The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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thvudragon said:
The calls from the Technical Panel had so much more weight in during the last cycle. Each level for a step sequence was worth 1.5 points, which back then could literally decide rankings.

Last season was the turn IMO. The Tech Panel's calls had drastically less influence. The difference in step sequences, twizzles, and OF Steps all became .50 points per level. So low compared to before, while levels and spins stayed at 1.00 difference in levels. The levels for the lifts and spins became so much more important than making sure you hit L4 for steps. With the expanded values for GOEs, choreographic elements going to Max GOE of 4.15, the judges got way more influence and power over results. This is what I think is bringing back protocol judging, that judges have more of a say in the final rankings.

The technical committee has flattened all level differences to 0.75 points (0.74 for twizzles and ofsteps, partial steps), which I think is a good start. What I think they need to do is lower the GOEs for choreographic elements. Currently, teams can earn up to 12.45 points from GOE on the 3 choreographic elements. That is just way too high IMO. The max GOE total from the Twizzles, One-Foot Steps, and Step Sequence is 12.12, less than the total for the choreographic elements which I think is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Agreed that that is ridiculous.

I do appreciate some of the changes in that they allowed the skaters more freedom in the program and it wasn’t all about cramming in the elements, but the lowering of the levels base values is a step too far IMO as one example.

I can respect the argument and agree somewhat that if a team does a level 3 element and executes it perfectly then, yeah maybe they deserve a higher score then a team that does a level 4 but it’s executed with more effort and not as smoothly say, but I do have a problem when someone has a level 1 or 2 element that scores higher then a level 4.

This is “dumming down” the sport IMO.

I do really like the choreography elements and think they should stay but no way they should be collectively worth more then lifts, footwork or twizzles.

I also think that there should be way more closed holds rewarded and demanded in the sport. At least in the RD.

I also think they need to revamp the levels for lifts. It seems to me that pretty much any team can get a level 4 lift.

Dance of all the disciplines in FS needs to have more checks and balances in the judging protocol because it’s more subjective at a base level.
 
Khaleesi said:
I’ve watched P/C’s FD from IdF 3X now, but I’m just not getting into it try as I may. This is the first time I keep losing interest in a FD of theirs before the performance is over. Oh well. I’m loving the RD though.

Where can I find skaters that are already qualified for the GPF?
Click to expand...

I think that the camera work at IdF didn't help ... some segments went under because the camera changed focus. This is a piece that will be best appreciated live imo. Did you see the rapt faces of the people watching?
Then, there is the question of the topic ... it is dark and instead of lifting it up with lighter-colored clothes, they went with black. That spoils it a bit for me ... .
The spoken passages, on the other hand, don't bother me as they provide the evolution in the narrative. The voice doesn't jolt me out of the actual dancing, it stays in the background and has a rather "hypnotizing" effect on me.
It is as surprising as Oddodua but without the levity of the second part.
 
Peepsquick said:
I think that the camera work at IdF didn't help ... some segments went under because the camera changed focus. This is a piece that will be best appreciated live imo. Did you see the rapt faces of the people watching?
Then, there is the question of the topic ... it is dark and instead of lifting it up with lighter-colored clothes, they went with black. That spoils it a bit for me ... .
The spoken passages, on the other hand, don't bother me as they provide the evolution in the narrative. The voice doesn't jolt me out of the actual dancing, it stays in the background and has a rather "hypnotizing" effect on me.
It is as surprising as Oddodua but without the levity of the second part.
Click to expand...
I think that simple black costumes are perfect for it.
 
Wyliefan said:
No, I was being serious. "Screw Loose" is a terrible song for a teenage girl and a grown man to dance to -- as I'm far from the first to point out.
Click to expand...

:lol: I didn't catch those lyrics at all. Ummm, I think the judges should pay more attention to the overall abilities and overall impression of the programs, rather then being overly put out by lyrics. If Trusova skating to Hey Big Spender as a 13 or 14 year old didn't bother any higher-ups in the ISU, why should judges have a conniption fit over 'Screw Loose' lyrics? Seriously, it's certainly true that selecting the right music and concept can make a difference, but I wouldn't go too batshit cray cray over strange lyrics. But skaters should definitely consider employing program selection rainmakers!

