The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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muffinplus

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That's ... very condescending. You're more or less saying that people who like their FD are idiots (or fools).

FWIW, I went in excepting to hate the FD. I thought the idea sounded pretentious and the poem was very trite. Wasn't sure what I thought the first time I watched it, then I watched it again a couple weeks later and I loved it. So did my father, who thought the idea sounded awful. Neither of us have ever been huge P/C fans, though we appreciate the quality of their skating. Is that me "eating it"?

And the idea that "they're openly laughing at us" is absurd. You can like or dislike the FD, but it's quite clear to me that they believe in their material. You can think they're pretentious for it, or whatever, but seriously.

I think that "they are laughing at us" is a bit much. I don't think it's pretentious... But I also think Marie-France should have refrained from making comments like it's a new way of movement and it's groundbreaking etc...
 

clairecloutier

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I had no time to read all the reactions to P/C’s FD, but I guess my opinion will not be popular

....

Now, do I think they should win (probably everything) this season? Yes. But not by 10 points in the free alone.


Thanks for your post. Very interesting to read! I did enjoy P/C's free dance, but I can see the validity of your arguments.

I agree with you and @chantilly about the scoring of Papadakis/Cizeron. P/C are a beautiful, fluid, talented team .... But I don't believe they are 15 to 20 points better than the rest of the field. The judges seem to be on autopilot. It's automatic +4s/+5s and 9.75s/10s for everything they do. Seems demoralizing for the other teams, who are working to improve and in some cases may match, come close to matching, or even slightly exceed, P/C in certain elements.


The absurdity of individual point attribution isn't specific to certain skaters - rather, judges still year for a "general impression" scoring system.
They don't like having the control taken away, not knowing what ranking their scores are going to produce. They want to be able to say "This one is 1st, this second, this third". So they mark each element accordingly, regardless of performance for each element/component.


Very interesting point. When I participated in a sample judging project a couple years ago (http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2016/10/well-be-judge-of-that-2014-sochi.html), that was one of the most surprising aspects of it to me--just the realization that, when you judge under IJS, you are not issuing an overall ranking for a program (#1, #2, #3), but are only judging parts of the program. It is a bit of an odd feeling. Because on some level, it feels like: Well if I'm going to judge this event, shouldn't I be making an overall judgment?
 
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Khaleesi

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I think that "they are laughing at us" is a bit much. I don't think it's pretentious... But I also think Marie-France should have refrained from making comments like it's a new way of movement and it's groundbreaking etc...
I didn’t read it as the poster meaning it literally. More of a figure of speech.
 

Peepsquick

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I like the black. There is nothing wrong with a little bit of class. It's not a soft & flowy program & shouldn't look like one.

Nothing against the color black in general... just my impression! I have no issues with Gui's outfit and I think I would be very glad to see Gabi in a black bodysuit. It's just the dress ... it strikes me as funereal.
 

Colonel Green

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world medal podium prediction, Gold Pap Ciz, Silver G&P, , Bronze S&K.
The most Gilles/Poirier could realistically get is bronze (and if it's going to happen, this is probably their best shot at it, with Worlds in Montreal, them being by far Canada's best medal prospect, and the scrapping between the two main US teams). We'll know if that's in the cards based on how they fare against the American teams at the Final and Four Continents.
 

yurokis40

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The Russians aren’t getting 2 teams on the podium at worlds in North America the judging panel is more balanced this year last it was Eastern Europe heavy it just feels like it’s g&p year they have the right vehicle to do it
 

Sylvia

TBD
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Worlds 2020 drawn judges by country:
...
Ice Dance: CAN, CHN, FIN, FRA, GBR, JPN, LTU, POL, RUS, ESP, SUI, UKR, USA
 

yurokis40

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The Canadian federation is pretty powerful they know how to politic when they have too I have a friend who attended skate Canada he was at the practices he told me the politicking for worlds for g&p was already in full swing much like sinkats last year
 

mollymgr

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I sense some kind of shake-up in dance placements by Worlds. There are several teams that are almost retired?/sitting out and it is time for new ones to take their place. I'm excited to see how this Worlds will go. It might not be as predictable for silver and below. Even within federations, the fresh seniors are coming up and challenging the established senior teams. That said, the ice is slippery and ice dance judging is even more so. :lol:
 

aftershocks

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I haven’t seen anyone here over critiquing anything. We’re on a freaking message board about skating. What are we supposed to do just stare at each other? People are allowed to state their feelings on programs without being disrespectful.

