Russia banned from hosting/competing at major international events for 4 years

Tinami Amori

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19,318
That is interesting, Tinami. Are you suggesting that these murders were not done by instruments or allies of the government, despite the long list of former diplomats, journalists and political opponents who have also died mysteriously?
I am not commenting on all mysterious murders that take place in Russia or anywhere in the world.

My point is more general, in regards to sports. It is a mistake to think of what's going on in Russia in the old terms of "Soviet Union" when everything was done "for the pride of the Nation" by an organized government effort from the top.

There are internal, strictly individualistic efforts, which come from individuals, which yes, can be in management positions inside a government entity. Also, such "individuals" maybe working in different entities, and the fight/contest for "something" is between a few people, representing different organizations and using the resources of these organizations. And, sometimes it is the "fight" between two organizations within the Russian system, using "individuals" to gain something.

Viacheslav Sinev, for example, was all pro-Russian, anti-Rodchenkov loud and clear. He was not a danger of "exposing the Russian system", but if he would speak out against Rodhenkov, he would expose few individuals as well, who might have been working for organizations with some resources. While the "west" does not need to care about "inside struggles and games", all they want is no doping, it is still important to note that these actions are pretty much from "individuals" inside some "organizations". It's been going in that direction for some time now... "grab what you can now, because your job may not last too long".

The problem is that in order to avoid "international exposure" on the Russian side there is a reluctance to investigate "internal issues", not because they "condone the actions" in many cases, but because they don't want to give more sticks to the "fire against Russia".

What WADA's Reidy said about Ganus is great - that WADA will support him in his efforts. Those who are willing to fight in Russia need to be supported. But it is hard if the "west" yells "all Russians are cheaters", it does not help those who want to fight.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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36,482
My point is more general, in regards to sports. It is a mistake to think of what's going on in Russia in the old terms of "Soviet Union" when everything was done "for the pride of the Nation" by an organized government effort from the top.
But Ganus has kind of said that it is. That there are people in charge who still have that mentality and it is they who are doing the bad things because they still think that way.

I understand that people involved don't want to stir up more dirty laundry to be used against Russia but I think they are miscalculating. It should be possible to find a few people involved and punish them and hold that up as an example of how Russia doesn't condone cheating! It would be good PR for the NGBs for various sports in Russia and it could turn the story around.
 

Tinami Amori

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19,318
But Ganus has kind of said that it is. That there are people in charge who still have that mentality and it is they who are doing the bad things because they still think that way.

I understand that people involved don't want to stir up more dirty laundry to be used against Russia but I think they are miscalculating. It should be possible to find a few people involved and punish them and hold that up as an example of how Russia doesn't condone cheating! It would be good PR for the NGBs for various sports in Russia and it could turn the story around.
Ganus said that about "not willing to act" to stop it, but that's for a number of reasons, it's not longer "the National pride issue" for many, still for some... but for others it is "personal", not losing the position, or various benefits..

It's like this in many issues in Russia including in sports. Before it was "we are one team" in the eyes of the world, now the clubs, the coaches, the skaters "in fight" with each other, willing to involve the "west" if it helps them get ahead. It's now "enemy of my enemy = friend", vs. old style "we the soviets against the world".

Very few now doing something "for the glory of Russia".... :D even if they say it.
 
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Seerek

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5,399
What's also not clear is if this changes the way by which multiple berths can be earned for a following Worlds/Olympics. Does "Team Neutral" still earn 3 berths for 13 or less placements?
 

PRlady

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35,152
I’m not doubting that you have some insights into how Russia is operating now, Tinami. It comports with with the (ha) Wild West atmosphere there I’ve read about elsewhere.

But this isn’t a problem of western media coverage, if Putin gave a damn about that, our political relationships would be different. Even if a few individuals are largely responsible for this disaster, they are compromising thousands of innocent athletes. That Putin let them get away with this not once but twice is...hard to believe.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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7,796
This is what I wonder about. There must be some punishment for Russia’s actions, but either athletes like Bukin are clean, and they were not allowed to participate in the Olympics, or they’re not and shouldn’t be allowed to compete at Worlds, either. That, to me, needs an explanation.
I suppose, on the plus side, there is now time. If Ivan and Nikita have to make an argument and have an argument to make, then there is more time now for that possibility than there was directly before Korea.

