Russia banned from hosting/competing at major international events for 4 years

Tinami Amori

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"Individuals" connected to the government are still "Kremlin entities", and for the matter of fact, we don't know for sure why they acted and whether it was a higher order.
Technically, in a bigger picture, every government entity in Russia can be called "Kremlin entity". Had it been a "higher order" the manipulation would have been done a lot more professionally, without traces left by "mid-level" hackers.

There was interesting information published on russian internet, but it was quickly removed. It mentioned the names (or types) of athletes (former active athletes) the data manipulation was trying to protect, who are now holding respectable positions, and don't need a scandal. These athletes are not current, they have a lot to lose if identified and have enough funds to "hire a few hackers" within.

I personally want them identified and found. Because they intentionally endangered the whole Russian sport. It was not about "protecting national pride" but their own butts.

Personally I find your explanation plausible, but in that case I would expect some higher Russian official to get involved and indeed present this argument in the appeal, with the heads of those "individuals" attached as the exhibit. Starting another round of "it's all a conspiracy against The Wonderful Mother Russia" hysteria is counterproductive and doesn't help the cause either.
I absolutely agree, that it would only be decent, not to mention more effective in the eyes of the world, to find and punish the guilty parties, by the Russian officials themselves. But "western headings" evil-Russia are not helping. Ganus has the intent to pursue in this direction, hopefully he can.

And WADA, as said, does what it can. It can't prosecute those "individuals", so it acts against who it can get, hoping to create the pressure on the "renegade group" connected to the political elites. And it actually might work. Additionally, the requirement now is for "Rusada's independence to be respected without improper outside interference with its operations". Which is easier said than done, but obviously aims at the right target.
If the purpose of WADA is "no doping and no cheating" then judging by how "sanctions don't work", they should know that "political elites" as they are perceived, have little control over "various entities" associated with government. WADA should support Rusada in their efforts to make changes.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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As for sending samples abroad - who will collect them? Who will handle them? WADA and the international staff were present at the Sochi facility, and Russia still managed to switch dirty samples with clean right under everyone’s noses.
Russia has been hosting sporting events while Rusada was banned. AFAIR the samples from Rostelecom were sent to Helsinki. There's no technical problem to do it.

In Sochi the whole organization was made to allow the manipulation. When the event is at an outside venue, there's no such possibility. AFAIK, and correct me if I'm wrong, there was not accusation of a mass doping manipulation on the Russia's side during events outside of the country.
 

PRlady

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No, there hasn't been. Sochi was a mass orgy of misplaced patriotism.

By the way, it would be terrible for everyone else if Russian skaters were banned from Beijing. All the medalists except maybe the men would have asterisks, because some of their strongest competitors weren't there. It's a huge fail for everyone.
 

Karen-W

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So, here is the interesting question I have... if Russian officials/Representatives are banned from serving on any boards or committees of any governing bodies and they are not allowed to participate in any major events or World Championships, then does that mean no Russians on tech panels, or serving as referees/judges at events like Worlds, Euros, 4CCs, or the GPF?

As much as we are bemoaning the impact on athletes possibly being banned with no explanation, isn't it fair to say that banning any Russian officials, judges, etc is also going to have a big impact on the outcome of these events?
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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So, here is the interesting question I have... if Russian officials/Representatives are banned from serving on any boards or committees of any governing bodies and they are not allowed to participate in any major events or World Championships, then does that mean no Russians on tech panels, or serving as referees/judges at events like Worlds, Euros, 4CCs, or the GPF?

As much as we are bemoaning the impact on athletes possibly being banned with no explanation, isn't it fair to say that banning any Russian officials, judges, etc is also going to have a big impact on the outcome of these events?
First of all, in most cases the medalists are pretty obvious and the result is clear enough regardless of the judges' nationalities. If we're talking ladies or pairs, I don't think the presence of a Russian judge would make any difference at all.

Second of all, the judges are not representing the country, nor even they represent the national federation; they represent the ISU, and therefore there's no reason to ban them. For the matter of fact, in 2018 the Russian judges and ISU official were at the Olympics as usual.

And thirdly, Euros, 4CC or GPF are not even part of the ban; the Russians will be able to compete there under the Russian flag as usual. Worlds - not 100% clear right now.
 

Tinami Amori

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So, here is the interesting question I have... if Russian officials/Representatives are banned from serving on any boards or committees of any governing bodies and they are not allowed to participate in any major events or World Championships, then does that mean no Russians on tech panels, or serving as referees/judges at events like Worlds, Euros, 4CCs, or the GPF?