And the buzz is still going around about Hub/Don needing to tweak at least their FD and the music cuts for both programs. TSL saying they've lost their edginess after they were no longer underdogs, etc., etc. As I said before, I think it's growing pains combined with all that Madi and Zach have had to overcome. But a huge factor is ice dance politics altogether with the fact that as Dave of TSL opines: "Rusfed smell blood and see a big Bourne/Kraatz target on Madi/Zach's backs..." Oh well, it's always about Rusfed trying to push up their teams in order to try and be dominant in ice dance again. But this time, it's two teams, one of which does not have great ice dance skills, despite being entertaining.

The whole thing about Hawayek/Baker losing to the Brits Fear/Gibson & their en vogue Madonna concept is what it is. And that's largely H/B being let down by program selection this season because Gadbois has sooooo many teams to juggle and to come up with new ideas for. With the right concept to suit them, H/B could have hit a home run because they are giving all they've got with the program concepts they were given this season. It's just that Saturday Night Fever concept has been done many times before (chiefly by Gilles/Poirier and as well by Fear/ Gibson). Tango concepts have been done to death too, and this one isn't grabbing the audience throughout.

Unfortunately, there's also the snooty size perception regarding H/B, which ignores how great a skater Jean Luc is, and how much Kaitlin has improved. Up against Fear/Gibson, H/B are much more skilled skating-wise, but ice dance is also about performance and entertainment. Justin gives his take on the ice dance results at Skate Canada in this clip. And he does so without the off-putting snark employed by TSL:
youtu.be

2019 Skate Canada International Recap by Justin

My figure skating recap of the 2019 Skate Canada International in Kelowna, B.C., Canada. #SCI19 #SkateCanada2019 Yuzuru Hanyu Nam Nguyen Keiji Tanaka Camden ...
youtu.be youtu.be
 
twinklestar said:
It's not that Hubbell and Donohue are naturally sexy, it's just that they get to do sexy programs. They're trying to copy Virtue and Moir. I think Hubbell and DOnohue are starting to be grotesque by doing too much. Madison Chock is naturally sexier than Madison Hubbell. Hubbell trying to be Marilyn Monroe is ridiculous.
As for P/C, they've been doing asexual FDs since "Build a home". I liked them at the beginning, but now it's all starting to be quite boring, you know, no excitement, nothing new, it's predictable. Anyway, they still look good and beautiful, but oh well, it's boring like a Buddhist mantra or a vegan no-sugar no-gluten cake. We want sugar, butter, eggs and deliciousness! And **** the mantras, bring the drama.
Click to expand...

What??? Is this your view, or more translation from a fs observer in the skating community? :drama:

We are talking about figure skating and ice dance discipline. Right about now, everyone has maybe been overdosing on too many hours of watching competitive programs and listening to different viewpoints, and are coming down with a huge fs hangover, especially surrounding the annoying as usual WTH judging on PCS, subjectivity-itis, and politics conflicts of interest.
 
oleada said:
Yeah, he had a twizzle error, but they're technically and artistically so much better.
Click to expand...

:lol: In this case, I actually think DL of TSL said it best when he opined that Babs focuses like a laser on getting G/F to be on point technically with their edges, etc. DL thinks less of G/F having that 'je ne sais quoi' or 'piece de resistance' as a team. ITA in the sense that it's truly a matter of taste regarding G/F being more 'artistic' than Chock/Bates. It's in the eye of the beholder. To each their own. G/F are cute and top-notch with their passion and competitive desire. But I would NOT call them more 'artistic' than Chock/Bates. No cigar there oleada.