Who said any different? There are challenges to certain opinions that people differ with or that are stated harshly. Yep, it's a message board on the Internet, which is sometimes like navigating the Wild Wild West without a gun. Take it easy there Khaleesi. No high horses intended. Figure skating is a very emotional spectator sport. :watch:

Marie-France should have refrained from making comments like it's a new way of movement and it's groundbreaking etc...

Maybe it's 'groundbreaking' for ice dance, but not groundbreaking for dance movement in general?

There are several teams that are almost retired?/sitting out and it is time for new ones to take their place. I'm excited to see how this Worlds will go.

Yes. Something similar is happening in pairs, which is not unusual in the second season out from an Olympics.
 

Khaleesi

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Who said any different? There are challenges to certain opinions that people differ with or that are stated harshly. Yep, it's a message board on the Internet, which is sometimes like navigating the Wild Wild West without a gun. Take it easy there Khaleesi. No high horses intended. Figure skating is a very emotional spectator sport. :watch:
Um, you did? Or at least that’s what you implied. No comment on the rest of post because I have no idea what you’re getting at.
 

Bigbird

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S/K don't need us. They have Russia. Can you imagine those expectations.
They have the Russian Federation, they will be fine. I just hope the Canadian Federation is willing to support their team in the event that they throw down because in my eyes G/P and C/B really do have some cool set of programmes this season. At the very least momentum is building.
 

aftershocks

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allezfred

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I don't believe they are 15 to 20 points better than the rest of the field.

They really are though. With Virtue/Moir out of the picture, there is no team to touch them in terms of any of the PCS and the elements all look so effortless. For a competition, it’s incredibly boring, but that is the reality. They are just so far ahead of any other ice dance team competing at the moment.
 

sykr

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That's ... very condescending. You're more or less saying that people who like their FD are idiots (or fools).

FWIW, I went in excepting to hate the FD. I thought the idea sounded pretentious and the poem was very trite. Wasn't sure what I thought the first time I watched it, then I watched it again a couple weeks later and I loved it. So did my father, who thought the idea sounded awful. Neither of us have ever been huge P/C fans, though we appreciate the quality of their skating. Is that me "eating it"?

And the idea that "they're openly laughing at us" is absurd. You can like or dislike the FD, but it's quite clear to me that they believe in their material. You can think they're pretentious for it, or whatever, but seriously.
Hi and thank you for your reply. But you didn't get my point (or maybe, I expressed myself not clear enough, sorry for that). There is no problem at all with you loving their free dance. Actually I like it as well, and there is nothing wrong with that. My point is, it is not what they try to sell us, what they present to the public, media, judges.
I completely agree they believe in their material, and that is great and very important, but there are also different ways to present it. You can say "we love our free, we put so much heart into it, we feel it. We were inspired this time by the poem and it is new to us, as we express its meaning with our movement" Or you say "it's groundbreaking, nobody has ever skated to slam poem. We don't skate to music and rhythm, but to the words. The movement is completely new and different." sorry, but this is not true and I find it both disrespectful and offending. Not only to fans but also to those, who really did it and invented these "groundbreaking" things. "C'est hyper novateur" says Haguenauer before Masters in Villard de Lans. Isn't it very unfortunate and ironical at the same time? Villard is hometown to Karine Arribert and her dancers. It's actually them, who were exploring contemporary dance and skating to slam poems many years ago. And please, don't tell me team Gadbois had no idea.
In the same interview, he also describes, how they changed the way of moving, with expressions like "more jerky gestures, more broken lines, with more breaks in movements, more contraction movement" (again, not really true) and adds it is very different from what they did before (again not true).
In a way, I have sometimes impression P/C are somehow disrespectful towards other skaters (both past and present) and arrogant. I've read not once sentences like "we don't watch our competitors, we are not interested in rewatching big champions from the past,...we are artists, we create ourselves". Of course, it is their right not to care for anybody else, but then, you shouldn't pretend you're first and the only one.

So again, my problem is not with the program itself, I have a problem with how it is judged (not P/C's fault !) and how it is presented (absolutely P/C's responsibility). As I said before, they're really talented, so I would love to see them really challenge themselves, not only to talk about that :)
 

Bigbird

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Again they are at least 15 points better than the best of the rest and another 5 - 10 points better than the pack. That is not being disrespectful to their competition just stating the facts. We are still waiting on a special team to challenge them. I/K could have been that team if K wasn't so intimidated by I, but as it stands we're still waiting. Special mention goes out though to G/F, he has improved a lot love his precision. C/B as a team but they need more speed (Madison) and more swag (Evan). Oh I could go on, but the reality is what is is, enjoy each team for their merits and that's about it.
 