As much as we are bemoaning the impact on athletes possibly being banned with no explanation, isn't it fair to say that banning any Russian officials, judges, etc is also going to have a big impact on the outcome of these events?
Those on ISU board (Lakernik, Klimov, etc.) and judges, russian or not, are employees of ISU. The ban does not say "russian", it says "Russian Official".
 
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thvudragon

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Again, athletes stating they were given no reason doesn't mean that they actually weren't given any reason.
They’re either being honest or all involved in a conspiracy to conceal the truth.

It’s clear that the latter is a distinct possibility for you. As that’s the case, that you question the integrity of all the figure skaters involved, then there’s not much left to discuss.
 

Karen-W

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First of all, in most cases the medalists are pretty obvious and the result is clear enough regardless of the judges' nationalities. If we're talking ladies or pairs, I don't think the presence of a Russian judge would make any difference at all.

Second of all, the judges are not representing the country, nor even they represent the national federation; they represent the ISU, and therefore there's no reason to ban them. For the matter of fact, in 2018 the Russian judges and ISU official were at the Olympics as usual.

And thirdly, Euros, 4CC or GPF are not even part of the ban; the Russians will be able to compete there under the Russian flag as usual. Worlds - not 100% clear right now.
World Championships organized by any signatory to the WADA code are part of the ban. So, there is absolutely no doubt that the Russian team will have to prove themselves clean in order to compete at Worlds. Euros, 4CCs and GPF are in a gray area, I believe. They are considered major championships by the ISU and are organized by the ISU, so it would seem like they fall under the ban but since UEFA isn't considered a major event, then the same logic could apply to Euros/4CCs at minimum. I have no idea where the GPF falls in all of that.
 

Tinami Amori

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They’re either being honest or all involved in a conspiracy to conceal the truth.

It’s clear that the latter is a distinct possibility for you. As that’s the case, that you question the integrity of all the figure skaters involved, then there’s not much left to discuss with you.
If there was anything on Bukin and Stolbova, they would not be allowed to compete in Worlds 2019, but they were allowed (even if Stolbova/Klimov fell apart by that time).
 

Vagabond

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Are you calling Ivan Bukin a liar?
No. I am saying that a person's unsworn statement isn't particularly persuasive, particularly since what he says is in his own interest, not contrary to it. He may be telling the truth, he may be lying, or he may mistaken. And it is especially hard to disprove an assertion where there is no witness or document available to back one up.

If I were to say that I have never been to Ecuador, how would you know whether I was telling the truth?
 
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angi

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They’re either being honest or all involved in a conspiracy to conceal the truth.

It’s clear that the latter is a distinct possibility for you. As that’s the case, that you question the integrity of all the figure skaters involved, then there’s not much left to discuss.
I'm not into conspiracy theories at all, all the figure skaters involved were exactly two figure skaters (who I happen to really like btw). The only thing I was trying to point out is that it won't be that far fetched for them to claim that since it is basically the only thing that can somewhat paint them in a better light in terms of public perception. And tbh I have no expectation from figure skaters to be 100% truthful 100% of the time, just like some conceal injuries in order to control what the public/judges think (in terms of finding them vulnerable) I don't think it's that out of the question for the only two skaters involved to try and salvage their reputation by claiming their innocence.
 

Tinami Amori

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An article from TASS. 66 athletes are suspected in track and field (athletics), 41 in weight-lifting, 2 in taekwondo, 2 in biathlon, 1 in canoe racing, 1 in wrestling.
russian (На сегодняшний день департамент расследований WADA выявил 66 нарушений антидопинговых правил в легкой атлетике, 41 - в тяжелой атлетике, два - в тхэквондо, два - в биатлоне, по одному - в каноэ и борьбе. Все данные о спортсменах были отправлены департаментом разведки и расследований WADA в соответствующие международные федерации).
 

MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
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For me, I heard the rumor that Stepanova had some sort of incident with doping controls in the past, so when the team wasn't invited, I assumed it was because of her past and not his. Therefore, I find it completely believable that WADA didn't give him a reason. But I don't find it completely believable that they don't have at least an idea of why.
 

Tinami Amori

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If I were to say that I have never been to Ecuador, how would you know whether I was telling the truth?
Everyone (from North Am and other countries) departing Ecuador presents the passport, which is scanned and entered into the data base (in the past by hand). The two countries cooperate in security and tourism and many other issues. If this is a high-level enquiry (as with doping data) then such such info can be provided by Boarder Security office.

