlikely they won't be able to compete as happened in 2018.

If I were Ivan Bukin I might be nervous.

Tarakanova's already been posting on Instagram about how worried she is. I assume other skaters have as well -- I didn't have time to check. Hers just happened to pop up in my feed. (And yes, I know her chances of making Worlds or Olympics aren't good, but I assume she doesn't want to see them go from "not good" to "zero.")

 

[taz'smum]

We don’t know that for sure yet, as far as I understand. For example, Bobrova/Soloviev also competed in Sochi but were allowed to go to Korea in 2018

Russia submitted in advance an extended squad of 500 athletes as they didn't know which athletes they would ultimately be sending. In Ice dance, 5 teams were submitted, S/K were one of those 5.
However according to the Russian press, Bukin, Stolbova and Katsalapov were not on the eventual invitation list selected from the initial 500 athletes.

 

[alexikeguchi]

How would you like to be the parent of an hysterical 15 or 16 year old who has never done anything wrong that somebody else just fecked with your life and career and did it when you were just a little kid?

What sentimental nonsense. Do you think the international sporting community, in all sports, should turn a blind eye to flagrant abuses just because an individual fifteen year old might cry? And aren't you the one who is always saying that no one can predict what the future holds as far as growth spurts and injury, so we should just enjoy the performances of the junior athletes while we can?

No one is owed an Olympic medal or even participation just because they worked hard and didn't intentionally use drugs. If so, the vast majority of us would be Olympians. Illness and injuries happen, politics (talking S Africa or invasion of Afghanistan level, not minor disputes) happen, and this is just one more of those things that can happen. Losing out on an opportunity to compete in the Olympics is nowhere near top of the list of the worst or most unfair things that ever transpired.

That being said, I think most of us would fall over if skaters weren't allowed participation a la 2018.

 

[Ka3sha]

Russia submitted in advance an extended squad of 500 athletes as they didn't know which athletes they would ultimately be sending. In Ice dance 5 teams were submitted, S/K were one of those 5.
However according to the Russian press, Bukin, Stolbova and Katsalapov were not on that invitation list.

Thanks!
I remember one interview with Mozer where she said that all Sochi athletes were banned from Korea, but after that Bob/Sol were still allowed to compete, so I wasn’t sure...
Anyway, what a mess.

 

[MsZem]

What sentimental nonsense. Do you think the international sporting community, in all sports, should turn a blind eye to flagrant abuses just because an individual fifteen year old might cry?

Shockingly, people get sentimental about their kids, and want the best for them.

It possible to empathize with the athletes and their families without ignoring the institutional wrongdoing.

 

[BlueRidge]

Tarakanova's already been posting on Instagram about how worried she is. I assume other skaters have as well -- I didn't have time to check. Hers just happened to pop up in my feed. (And yes, I know her chances of making Worlds or Olympics aren't good, but I assume she doesn't want to see them go from "not good" to "zero.")

Well I hope that the facts are being conveyed. There are several more steps in the process and the precedent is that athletes won't be prevented from competing.

Hysteria about it might benefit certain political factions in Russia, and that's unfortunate for the athletes but no one needs to go along with it here.

 

[Wyliefan]

I said worried, not hysterical.

 

[BlueRidge]

I said worried, not hysterical.

I used the word hysteria in relation to others not the skaters.

The skaters should go about their business. Why should they have any concern that things will turn out differently than 2018?

In any case for skaters it has to go through the IOC and the ISU. Its a good idea to wait on that.

 

[Vagabond]

How would you like to be the parent of an hysterical 15 or 16 year old who has never done anything wrong that somebody else just fecked with your life and career and did it when you were just a little kid?

1. Teenagers get hysterical about a lot of things. Any good parent will have developed coping strategies.
2. There is more to life than being an elite athlete.
3. There are going to be ways for young Russian athletes to compete internationally.
4. The ban could have been more drastic.
5. That hysterical 15 or 16-year-old will have signed an agreement to abide by the World Anti-Doping Code. In so doing, he or she gets the opportunity to compete internationally, but that opportunity is not an unfettered right. This is the kind of life lesson that teenagers need to learn, be they elite athletes or not.
6. Sometimes, even when we did nothing wrong, we have to pay for the wrongs of others. This is yet another life lesson best learned early.