Babs gets every ounce of possibility out of G/F, just as G/F do out of themselves with what they have to work with. Re Chock/Bates: excuse me but sexy, charismatic Maddie Chock knows how to sell a performance (fuhgettabout Maddie not always being on her correct edges). Girl simply has that something and dang if M-F Dubreuil don't know how to maximize Chock's sass. She do and Chock is rockin' it, with a revamped Bates who looks less nerdy and much more engaged wid his partner. In fact, they are engaged! :lol: ETA: If they aren't exactly engaged yet, at least they have admitted to being in love:
www.youtube.com

Olympic Ice Dancing Duo Madison Chock And Evan Bates 'Fell In Love' On The Ice | PeopleTV

"Maddie and I met and we were competitors for a long time," Evan Bates tells PEOPLE.Subscribe to PeopleTV ►► http://bit.ly/SubscribePeopleTVWatch the newest ...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

Even in the earlier 'Justin' clip, he also buzzes that he thinks Chock/Bates will surpass Hub/Don at U.S. Nationals this season. Such an outcome remains to be seen, but indeed M-F Dubreuil has recharged C/B's batteries, and left Hawayek/ Baker and Hub/Don a bit wanting in the program concept department. Obviously, in part the team members themselves must also play their own important roles in understanding who they are and where they want to go as a team. I think Meryl/Charlie and the Shibs were genius at not relying solely on Marina, but getting out and soaking up ideas from other current artistic influences and experts in other fields like ballroom dancers, musicians, artists, and even athletes in other sports.
 
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Peepsquick said:
I think that the camera work at IdF didn't help ... some segments went under because the camera changed focus. This is a piece that will be best appreciated live imo. Did you see the rapt faces of the people watching?
Then, there is the question of the topic ... it is dark and instead of lifting it up with lighter-colored clothes, they went with black. That spoils it a bit for me ... .
The spoken passages, on the other hand, don't bother me as they provide the evolution in the narrative. The voice doesn't jolt me out of the actual dancing, it stays in the background and has a rather "hypnotizing" effect on me.
It is as surprising as Oddodua but without the levity of the second part.
Click to expand...
Could be. Maybe seeing it live leaves better impression. The costumes aren’t an issue for me, I actually think they go with the program.
 
A while back we were discussing future pattern dances for the 2022 Olympics, and I noticed in this recent, lengthy interview with Piper she says this about the subject:
I’m just excited, for the next Olympic year - I think they were thinking of doing hip hop…

EOG: Midnight Blues again?

PIPER: Yeah. I love the Midnight, so I’m okay with that!
Click to expand...
Also, she says that the March will be the junior pattern for 2021-22.
 
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I think P/C are pushing the envelope and taking chances and risks. They are not sitting back on their laurels. No great champions ever do that. P/C are great artists as well as champion athletes. It's quite easy for us fans and other observers to sit on our backsides criticizing. There will always be differing opinions about work that pushes the envelope and takes chances.

If P/C tried to stay in a comfort zone, repeating themselves, they would be criticized for not trying something different to expand their range. So, whatever. The season is in full swing, and as usual we have to watch to see what's going to happen next. :watch:
 
It's a mixed bag, and there will never always be consensus. I also think it's difficult to figure sometimes why we are moved by some programs by some skaters and not by others. Often our feelings about skaters change over time too. The over-critical carping that sometimes goes too far deserves to be questioned. It's all a part of the sharing and the conversation.

Obviously, figure skating is subjective and very political and problematic in the scoring, which only adds to the mix of emotions and opinions.
 
I had no time to read all the reactions to P/C’s FD, but I guess my opinion will not be popular. Still, I feel like I have to put my 2 cents here. Honestly, I don’t know if I did a mistake or not, but I read the pre-season interview about their free program and I had high expectations…very high actually. Right now, I feel like they’re openly laughing at us, taking us for fools. And the worst is…people are eating it.

Ok, so what is my problem? P/C are skating great, everything they’re known for is present in this FD. They’re smooth, flowing, seamless. Their biggest advantage, are their innate dancing skills and by this, I mean they’re very good in contemporary and modern dancing movements. Arm‘s movement is coming from the back, the head is never rigid, they have dynamism and hit aesthetically extremely pleasing upper body positions.

It is a fantastic skill….and basically you either have it or not. It is something you can’t really learn, it is talent….and they have it and excel in it. I’m choreographing and teaching dance, so I know how easy it is to work with natural talents and how much work the less lucky ones have to put into their training.