For me, I heard the rumor that Stepanova had some sort of incident with doping controls in the past, so when the team wasn't invited, I assumed it was because of her past and not his. Therefore, I find it completely believable that WADA didn't give him a reason. But I don't find it completely believable that they don't have at least an idea of why.
But it was not Stepanova who was denied, but Bukin. Stepanova was on the invited list. And it could not have been a typo for the whole team, because female's name is listed first.

the worst i heard about her issues, is she was late for the random routine test call, in off season, but it was a rumor.
 

Vagabond

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First of all, in most cases the medalists are pretty obvious and the result is clear enough regardless of the judges' nationalities. If we're talking ladies or pairs, I don't think the presence of a Russian judge would make any difference at all.
I seem to recall :argue: here over the results of the 1994, 1998, 2002, and 2014 Winter Olympic Ladies Competitions, the 2002 Winter Olympic Pairs Competitions, the 2008 U.S. National Men's Competition, and something to do with Galit Chait, but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me. 🤷‍♂️
 
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VGThuy

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For me, I heard the rumor that Stepanova had some sort of incident with doping controls in the past, so when the team wasn't invited, I assumed it was because of her past and not his. Therefore, I find it completely believable that WADA didn't give him a reason. But I don't find it completely believable that they don't have at least an idea of why.
This is where I am with this too.

As for all the folks asking why they were able to compete at Worlds but not Pyeongchang, if I recall correctly, WADA created a weird situation where the burden of proof to prove the test results were compliant was put on the athletes themselves via their federations and only those who were able to prove it were “invited” to competed and I believe the standards were higher than normal as part of the punishment. For Worlds, it seemed it was the same sort of rules as always where athletes just had to provide samples when called and if something was wrong with their samples after a competition, then results may be altered and medals/titles/placements will be stripped after-the-fact. It was a totally different set up for the Olympics thanks to WADA treating the Olympics differently.
 

starrynight

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Has there been a situation in Russia where one clean Russian athlete felt cheated because another Russian medalist who doped took their medal?

Because often it’s stories like that which are necessary to change public opinion on things like doping.

It needs to get to the point where clean athletes in Russia are demanding change from their sports bodies. And figure skaters are a prime example, being dragged down by other sports.
 

VGThuy

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Has there been a situation in Russia where one clean Russian athlete felt cheated because another Russian medalist who doped took their medal?

Because often it’s stories like that which are necessary to change public opinion on things like doping.
In figure skating, the closest example I could think of off-the-bat was when Klimova/Ponomarenko were nearly banned from competing at 1991 Worlds because one of her drug tests after Euros came back positive but their second sample came back negative. They ended up winning silver while Usova/Zhulin won bronze. I know K/P maintained their innocence and felt their shared coach, Natalia Dubova, did not show enough support for them when they were going through that and felt she wanted them out of the way for U/Z. I always wondered how U/Z felt.
 

Tinami Amori

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So the head of RUSADA himself says there's a problem in the Russian sports world, a problem of culture, that in Russia's authoritative system can only be solved from the top down, i.e. by Putin. First of all, he's a brave man and :respec: from me. But it also says that the "corrupt individuals" theory is also flawed, if Ganus himself admits to a systemic problem.
No. Ganus did not say "systematic problem with doping" (as of today). He said "systematic problem" in addressing the issues and taking direct actions. There are different reasons usually for such, from "encouragement" to "approval" to "indifference" to "avoiding dealing with it for other reasons". All are wrong, but there is a difference.. "hopping it goes away and not bothering to take time with it" is not the same as "promoting" it.

Putin can not handle this himself directly. He can by law delegate the issue to the responsible organization - Ministry of Sports of Russian Federation, Mr. Pavel Kolobkov.

... and i will die laughing how "Pavel Kolobkov" will handle "investigating corruption" (starting with himself... :D). But the today's issue with data manipulation is not linked to any sports authorities directly. they need to search in another organization.. :lol:
 
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PRlady

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No. Ganus did not say "systematic problem with doping" (as of today). He said "systematic problem" in addressing the issues and taking direct actions. There are different reasons usually for such, from "encouragement" to "approval" to "indifference" to "avoiding dealing with it for other reasons". All are wrong, but there is a difference.. "hopping it goes away and not bothering to take time with it" is not the same as "promoting" it.

Putin can not handle this himself directly. He can by law delegate the issue to the responsible organization - Ministry of Sports of Russian Federation, Mr. Pavel Kolobkov.