 

[caseyedwards]

Everyone in Russian sports knew WADA had the real lab results and real info! But they sent a fake one! That should have meant a ban of all Russians without exception. This is weak and pathetic and nothing will change at all as it’s a minor variation on the Pyeongchang punishment which was a catastrophic failure. The problem is if a skater or anyone decided to dope no one in Russian sports leadership would be “that’s bad” they would be “how can we help this person cheat” that’s why all the clean athletes must be banned too! Because they aren’t safe. They can all decide to dope and be protected and encouraged in their doping.

 

[thvu]

The worst part is, they are so dumb, they couldn't even cheat properly without being caught. Unbelievable idiots.

Like I tell my students - "If you're going to do the wrong thing, do it the right way."

 

[MacMadame]

How would you like to be the parent of an hysterical 15 or 16 year old who has never done anything wrong that somebody else just fecked with your life and career and did it when you were just a little kid?

Maybe the Russian officials should have thought of that before they engaged in such blatant bad behavior.

I wonder if stripping Russian officials of their international assignments will finally be the thing that gets them to stop covering up (and even encouraging) doping. Because now they are going to suffer. They don't seem to care about the athletes but I am sure they care about their own prestige and cushy assignments.

 

[Aerobicidal]

The idea that anyone in figure skating is acting based on what's good for the parents of teenage girls is possibly just a bit questionable.

 

[caseyedwards]

Putin could help the situation by apologizing to WADA personally! Or agreeing to resign.

 

[Amantide]

Per the articles, the Russian labs are only part of the issue. Russia had a chance to clear things up by providing test data from their labs, but rather than hand over all the data apparently altered the contents so that the status of individual athletes cannot be accurately assessed. It is the lack of cooperation and intentional obstruction that landed them the latest ban.

According to NYT article:

As part of the resolution of that case, Russia agreed to provide a set of testing results to doping regulators from its Moscow laboratory. It is that database, which Russia was found to have manipulated, that is at the heart of a crisis that threatens its sporting future.

So @rfisher question still stands for me. I don't understand why didn't they used other labs, meaning none in Russia? It may not be the only issue but it is an important issue for which I haven't seen an answer.

 

[caseyedwards]

According to NYT article:

As part of the resolution of that case, Russia agreed to provide a set of testing results to doping regulators from its Moscow laboratory. It is that database, which Russia was found to have manipulated, that is at the heart of a crisis that threatens its sporting future.

So @rfisher question still stands for me. I don't understand why didn't they used other labs, meaning none in Russia? It may not be the only issue but it is an important issue for which I haven't seen an answer.

The lab was entirely legitimate and operated properly! There was nothing wrong with the lab. Then the reports from the lab were falsified. The lab found athlete A doped. Someone in Russian government got the list and changed it to athlete A didn't dope! WADA got the real results from the lab from a leaker! A whistleblower! So WADA already had the list of failed test. WADA wanted to see if Russia would hand it over officially. They didn’t. They faked the list even knowing WADA had the real one. Then try to say rodchenkov gave them the fake list. The fake list was first. The whistleblower was fake. Or that Rodchenkov doctored the list not Russia. They haven’t agreed on what happened yet

 

[BittyBug]

According to NYT article:

As part of the resolution of that case, Russia agreed to provide a set of testing results to doping regulators from its Moscow laboratory. It is that database, which Russia was found to have manipulated, that is at the heart of a crisis that threatens its sporting future.

So @rfisher question still stands for me. I don't understand why didn't they used other labs, meaning none in Russia? It may not be the only issue but it is an important issue for which I haven't seen an answer.

The preceding paragraph indicates that they are referring to the results from Sochi:

What has angered many is Russia’s mendacity in the face of efforts to rehabilitate the country after whistle-blower evidence helped unravel a meticulously planned — and ultimately successful — scheme in which Russian antidoping experts and members of the country’s intelligence service surreptitiously replaced urine samples tainted by performance-enhancing drugs with clean urine at the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia.

"As part of the resolution of that case....."

Again, it's the cover up that was the tipping point.

 

[Amantide]

"As part of the resolution of that case....."

Again, it's the cover up that was the tipping point.

I get that. I wanted to know if it was clear, first, if and who was doped.

