The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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Orm Irian

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That Australian judge (No7) was having none of that Singing in the Rain at CoC. Those PCS :lol: He also completely hosed the Danadians.

Eh, he was at the lower end of the PCS scale for almost all of the teams. Australian judges are kind of notorious for being contrarians and/or hardasses.

But I agree he was in the right territory for that Snoring in the Rain program. :)
 

bcash

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Somehow S/K’s program looked more clunky here than at the Russian test skate. Could be the costumes, esp. his. The shape of her dress isn’t the best either. Just didn’t feel the lightness this time. He’s giving too much face.
 

suki

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Topic for your consideration: Barring injuries, retirements, etc., by the 2022 Winter Olympics the judges will have sin/kats neck and neck with P/C. Close on their heels: Step/Buhk. Of course, it may not be based on actual performances.:rolleyes:
 

muffinplus

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Topic for your consideration: Barring injuries, retirements, etc., by the 2022 Winter Olympics the judges will have sin/kats neck and neck with P/C. Close on their heels: Step/Buhk. Of course, it may not be based on actual performances.:rolleyes:

Are you saying Sin/Kats can't possibly legitimately challenge P/C no matter what? Because they've clearly upped their technical skills significantly since a couple of years ago.. Not really comparable to Lobacheva/Averbukh or Navka/Kostomarov. Their programs and packaging could stand to improve though... last year's RD was amazing and this year's programs don't quite measure up
 
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Bigbird

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Are you saying Sin/Kats can't possibly legitimately challenge P/C no matter what? Because they've clearly upped their technical skills significantly since a couple of years ago.. Not really comparable to Lobacheva/Averbukh or Navka/Kostomarov. Their programs and packaging could stand to improve though... last year's RD was amazing and this year's programs don't quite measure up
No let's not have that discuusion. A lot can happen in three seasons. We'll cross that bridge when and if we get there. I am still in denial that S/K is the only quasi-real competition P/C really have. I'm still looking for the next Virtue and Moir, seriously. Sigh.
 

suki

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Are you saying Sin/Kats can't possibly legitimately challenge P/C no matter what? Because they've clearly upped their technical skills significantly since a couple of years ago.. Not really comparable to Lobacheva/Averbukh or Navka/Kostomarov. Their programs and packaging could stand to improve though... last year's RD was amazing and this year's programs don't quite measure up

I am just wondering if the sudden boost in their scores is a harbinger of a federation push/deal to get them on the podium or better.
 

bcash

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I’ve always felt skating-wise H/D should be in that challenger role. And I personally have no problem with their programs this season so I’m just currently resigned to the fact that judges are not hot on them(never have been in a real way). S/K has a good sense of attack and focus to their skating and performance starting from last season. S/B’s post Olympic season bump is more mystifying(although the FD this season is not bad), as if they get compensated for being banned from competing at the Olympics..
 

muffinplus

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I am just wondering if the sudden boost in their scores is a harbinger of a federation push/deal to get them on the podium or better.

Their scores have been increasing since at least last season though... so I wouldn't say it's totally sudden. I'm sure there is federation pushing for them, but they are not the first nor the last to benefit from that
 

Ka3sha

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SinKats had shown some glimmers of success even during last cycle, especially in 2915/16 season. They lacked experience, needed more time to gel as a team, Victoria was still a noticeable weaker part and etc, but the potential was there.
I think their rise last season was a compilation of different factors like B/S retirement, Federation's push, having at least one great and effective program (tango), new approach to skating and to work (as Nikita admitted in several interviews), Victoria's improvement and etc. And let's not forget about Nikita's OBM and that judges had always showed their love towards him.

They are definitely not on the same level as P/C and I cannot see them challenge the French in the fair world , but I do think that they are now clearly and rightly #2 team in the world.
 