On the one hand, I feel for the innocent athletes. On the other, I feel even more for the athletes who were cheated.

If I was Pechalat & Bourzat, for example, and heard that Nikita was off the list, I would want to know if that was relevant to his performance in Sochi and if that Olympic bronze medal should be mine.

:drama: Ice dance is such a drama-less discipline.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
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2,512
In figure skating if only we could urine and blood test the judges for cheating by corruption. Lie detector tests perhaps?
 
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Tinami Amori

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19,318
I’m not doubting that you have some insights into how Russia is operating now, Tinami. It comports with with the (ha) Wild West atmosphere there I’ve read about elsewhere.
I don't even want to talk about it in details. I've been working in Russia/with Russia since 1990..... through "wild 1990's", through "settling 2000's", through "upside down" 2010's". 90's were nuts but promising, 00's were feeling better but shaky, 10's are a big head-ache now. Fortunately i have 2 years i gave myself and then i am off to live for myself and no more working.. :lol: Situations no longer make sense.. and many people in Russia are also "confused". It was a "Wild East" in the 90's, and it was a lot of fun for those who like adventure, now it is some form of dystopia.. :D

But this isn’t a problem of western media coverage.
Of course the core problem is not western media coverage. But this is how it often works on many issues. I'll give primitive example from far away.
  • A child does something wrong. Mother learns of it, and spanks the day light out of him, or at least scolds.
  • A child does something wrong. Before mother hears of it, a neighbor tells the mother "your kids is horrible, needs to be punished, you're a terrible mother, how could you let this happen, i had to spank your child". Mother immediately defends her child, kicks the neighbor out, telling him it is none of your business, don't teach me, i'll handle my child myself. When child comes home, she teaches him to avoid this neighbor, stay out of his face/eyes, and ask if he was hurt when the neighbor spanked him.

another example. King and I. Anna advises the King that he and his court needs to be more "western" when the British guests arrive. King is resentful of the comment, and asks Anna "well, what do we need to do to please them". Anna knows if she tells him what to do, he'll resist. So Anna says "I am sure the great King already knows what to do, because he is wise. And because he is wise, he will do the following....... ". And what does the King said? "Yes, me the wise King would do exactly that"..... :D

Bush said "Mr. Gorbachev made wise decision and helped to bring the wall down". He did not say "we won the cold war, out-financed you, and you now have no choice"... :lol: What was Bush's goal, to bring down Iron Curtain, or to make Soviets feel bad? To bring down the Curtain, and he found a way to do it, by letting soviets save face..

It's not Russia, nobody likes to hear "you're bad, we going to make you do this", but rather "you're smart enough to do the right thing". Ganus now needs this kind of support. Because the "western press" only gives a reason for many to not think about issues, but to feel "patriotic".

if Putin gave a damn about that, our political relationships would be different. Even if a few individuals are largely responsible for this disaster, they are compromising thousands of innocent athletes. That Putin let them get away with this not once but twice is...hard to believe.
I am not going to discuss "politics". But on the doping/cover up and what Putin can do. Putin holds regular meetings where a group of advisers bring him reports about many issues. He reads/hears these reports. He does not read every detail on every issues on social media, or in general. What is reported by advisers is what he goes by, on most issues. If he is given a report "WADA is attacking Russia again because of some data base issues", this is what he goes by, sports is not the major issue now. Advisers do not always report all the details, or do report them in a way to protect their "departments". They too want to show that all is fine in their territory, and if there is a problem, it will be solved, or not their fault.

I have no idea what Putin will do specially on this issue. But would not be surprised if he picks up the phone, calls Kolobkov (minister of sports) and say "You have a mess over there, take care of it now", or already done so. Nobody in his position would drop the issues of the State and start reading details, logistics, circumstances, and fine details of this situation, so that he himself can find a solution.

So at best, it would be in Kolobkov's or other top official's hands, and they might delegate it to their subordinates, to research when/who/how/why manipulated the last set of data. And etc... In the mean time, the western press is publishing headlines "evil Russia", and Russian top officials in sports and other areas are commenting on it as "Russophobia".
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
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19,318
I suppose, on the plus side, there is now time. If Ivan and Nikita have to make an argument and have an argument to make, then there is more time now for that possibility than there was directly before Korea.

On the one hand, I feel for the innocent athletes. On the other, I feel even more for the athletes who were cheated.