Now, I was told I will be watching a very contemporary piece of dancing, done to the words, rather than to music or rhythm. Something that nobody has ever done before (hello, Blanc/Bouquet who did exactly this and much more boldly:encore:, Anissina/Peizerat, who were using speech almost 20 years ago….Hagenauer has probably forgotten;), more recently Muller/Diek, who actually had a very strong FD last year, but sadly miss the technical virtue).

What we get is a classical P/C FD, set to lyrical-dramatical music, with exactly one choreo sequence, where they really use the spoken word and real choreography. Btw. if you check any of SYTYCD or similar shows, you will soon understand that what they do is a standard set of not very difficult contemporary movements. There is one other element in this FD which I really love and that is their stationary lift…great entry and exit, unexpected, fantastically performed…absolutely worth +5. Other than that?

I love the way they move. But this is supposed to be an artistic SPORT. This dance is so open I could barely find any dance holds (thank god there is still one step sequence). And sadly, there is nothing special about their other elements, nor are they in the character. Most of them, they do it effortlessly, because 1) they do it for years 2)they’re actually not that difficult. And I really miss the actual choreography in the elements. There are no original, contemporary or unique positions or transitions in their twizzles, spin, lifts, steps. Any of these could easily fit into Mozart, Beethoven or the last year’s free. Why not to incorporate a little bit of the ChSt moves into their other elements? They’re changing music and picking original one every time, but the moves are almost identical. As for the difficulty and quality, for example, Chock/Bates should score higher in the lifts department (both partners working equally, more important changes of center of gravity,…), there is no reason why Stepanova/Bukin shouldn’t have better scores for spin for example….yet, this is never happening.

Now, do I think they should win (probably everything) this season? Yes. But not by 10 points in the free alone. Their overall skating quality is fantastic, but it should not mean they get +5 for elements, where half of the couples does better, more difficult and original things. They’re really talented, so I would love to see them actually really challenge themselves and not only talk about it while copying a few of the moves that the dancing World discovered many years ago.
 
aftershocks said:
It's a mixed bag, and there will never always be consensus. I also think it's difficult to figure sometimes why we are moved by some programs by some skaters and not by others. Often our feelings about skaters change over time too. The over-critical carping that sometimes goes too far deserves to be questioned. It's all a part of the sharing and the conversation.

Obviously, figure skating is subjective and very political and problematic in the scoring, which only adds to the mix of emotions and opinions.
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen anyone here over critiquing anything. We’re on a freaking message board about skating. What are we supposed to do just stare at each other? People are allowed to state their feelings on programs without being disrespectful.
 
I have yet to see P and C or S and B or C and B dances at GP France.
NBC showed snippets but not the whole thing of P and C.

Hopefully I can watch the stream on YouTube at some point this week when I have time.

But I really think the point spread is ridiculous too, especially since their were errors here and loss of levels, yet the RD of P and C was 5 and 6 points above H and D and P and C at SC GP.

And from all reports G and F are getting hosed.

Dance is my favourite discipline, but right now it seems like a foregone conclusion that despite what’s put on the ice P and C will win by a massive margin.
I agree they are innate magical dancers on the ice, but they are not 10 points better IMO.
If this is the way it’s going to be in the Olympic cycle I’ll be disappointed.
It feels like the old days when the judges had already decided who’s going to podium and in what order.
 
sykr said:
I had no time to read all the reactions to P/C’s FD, but I guess my opinion will not be popular. Still, I feel like I have to put my 2 cents here. Honestly, I don’t know if I did a mistake or not, but I read the pre-season interview about their free program and I had high expectations…very high actually. Right now, I feel like they’re openly laughing at us, taking us for fools. And the worst is…people are eating it.

Ok, so what is my problem? P/C are skating great, everything they’re known for is present in this FD. They’re smooth, flowing, seamless. Their biggest advantage, are their innate dancing skills and by this, I mean they’re very good in contemporary and modern dancing movements. Arm‘s movement is coming from the back, the head is never rigid, they have dynamism and hit aesthetically extremely pleasing upper body positions.

It is a fantastic skill….and basically you either have it or not. It is something you can’t really learn, it is talent….and they have it and excel in it. I’m choreographing and teaching dance, so I know how easy it is to work with natural talents and how much work the less lucky ones have to put into their training.