... and i will die laughing how "Pavel Kolobkov" will handle "investigating corruption" (starting with himself... :D). But the today's issue with data manipulation is not linked to any sports authorities directly. they need to search in another organization.. :lol:
We can interpret“systemic problem of culture” as not pursuing or cleaning up wrongdoing, as you like. I obviously don’t read Russian. But that’s as bad as a “culture of doping” because it means all wrongdoing by elite athletes who could win medals is greeted with a nod and a shrug, officially. Meaning other kinds of wrongdoing, from bribing officials to violent or sexual misbehavior, wou also probably be covered up.

Certainly this second round of punishment is all about official representatives of the Russian sports Federation concealing data and treating WADA with contempt. I don’t know how they thought they were going to get away with it, it’s mind boggling. If the Sports Minister is himself corrupt, who can be held accountable?
 

Tinami Amori

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President of WADA, Craig Reidy, at the end of today's session, said:

"Rusada will continue to conduct test for the Russian athletes" - said Reidy.
"The legitimacy of such decision lays in the fact that we have full cooperation from Rusada".
(alt translation: The legality of this situation lays in the fact that on both sides we have like-minded people).
"We want Rusada to continue to do as good of job in the future as it has done so far" - added Reidy.

In the report to the committee it is stated by WADA that Rusada's work in the anti-doping effort in Russia has been effective and the russian agency (Rusada) had a productive cooperation with other anti-doping agencies, including cooperation in uncovering doping cases on Russian territory.

in russian ("РУСАДА продолжит тестировать российских спортсменов в России, - сказал Риди. - Законность такой ситуации заключается в том, что мы имеем дело с нашим единомышленником в России".
"Мы хотим, чтобы РУСАДА продолжало работать так же хорошо, как сейчас", - добавил он.
В докладе комитета по соответствию WADA утверждается, что работа РУСАДА по борьбе с допингом в российском спорте была эффективной, российское агентство плодотворно работало с другими антидопинговыми организациями, в том числе по вопросам расследования допинговых дел на территории России.)
 

Tinami Amori

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We can interpret“systemic problem of culture” as not pursuing or cleaning up wrongdoing, as you like. I obviously don’t read Russian. But that’s as bad as a “culture of doping” because it means all wrongdoing by elite athletes who could win medals is greeted with a nod and a shrug, officially. Meaning other kinds of wrongdoing, from bribing officials to violent or sexual misbehavior, wou also probably be covered up.
You're bringing your own issues and ideology you have against Russia, into a very specific issue on its own. Other issues are not linked to Russian ban, this specific one is.

You don't need to speak Russian. The article you posted is in English. Ganus specifically says the problem is with "administrative process, bureaucracy and not willing to make effort" and not "encouraging doping".

Ganus said he hoped President Vladimir Putin, who has yet to comment on WADA’s recommendations to punish Russia, would order serious reform of the country’s sports administration.

“In our country with these traditions, autocratic and bureaucratic, the presidential level is needed to make decisions to change,” he said. “I really hope that the time has come for serious changes.”
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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"It's dangerous but it's my mission," the head of RUSADA told AFP, asked if he felt afraid after assigning blame to the sports ministry and Russian law enforcement.
...
In speeches and articles, he has called for President Vladimir Putin to intervene and attacked the sports minister, Pavel Kolobkov.
This despite the fact that two ex-chiefs of RUSADA, Vyacheslav Sinev and Nikita Kamayev, died suddenly within two weeks of each other in 2016 and the former head of Russia's anti-doping laboratory, Grigory Rodchenkov, lives in hiding in the United States.
Sports minister Kolobkov doesn't hide his irritation at Ganus, a compelling communicator who is comfortable dealing with the media.
"The manipulation the head of RUSADA is talking about does not exist," Kolobkov said last month.
In his Moscow office, Ganus showed off a poster representing RUSADA as an icebreaker ship clearing a path for a crowd of clean athletes.
The tall, grey-haired 55-year-old, who can easily switch from a charming smile to an intimidating glare, did not come from a sports background.
 

PRlady

Nerdy flack
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You're bringing your own issues and ideology you have against Russia, into a very specific issue on its own. Other issues are not linked to Russian ban, this specific one is.

You don't need to speak Russian. The article you posted is in English. Ganus specifically says the problem is with "administrative process, bureaucracy and not willing to make effort" and not "encouraging doping".

Ganus said he hoped President Vladimir Putin, who has yet to comment on WADA’s recommendations to punish Russia, would order serious reform of the country’s sports administration.