Hongsuong

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Hi and thank you for your reply. But you didn't get my point (or maybe, I expressed myself not clear enough, sorry for that). There is no problem at all with you loving their free dance. Actually I like it as well, and there is nothing wrong with that. My point is, it is not what they try to sell us, what they present to the public, media, judges.
I completely agree they believe in their material, and that is great and very important, but there are also different ways to present it. You can say "we love our free, we put so much heart into it, we feel it. We were inspired this time by the poem and it is new to us, as we express its meaning with our movement" Or you say "it's groundbreaking, nobody has ever skated to slam poem. We don't skate to music and rhythm, but to the words. The movement is completely new and different." sorry, but this is not true and I find it both disrespectful and offending. Not only to fans but also to those, who really did it and invented these "groundbreaking" things. "C'est hyper novateur" says Haguenauer before Masters in Villard de Lans. Isn't it very unfortunate and ironical at the same time? Villard is hometown to Karine Arribert and her dancers. It's actually them, who were exploring contemporary dance and skating to slam poems many years ago. And please, don't tell me team Gadbois had no idea.
In the same interview, he also describes, how they changed the way of moving, with expressions like "more jerky gestures, more broken lines, with more breaks in movements, more contraction movement" (again, not really true) and adds it is very different from what they did before (again not true).
In a way, I have sometimes impression P/C are somehow disrespectful towards other skaters (both past and present) and arrogant. I've read not once sentences like "we don't watch our competitors, we are not interested in rewatching big champions from the past,...we are artists, we create ourselves". Of course, it is their right not to care for anybody else, but then, you shouldn't pretend you're first and the only one.

So again, my problem is not with the program itself, I have a problem with how it is judged (not P/C's fault !) and how it is presented (absolutely P/C's responsibility). As I said before, they're really talented, so I would love to see them really challenge themselves, not only to talk about that :)

Why is P/C's responsibility ? I's Haguenauer and MF who said that...
 

starrynight

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The fact is that P/C will probably win every competition for the next 3 seasons and win the Olympics to a home made recording of themselves breathing. lol So whatever. We might as well all peace out.

But when the ice dance field is static like that, the real excitement comes from when another skater turns up dressed like a snake. I'm all about Madison Chock this season.
 
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cocotaffy

Fetchez la vache... mais fetchez la vache !
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You can say "we love our free, we put so much heart into it, we feel it. We were inspired this time by the poem and it is new to us, as we express its meaning with our movement"
Here you go, phrased to your liking ;) No we are groundbreaking, no first time anything, just we were interested to explore this road. From what I read over the years about P/C, Romain is the one who has a tendency to get ahead of himself, not P/C. He also distorted the reality when presenting Oddudua before the 2017 Masters.

There is also an interesting analysis on the ice dance section at Grand Prix de France from the Flutzes and Waxels They talked about how different their RD is and how pleasing to see them exploring a totally different road. Interestingly enough, they notice how they always incorporate new elements in their dances especially new lifts, twizzles, they loved their one foot step sequence bringing innovation more in that area that in their FD themes. Yet they would want them to flip the coin next year and do what they did in the Fame RD but for the FD that is a radically different FD.

They think G/F should have finished second, which I agree too even though their FD was not as impactful as I remembered from their first outing. First off, they should have chosen David Bowie's original version. Second, their moves are a bit too generic for the voidiness which should happen in this program. Too much meaningless arm flailing. Yet, I loved her commitment with her costume her spacey make up. They were technically extremely precise as well. The choreography should be revised though.

I can't wait to see what will happen with S/K scoring on the next two GP, this is the last unknown.

ETA: Ice talk about GP France and it starts with Ice dance so no need to fumble around.
 
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lauravvv

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People need to go read the interviews from Kostomarov and the dreck that will soon come from Besti, The TAT and Zhulin. MF et al. (2019) are at least on point. Chillax.
I am waiting for TAT to say her part for sure, but for altogether different reasons than what you are imagining. It seems there's no bigger P/C fan than Tarasova. She has been waxing poetic about them and practically gasping throughout in excitеment each time when she's been commentating them.
 
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