If I was Pechalat & Bourzat, for example, and heard that Nikita was off the list, I would want to know if that was relevant to his performance in Sochi and if that Olympic bronze medal should be mine.

:drama: Ice dance is such a drama-less discipline.
you forgot one detail, Rodchenkov said to WADA/investigators before 2018 Olys not to bother with Figure Skaters, none were involved.
 

RoseRed

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1,695
First of all, in most cases the medalists are pretty obvious and the result is clear enough regardless of the judges' nationalities. If we're talking ladies or pairs, I don't think the presence of a Russian judge would make any difference at all.

Second of all, the judges are not representing the country, nor even they represent the national federation; they represent the ISU, and therefore there's no reason to ban them. For the matter of fact, in 2018 the Russian judges and ISU official were at the Olympics as usual.

And thirdly, Euros, 4CC or GPF are not even part of the ban; the Russians will be able to compete there under the Russian flag as usual. Worlds - not 100% clear right now.
I was under the impression that the technical panel represents the ISU, but the judges represent their country/federation. That's why they list the tech panel with an ISU flag and the judges with their national flags.
 

caseyedwards

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14,520
The big question is if there’s anything russia can do to get the punishment removed by doing some action
 

Vagabond

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AngieNikodinovLove

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Good Lord, cant a guy go away skiing for the weekend without so many hot topic posts being made...... Man.....

This is something I want to sit down and dissect!

Wow......
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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61,694
ISU's statement was published today: https://www.isu.org/isu-news/news/1...e-russian-anti-doping-agency?templateParam=15

The ISU acknowledges the December 9, 2019 decision of the WADA Executive Committee unanimously endorsing a four year period of non-compliance for the Russian Anti-Doping Agency and related consequences.

As indicated by the WADA Media Release of December 9, the ISU, same as other stakeholders, will liaise with WADA to clarify the next steps while bearing in mind that the case may still be appealed to the Court of Arbitration of Sport (CAS). This will involve in particular, but not limited to, the definition of “Major Events”, the identification and formalization of a list of concerned athletes not allowed to participate in Major Events staged in the Four-Year-Period and other sanction related practical details.

The ISU noted that given the timing, the sanctions will not apply for the Winter Youth Olympic Games in Lausanne/Switzerland during January 2020.

The ISU will inform its Members and stakeholders as soon as the above-mentioned clarification process with WADA allows to do so.
 

Debbie S

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12,248
So the ISU will decide what constitutes "major event" and could conceivably ban any Russian athlete not on the approved list from competing over 4 years? So, theoretically, the GPs and Challengers could be classified as "major", although I doubt they would.

I would hope that the athletes involved at least get an explanation of their 'blacklisting' and have the opportunity to appeal. I remember Bukin's letter and I believe him...notice that Stolbova didn't submit a letter...I suspect she knew the explanation and that Bukin didn't, b/c why would he go to all the trouble? I don't have a problem with banning the Russian flag/name, I don't even object to banning Russian athletes (yes, I know it would be terrible for the athletes and they didn't cause this but if that's what it takes to get Russia to follow the rules), b/c in those cases, the athletes/fed are being treated equally. If they are going to have a standard for athletes and ban those who tested positive or didn't cooperate with drug testing, fine, but the process should be clear. If Bukin is banned from competing and doesn't know and isn't told why and is denied due process, that's a problem.
 

coppertop1

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1,379
I have mixed feelings. Russia does need to clean up it's act but I would be very sad if the punishment meant the 3As, Valieva and many other Russians who have done nothing wrong wee banned. What is the best solution?
 

Vagabond

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16,343
I have mixed feelings. Russia does need to clean up it's act but I would be very sad if the punishment meant the 3As, Valieva and many other Russians who have done nothing wrong wee banned. What is the best solution?
Why would they be banned? It's far more likely that they will compete as individual athletes instead of representatives of Russia.
 

Willin

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2,133
@coppertop1 They can still compete, just not under the Russian flag. I assume it will be like Pyeongchang where athletes with no past positive results will be allowed to compete if they cooperate with testing.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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10,276
@coppertop1 They can still compete, just not under the Russian flag. I assume it will be like Pyeongchang where athletes with no past positive results will be allowed to compete if they cooperate with testing.
And some were randomly not invited without being given any reasons...
 