Bigbird

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SinKats had shown some glimmers of success even during last cycle, especially in 2915/16 season. They lacked experience, needed more time to gel as a team, Victoria was still a noticeable weaker part and etc, but the potential was there.
I think their rise last season was a compilation of different factors like B/S retirement, Federation's push, having at least one great and effective program (tango), new approach to skating and to work (as Nikita admitted in several interviews), Victoria's improvement and etc. And let's not forget about Nikita's OBM and that judges had always showed their love towards him.

They are definitely not on the same level as P/C and I cannot see them challenge the French in the fair world , but I do think that they are now clearly and rightly #2 team in the world.

Yeah, I hear you, but if that's all the competition P/C really have, it's rather dull for me.
 

Bigbird

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Madi and Evan may want to rethink this -

If they want to get back the national title or a world medal, that is. As much as I enjoy watching their new style, those technicalities are killing their scores.

Their programme (the RD to clarify)just seemed overly packed with too much extraneous movement.
 

laviemn

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Madi and Evan may want to rethink this -

If they want to get back the national title or a world medal, that is. As much as I enjoy watching their new style, those technicalities are killing their scores.

God, why say this. When H/D said they focused on performance over tech just for that competition at GPF last season, people hammered them with it every time they lost a level for the rest of season.

So did Chock/Bates skate more cautiously at US Classic to get that level 4 pattern? Or was it a more lenient caller?

As for the question of S/K's scoring boost, you could also question if G/P are getting a bump from W/P retiring and Canada needing them to place higher to score 3 spots at a home Worlds.
 

deegee

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Yeah, I hear you, but if that's all the competition P/C really have, it's rather dull for me.
i'm ok with it. the thing is, they are all still very high quality skaters even if one team is in another league above everyone else. there have been some really enjoyable, fun to watch programs the last couple seasons and i imagine other teams will at least keep pushing the fun factor or still be creating their own memorable programs. they don't all have to skate out of this world for the programs to move me in some way.
 

Dobre

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Or was it a more lenient caller?

No. Elek was the caller at the U.S. Classic. He is tough. He was the caller at the GPF last season, and based on his calls at the U.S. Classic the last several seasons, I don't think he really believes in footwork levels above a level two at the start of the season. He was also the assistant tech specialist at the 2017 Worlds (where about 2 teams were happy after their final scores came up).

Elek was also the caller at Finlandia, where C&B earned a level one for the first time.

At first I thought maybe it was just one of those fluctuating results. You get them. But C&B haven't been fluctuating. They've been stuck in level one at three events since Finlandia.

So . . . ?

This morning I was wondering if maybe the rest of the panel at the U.S. Classic was the difference.

But Bowness was the assistant technical specialist on the panel at both the U.S. Classic and Finlandia too.

So, no.
 
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Dobre

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They're one team. Look at how some of the other teams that have been with them for ages are doing with it. A handful of their teams are successful with it, but a lot of others are struggling.

Bringing this discussion we were having about Gadbois & the pattern levels back. My point earlier having been that Soucisse & Firus (and, I would add, Hawayek & Baker) don't really have the track record to make a comparison and say, these levels have clearly dropped. But this . . .

Chock & Bates:
Lift 4
Finnstep 1
Steps 2 & 2
Twizzles 4 & 3
Diagonal Steps 3

This team has a track record. And it does not look like this.
 

cocotaffy

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So that is the motto of IAM I guess, last year they did talk about it, performance first and levels second. I find it a bit of a dangerous approach. The opposite isn't good either, you then get a stiff performance. So as for many things in life, a middle ground approach here would be advisable especially for a team like C/B who were getting their levels before. For how long looking refreshed will be good enough ? Right now their FD is getting the points but that RD isn't gonna put them on the podium.
 
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aftershocks

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Eh, come on! This is a push to take down U.S. ice dance teams. There's no way that S/K are 4 to 5 points better than Chock/Bates. And there's no way, no way that the Danadians and Wang/Liu are better than Hawayek/Baker! W/L .7 ahead of H/B! Puhleese!!! Give me a break please with that Chaplin program, and with another rendition of Singin' in the Rain. :rolleyes: And fans have been carping overtime on Madi/Zach and Hawayek/Baker for their program choices! :duh: It's just open season apparently on U.S. ice dance teams. As well, there's some obvious backlash being thrown toward Gadbois, but it just can't stick too well with Gadbois being state-of-the-art and coaching so many teams from different countries.