The lab was entirely legitimate and operated properly! There was nothing wrong with the lab. Then the reports from the lab were falsified. The lab found athlete A doped. Someone in Russian government got the list and changed it to athlete A didn't dope! WADA got the real results from the lab from a leaker! A whistleblower! So WADA already had the list of failed test. WADA wanted to see if Russia would hand it over officially. They didn’t. They faked the list even knowing WADA had the real one. Then try to say rodchenkov gave them the fake list. The fake list was first. The whistleblower was fake. Or that Rodchenkov doctored the list not Russia. They haven’t agreed on what happened yet

Ok, this is more clear. So "He's lying. No, you're lying" sort of thing. What a mess. lol

 

[Tinami Amori]

ETA: also, I don't even understand WHY they did it. In the worst case, some more sportsmen would have had banned. Big deal, given it was already 5 years ago, and those athletes probably mostly retired anyway. Although now the entire team is compromised.
The worst part is, they are so dumb, they couldn't even cheat properly without being caught. Unbelievable idiots.

I am going to highlight your segment of the post, because it makes the most reason as to what's going on.

I've posted this in Russian topic, but will re-post again.
---
(first of all: Relax people, it's not WWIII... like an old saying "and that shall pass".

• The ban will not affect 2020 spring events in skating, not enough time to process the whole thing administratively (that's another long subject).
• When implemented, it will not affect any FS GP events in Russia as they do not qualify for "major int'l", and there were no WC or EC planned in Russia during next 4 years.)

The "core of the problem" with data manipulation are "individual interests", although the manipulation was arranged by "individuals" who are working for a Russian government agency, so that's a gray area "individuals" vs. "government employees".

The data that was manipulated, in the period of 2018/early 2019 before the files were turned over, is for few individuals, mostly former athletes, who are holding prominent positions currently, and can not have their reputation dismissed. Those who manipulated "the data" were given "private interest incentive" to manipulate it, by "private individuals" benefiting from it.

Until recently, the "National Pride and Medals" that was the driving force behind whatever "questionable" might have taken place in Russian Sports Federations and ROC. These officials were interested in doing "what's best and how to win" because they received bonuses, salary increases, other benefits when "their Federation won medals".

There were always internal games and manipulations between coaches and athletes, with in their own club, or with competing clubs, using mostly influence and personal connections. But the bottom line for the Federations were to advance the athletes who can WIN medals, because that sports Federation would get the most benefits, which became pay raises, travel benefits, bonuses, etc.

Recently there is a new "thing" - private sponsors, show/events/publicity money, from which Sports Feds to receive a cut into their budget, but given it is "private business interests" who contribute the most, there is also a possibility of "pay offs and kick backs" from whatever athletes receive. Certain sponsors are interest in keeping certain athletes afloat and/or their reputation clean, even if they are former athletes.

If before russian sports feds benefited the most from "sending the best" and "protecting the best", now it is about "individuals and how much they get from another individual or an entity".

What happened with data manipulation is simply this "former athletes who had issues with data" came to "individuals in a government agency" and paid them to manipulate the data from past events. The individuals in the government agency receive basic salaries, nothing compared to "huge money" others make in front of them, the bonuses are petty in comparison. They act and think "every man for himself", today they have the position, tomorrow they won't, so let's make all the money possible now.

If Russian officials were smart, they would single out these individuals and make a public corruption case out of this situation.

 

[hanca]

So if I understand correctly, Russian athletes will still be able to compete at major events, but not under the Russian flag?

How does that work then? There are quotas of skaters per country, but if the skaters don’t skate for the country, are there any limits on their numbers? Otherwise Russia could send all 18 ladies from Russian nationals (even if they don’t skate for Russia).

 

[mjb52]

For me, my issue is that the way WADA has handled this with no explanation to individual athletes of why they specifically are not allowed to participate and the fact that some want a blanket ban on all athletes regardless of whether they are accused of doping in any way makes it hard for me to trust that this is being handled in a fair and impartial way that is respectful of the individual human beings who are impacted by these decisions who - like all of us - deserve to be judged as individuals for their own actions, not collectively as responsible for the actions of others. I am going to take a break from this board from the rest of the season because otherwise there is no way I eventually won't post something I'll later regret. I hope you guys enjoy euros/4ccs/Worlds.

 

[taz'smum]

So @rfisher question still stands for me. I don't understand why didn't they used other labs, meaning none in Russia? It may not be the only issue but it is an important issue for which I haven't seen an answer.

It is a question of logistics. How do you get the samples from Russia to the European testing sites within the required 24 hour window?