“In our country with these traditions, autocratic and bureaucratic, the presidential level is needed to make decisions to change,” he said. “I really hope that the time has come for serious changes.”
Fine, I’ll keep my “Russian bias” out of it, and commend Ganus for literally risking his ****ing life to clean things up, per what Sylvia just posted. I suppose mysterious deaths are also part of the bureaucratic process.
 

barbarafan

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Most whistle-blowers are complicit in what they're blowing the whistle on; that's how they know about it in the first place. Every western legal system has a provision of granting immunity to the folks turning state's evidence, from Mafia trials in the US to the many, many, MANY former close associates of Netanyahu now testifying against him (and responsible for the corruption indictments.) And every time, the defense points to the rat or whistle-blower and says, he was in it too, how can you trust him? (This is not true of Trump's whistle-blower but was true, for example, in the lawsuits against the tobacco industry. See the movie The Insider.)

So Rodchenkov might have been the chief rat but without him WADA wouldn't have the evidence it needed of actual wrongdoing, nobody was going to put him in jail.
So true....The scheme was so well thought it it would never have been discovered. The fact that he only exposed the scheme when 2 men involved were murdered to keep from exposing the scheme does not eliminate the fact that he did let Wada know what had happened and exactly how it was done.
 

Tinami Amori

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Fine, I’ll keep my “Russian bias” out of it, and commend Ganus for literally risking his ****ing life to clean things up, per what Sylvia just posted. I suppose mysterious deaths are also part of the bureaucratic process.
Ganus is not risking his life, in the position he is in now. He displeased Kolobkov, but that guy is an ass and i said that above. Ganus is doing the right thing and WADA recognizes it. I don't see a point of argument. Ganus' quotes are in the english article. He is talking about lack of action, not current encouragement of doping.

Mysterious deaths is also an issue from 2016, as horrid as they are, not relevant to "data manipulation between 2018 and 2019", after Rusada was reinstated and now suspended again.

The deaths of Kamaev and Sinev is a very complex issue. Rochenkov and Kamaev were in cahoots. Rodchenkov was facing consequences even before he left to USA. He was accused of black mailing athletes whom he (and his sister) sold various substances, threatening to expose them and to not hide their infractions/violations. He was simply fired from his position, because while "inside Russian sports entities" his actions created outrage, the authorities did not want to make it an international scandal. Kamaev said he was going to write a book about "every thing" and it would have exposed Rodchenkov a lot more than a "pretty story" he gave to the West in order to save his butt. Viacheslav Sinev was an opposition to Rodchenkov and was speaking out for an arrest warrant for Rodchenkov with the most harshest punishment for "treason", he was not to be a whistle-blower of any sorts. He had info that would have added to Rodchenkov's former sins that even the "west" would have had to consider. It's a complicated issue, very complicated..
 

barbarafan

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Again, athletes stating they were given no reason doesn't mean that they actually weren't given any reason. Did we expect them to come out and say "they told me I'm suspended for failing a test after competition X" for example? It's pretty obvious it's not in their best interest to come out and say it. My point is that while the athletes said they were given no reason it doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
As for Bukin being banned from the Olympics and allowed to attend Worlds, I agree it's odd but assuming it was the same with other athletes in different sports it's not really saying much.
I have always wondered if Bukin's name came up because although he was not at the Olympics he was a competition prior which was used as a dry run test of the scheme. It is entirely possible that he did a urine test and it was used by the crooks as a test case...ie the winner was doped and Bukin's test was switched with his so the winner passed. It could have turned up with some of samples of cheating they had and Bukin's dna was matched with the winner's test. In that case Bukin was clean but if his urine turned up in the wrong place (even though he had no idea it happened)they could have felt he should be punished. There is prob. dozens of scenarios where such a thing could happen. They even subbed urine from the opposite sex in some samples and not all the samples they tested were human.
 

PRlady

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That is interesting, Tinami. Are you suggesting that these murders were not done by instruments or allies of the government, despite the long list of former diplomats, journalists and political opponents who have also died mysteriously?
 

Jammers

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6,598
These idiotic bans on Russian amount to nothing more then finger wagging. Russian athletes will still be able to compete and know that Russia still won. The only way to stop this nonsense and hit Putin and his gang where it hurts is to ban them from competing period. Russia prides itself on how good they are in sports and while i would love to see them in Tokyo getting stomped by the US again in the Summer Olympics as they have been since 1996 enough is enough. Yes clean athletes will be punished and that's not right but those athletes should demand that there government and sports officials stop with this bullshit cheating and stop acting like the victim.
 

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