Now, I was told I will be watching a very contemporary piece of dancing, done to the words, rather than to music or rhythm. Something that nobody has ever done before (hello, Blanc/Bouquet who did exactly this and much more boldly:encore:, Anissina/Peizerat, who were using speech almost 20 years ago….Hagenauer has probably forgotten;), more recently Muller/Diek, who actually had a very strong FD last year, but sadly miss the technical virtue).

What we get is a classical P/C FD, set to lyrical-dramatical music, with exactly one choreo sequence, where they really use the spoken word and real choreography. Btw. if you check any of SYTYCD or similar shows, you will soon understand that what they do is a standard set of not very difficult contemporary movements. There is one other element in this FD which I really love and that is their stationary lift…great entry and exit, unexpected, fantastically performed…absolutely worth +5. Other than that?

I love the way they move. But this is supposed to be an artistic SPORT. This dance is so open I could barely find any dance holds (thank god there is still one step sequence). And sadly, there is nothing special about their other elements, nor are they in the character. Most of them, they do it effortlessly, because 1) they do it for years 2)they’re actually not that difficult. And I really miss the actual choreography in the elements. There are no original, contemporary or unique positions or transitions in their twizzles, spin, lifts, steps. Any of these could easily fit into Mozart, Beethoven or the last year’s free. Why not to incorporate a little bit of the ChSt moves into their other elements? They’re changing music and picking original one every time, but the moves are almost identical. As for the difficulty and quality, for example, Chock/Bates should score higher in the lifts department (both partners working equally, more important changes of center of gravity,…), there is no reason why Stepanova/Bukin shouldn’t have better scores for spin for example….yet, this is never happening.

Now, do I think they should win (probably everything) this season? Yes. But not by 10 points in the free alone. Their overall skating quality is fantastic, but it should not mean they get +5 for elements, where half of the couples does better, more difficult and original things. They’re really talented, so I would love to see them actually really challenge themselves and not only talk about it while copying a few of the moves that the dancing World discovered many years ago.
Click to expand...
Yes, the lack of reward for teams doing individual elements outstandingly well has to be incredibly dispiriting. Part of it is just generalised treatment of scores, not just PCS but elements too.
It's not just P&C, but across all disciplines: Hanyu gets much better GOE than his competitors with similar quality elements, or Samarin has higher transition scores than Aymoz.... the list could go on forever. The absurdity of individual point attribution isn't specific to certain skaters - rather, judges still year for a "general impression" scoring system.
They don't like having the control taken away, not knowing what ranking their scores are going to produce. They want to be able to say "This one is 1st, this second, this third". So they mark each element accordingly, regardless of performance for each element/component. It's been a point-blank refusal to dissect performances ever since IJS was implemented.

Another of it is that although GOE is meant to be a bonus-based system, it's being treated as a deduction based system. So P&C's flow in and out of elements really plays to this: someone may have an incredibly hard, well-performed lift but if going in and out is a bit jerky, if it doesn't seamlessly blend into the choreography, then it's going to get lower GOE than P&C's simple variation that you didn't even notice just happened.
 
millyskate said:
Yes, the lack of reward for teams doing individual elements outstandingly well has to be incredibly dispiriting. Part of it is just generalised treatment of scores, not just PCS but elements too.
It's not just P&C, but across all disciplines: Hanyu gets much better GOE than his competitors with similar quality elements, or Samarin has higher transition scores than Aymoz.... the list could go on forever. The absurdity of individual point attribution isn't specific to certain skaters - rather, judges still year for a "general impression" scoring system.
They don't like having the control taken away, not knowing what ranking their scores are going to produce. They want to be able to say "This one is 1st, this second, this third". So they mark each element accordingly, regardless of performance for each element/component. It's been a point-blank refusal to dissect performances ever since IJS was implemented.

Another of it is that although GOE is meant to be a bonus-based system, it's being treated as a deduction based system. So P&C's flow in and out of elements really plays to this: someone may have an incredibly hard, well-performed lift but if going in and out is a bit jerky, if it doesn't seamlessly blend into the choreography, then it's going to get lower GOE than P&C's simple variation that you didn't even notice just happened.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In the defence of the judges however it is asking a lot of them to judge the GOEs and the PCS.