 

[Tinami Amori]

For me, my issue is that the way WADA has handled this with no explanation to individual athletes of why they specifically are not allowed to participate and the fact that some want a blanket ban on all athletes regardless of whether they are accused of doping in any way makes it hard for me to trust that this is being handled in a fair and impartial way that is respectful of the individual human beings who are impacted by these decisions who - like all of us - deserve to be judged as individuals for their own actions, not collectively as responsible for the actions of others. I am going to take a break from this board from the rest of the season because otherwise there is no way I eventually won't post something I'll later regret. I hope you guys enjoy euros/4ccs/Worlds.

Look...... just because there is a stumble, it is no reason to give up on the sport you like.. if you do this with a hobby, just think how such attitude will affect important things in life. So there is a problem..... it will be solved eventually.

The problem is that Russian sports federations and agencies are officially part of "government entities". In many countries these agencies are "private" and in Russia (and few other countries) they are "government subsidized".

Yes, it gives "Russia haters" a reason to call these situations "government sponsored", but technically they are not "privately run agencies".

After 2018 Olympics Russian "entities" were given an opportunity to "fix it all", but instead there was another blunt manipulation. Yes, it was "individuals doing it to benefit individuals" but still they were part of "government entity".

If, for example, in a "western city", there is a corruption case inside, lets say "city public transport" which is a government organization, a group of people (as an example) were caught in a ticket selling fraud. The headlines would be "City Transport X is involved in fraud". Then the "City Transport X" would start a case against "individuals involved in fraud", and the headlines would be "City Transport X finds and punishes the wrong doers". So the emphasis from "City-level corruption" moves to "individuals with in the organization".

It has not happened in Russia yet. Although Rusads did show that they have no involvement in the data manipulation, they were not in charge of the data at the time, and WADA has no issues with Rusada, but they need to punish someone, and Russian side has not identified and punished the individuals involved, so what can WADA do?

 

[Tinami Amori]

It is a question of logistics. How do you get the samples from Russia to the European testing sites within the required 24 hour window?

You hire this European group, to set up testing site in Russia, strictly with foreign employees and the site under their control with WADA's approval, and pay them whatever you have to.

 

[angi]

For me, my issue is that the way WADA has handled this with no explanation to individual athletes of why they specifically are not allowed to participate and the fact that some want a blanket ban on all athletes regardless of whether they are accused of doping in any way makes it hard for me to trust that this is being handled in a fair and impartial way that is respectful of the individual human beings who are impacted by these decisions who - like all of us - deserve to be judged as individuals for their own actions, not collectively as responsible for the actions of others. I am going to take a break from this board from the rest of the season because otherwise there is no way I eventually won't post something I'll later regret. I hope you guys enjoy euros/4ccs/Worlds.

Do we actually know for a fact that there was no explanation for individual athletes? I know that Bukin, for example, said there weren't but I also doubt they would have disclosed it if they were given a reason and I assume that Wada can't comment about issues of individuals as to not violate their privacy so they can't really refute those claims.

 

[taz'smum]

You hire this European group, to set up testing site in Russia, strictly with foreign employees and the site under their control with WADA's approval, and pay them whatever you have to.

I'm not sure it's that simple, as the European group would need a secure testing site in Russia, and you can bet WADA would say that any site set up on Russian soil would be suspect.

 

[Gris]

Do we actually know for a fact that there was no explanation for individual athletes? I know that Bukin, for example, said there weren't but I also doubt they would have disclosed it if they were given a reason and I assume that Wada can't comment about issues of individuals as to not violate their privacy so they can't really refute those claims.

Ivan Bukin wrote an open letter to the members of IOC

Ivan Bukin wrote an open letter to the members of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) with a request to reconsider the decision on his non-admission to the Olympic Games 2018.

fs-gossips.com

Bukin wrote an open letter to IOC when he was uninvited so I suppose he didn't receive any official explanation. He was also allowed to compete in 2018 Worlds so it seems that the issues he might have were cleared in a month, which is .

 

[Tinami Amori]

I'm not sure it's that simple, as the European group would need a secure testing site in Russia, and you can bet WADA would say that any site set up on Russian soil would be suspect.

There is Minsk, Baku, Kishenev, Tbilisi, Yerevan, Helsinki... not further away than the rest of 2/3 of Russia..