Willin

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@hanca I see people use this argument all the time, but how do we know it was random reasons? Yes, transparency in the process is best, but not required. As for why the athletes themselves don't know why they were banned (eg. Bukin), WADA communicates with the federation, organizing body, or sporting event at large, not the individual. They aren't required to provide an explanation to the individual athletes and just because the organizing body chooses not to include them doesn't mean they have to tell the athlete why (whether that's fair or not).
 

hanca

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@hanca I see people use this argument all the time, but how do we know it was random reasons? Yes, transparency in the process is best, but not required. As for why the athletes themselves don't know why they were banned (eg. Bukin), WADA communicates with the federation, organizing body, or sporting event at large, not the individual. They aren't required to provide an explanation to the individual athletes and just because the organizing body chooses not to include them doesn't mean they have to tell the athlete why (whether that's fair or not).
We are going in circles here. I really admire your trust in WADA, but until there is transparency, I honestly don’t believe that the majority of non invited athletes have done anything wrong.
 

LarrySK8

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An example of how teens can handle this type of news is how the 1980 US Gymnasts reacted to the boycott then. They had their trials. The video is on YouTube.

There was no hysteria, just a support of country.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
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We are going in circles here. I really admire your trust in WADA, but until there is transparency, I honestly don’t believe that the majority of non invited athletes have done anything wrong.
I don't have a particular trust in WADA - from what I know, this organization is the best example of over-bureaucratization working hard to justify its existence.

But it's hard to find anyone less trustworthy than the Russian officials. And while Bukin and Stolbova almost certainly did nothing wrong, there's little doubt it's because doping is useless in figure skating rather than because figure skaters are somehow generally better human beings. There have been some well defined guidelines by WADA, based on the information they had, and apart from a few exceptions (Bukin and Stolbova among them), most of the disqualified athletes, whether they really did something wrong or not, fell within those guidelines.

So yeah, while it's possible that some sportsmen have been mistreated, it's not WADA that started this sh*tfire but the Russian sport officials and politicians.
 

barbarafan

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4,753
I’m not doubting that you have some insights into how Russia is operating now, Tinami. It comports with with the (ha) Wild West atmosphere there I’ve read about elsewhere.

But this isn’t a problem of western media coverage, if Putin gave a damn about that, our political relationships would be different. Even if a few individuals are largely responsible for this disaster, they are compromising thousands of innocent athletes. That Putin let them get away with this not once but twice is...hard to believe.
Sorry but can you imagine anyone cooking up something like that behind Putin's back??? Puhlese.... they would have had sudden heart attacks before the Olympics if that were the case not when they started writing the story on an everyday computer after the Olympics.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
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I would be very surprised if Putin personally knew about the scheme or guided how to do it. Because why.

It was much simplier. He called the minister of sport, and said: "Minister of sport, this event is very important to Russia's greatness. You have unlimited resources, do whatever you need to get medals and make the plebs happy". And the minister of sport answered: "Yes, sir!"(in Russian, of course). And then the minister of sport called the vice-minister of sport, and said: "....."

You get the idea. Somewhere along this very long chain of people who feared to lose their seat, someone had the brilliant idea to develop the doping scheme. And given the negative selection in the Russian political elite, I'm really not surprised that this story spectacularly blew up in their faces.

Obviously, admitting that there was cheating would harm Putin politically, because someone might have started wondering what happened to all those billions, so the Russian officials couldn't just admit or fire some major figure. I'm pretty sure some people lost their jobs along the line, somewhere closer to the lower tiers, we just don't know about them.

It's much less clear why instead of just closing this whole nonsense by providing WADA with documents, the Russians instead altered the database. Tinami's theory makes much more sense than involvement of central government this time. We don't know yet who is going to be blamed and what will be the results of it, I definitely see the possibility of finding some random scapegoat who would get blamed and publicly executed or whatever. And I am willing to bet the last of my rubles, on some point someone will blame the foreign secret agencies in altering the database in order to compromise the Russians.
 

kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
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So, theoretically, the GPs and Challengers could be classified as "major", although I doubt they would.
Not that the ISU hasn't juggled before, but since they have been so protective of the GP, which it owns, and they are the source of substantial prize money for GP and GPF -- 2018-19 GPF champions received 25K, compared to 21/30 for 2019 Euros and 4C's -- I want to see this rationalization.
 

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