There definitely should be more variance in all of the scores.

With the dance like I said upthread I don’t have much of an issue with something getting higher GOEs like a P and C lift for example. This higher scale of values does favour their fluid style, but I do think lift values need to be reassessed.
 
Looks like we will have Midnight Blues and Hip Hop (as one of the options) for Olympic season.

From Edges of Glory interview with Piper Gilles:
EOG: And the theme is folk, so folk and waltz - which I think are my two least favorites. Like you know, you can make waltz fun, but you can’t really make folk waltz fun. It’s not like hip hop, like it’s not relatable. And then, y’know, we’re gonna see so much cultural appropriation, like the Russians in 2010…
PIPER: That’s the thing, like, WHY? That’s the sad thing - so say Paul and I did a Kalinka, like a Russian folk dance - is that gonna be considered not okay because we’re not Russian? You know, would we be making fun of the Russian culture by doing that? It’s like we’re stuck, what do we do? I don’t know, I don’t think it’ll get that far, but the world’s kind of leaning in that direction, and you’re like, “Oh my God, like I don’t know what to do!”
EOG: Even this year, there are so many, like, Egyptian programs, and you see so much controversy over those… I mean, are there any Canadian folk… songs?
PIPER: I mean there’s a lot of like Quebec folk songs, but nothing recognizable that people are gonna be like, “Yeah! I know that song! I’m gonna get behind it!” I’m just excited, for the next Olympic year - I think they were thinking of doing hip hop…
EOG: Midnight Blues again?
PIPER: Yeah. I love the Midnight, so I’m okay with that!
Click to expand...
www.edgesofglory.com

Meet Piper Gilles | Edges of Glory

In both skating and in life, Canadian ice dancer Piper Gilles is always true to herself, true to her dreams, and true to her heart. All the creative programs, inventive lifts, and dazzling costumes are just the byproducts of her genuine nature, free spirit, and the unique way she approaches life a
www.edgesofglory.com www.edgesofglory.com
 
Ka3sha said:
Looks like we will have Midnight Blues and Hip Hop (as one of the options) for Olympic season.

From Edges of Glory interview with Piper Gilles:

www.edgesofglory.com

Meet Piper Gilles | Edges of Glory

In both skating and in life, Canadian ice dancer Piper Gilles is always true to herself, true to her dreams, and true to her heart. All the creative programs, inventive lifts, and dazzling costumes are just the byproducts of her genuine nature, free spirit, and the unique way she approaches life a
www.edgesofglory.com www.edgesofglory.com
Click to expand...
Excusez-moi, I already posted this. :lynch:
 
It makes sense for ISU to use Blues / Hip-Hop at the Olympic season to cater to the general audience. Anyway, I think it's safe to say we'll see more disco-y programs in the next two seasons.

The judging, on the other hand, will probably be even more messy... :shuffle:
 
chantilly said:
I have yet to see P and C or S and B or C and B dances at GP France.
NBC showed snippets but not the whole thing of P and C.
Click to expand...
NBC showed snippets of P/C's Fame RD on Sunday afternoon, followed by their FD in its entirety.
 
sykr said:
I had no time to read all the reactions to P/C’s FD, but I guess my opinion will not be popular. Still, I feel like I have to put my 2 cents here. Honestly, I don’t know if I did a mistake or not, but I read the pre-season interview about their free program and I had high expectations…very high actually. Right now, I feel like they’re openly laughing at us, taking us for fools. And the worst is…people are eating it.
Click to expand...
That's ... very condescending. You're more or less saying that people who like their FD are idiots (or fools).

FWIW, I went in excepting to hate the FD. I thought the idea sounded pretentious and the poem was very trite. Wasn't sure what I thought the first time I watched it, then I watched it again a couple weeks later and I loved it. So did my father, who thought the idea sounded awful. Neither of us have ever been huge P/C fans, though we appreciate the quality of their skating. Is that me "eating it"?

And the idea that "they're openly laughing at us" is absurd. You can like or dislike the FD, but it's quite clear to me that they believe in their material. You can think they're pretentious for it, or whatever, but seriously.
 
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