While I think S/K are improved, they simply ain't better than C/B. Both teams are very much on a par, so the politics goes in the Russians' favor obviously. Loads of GOE for S/K, and keeping down C/B's GOE. IOW, C/B being nitpicked and contained, while ignoring S/K's shortcomings.

Wang/Liu being placed ahead of H/B is pure home cookin' nonsense. H/B sat there and took it with barely batting an eye this time. They absolutely know what's happening, especially after being placed behind Fear/Gibson in their last outing. While F/G are wonderful and entertaining, they are not on the same level as H/B technically.

The Danadians are on a par with H/B, but are NOT better than H/B. The Danadians are certainly not 4+ points better than H/B. So here we are back to the days of old way off political placement scoring in ice dance, with U.S. teams in particular being purposely set up this season to be given the short end of the stick because U.S. teams are very competitive and very good, and have been for years. The rest of the world is getting tired of that. And it's also a reaction against North American dominance in ice dance as well. But Canadian fed is much more politically adept than U.S. fed.
 
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aftershocks

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But S/K's pattern looked small and they lacked speed. They'll probably be more at ease in Russia next week. Don't get this nervousness though, the real deal only starts next year with pre Olympic season.

What difference does it make whether S/K are nervous or not? They are sitting in the driver's seat with the judges. Ain't that obvious!

He’s giving too much face.

Both of SinKats were giving 'too much face,' in a very OTT way. C/B, the Danadians and H/B all looked much more natural and genuine in their facial expressions and dramatic performance skills than S/K. I'm sick and tired of Singin' in the Rain and Chaplin programs. More tired of those cliches than I am of disco renditions.
 
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aftershocks

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the danadians should be ahead of c&b.

Be honest please. The Danadians and C/B and S/K are closely matched in terms of skill and performance qualities, and when that's the case, politics comes to the fore, big time. This is a transitional quad and there's lots of political jockeying going on. And there's lots of backlash against North American dominance. So politically, there will be a lot of pitting U.S. teams against each other to take them all down. And with Canada being more adept politically, their teams may end up with an advantage because the skill level is very even with a bunch of top teams. But let's face it that the real push will be to have S/K and S/B on top with S/K given the advantage while pitting the U.S. teams against each other and against the Canadians so that possibly a Canadian team will be on the podium ahead of S/B in Montreal.

Still, because U.S. teams are so good, it's not going to look too good if they are all pushed behind the Russians and the Canadians. Already H/B as the likely third place U.S. team are being pushed down relentlessly now against Canadians, Italians, Russians, and British teams, when they are clearly better than the Italian and British teams technically, and certainly on a par technically with the Canadians, and better technically than Russian S/B team.

Of course P/C are still just better than everyone else. But the Russians are gonna continue pushing every which way but loose to try and unseat P/C at or ahead of the 2022 Olympics.

Truthfully it's difficult at times to take ice dance judging seriously.

Total understatement!
 
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aftershocks

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Are you saying Sin/Kats can't possibly legitimately challenge P/C no matter what?

Yep I'm raising both my hands and feet on that query! No way. S/K don't even truly belong ahead of Hub/Don in terms of overall skill, speed and technique. We know S/B don't really belong ahead of many teams technically.

P/C are head-and-shoulders above S/K, and I do not see that changing in terms of skill and artistry. The scores for S/K are a put-up job, clearly. And the bs scoring is obviously going to continue by hook or by crook. Gadbois is going to have to start playing some serious political hardball. There's no hope for U.S. fed playing political hardball. They don't know how.
 

aftershocks

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There's obviously subjectivity in fs -- no brainer. It's also about who we emotionally favor as fans. Right now, there's huge depth in ice dance with a lot of teams close in skill and performance level. So that's probably the main reason why we are seeing a big return to BS political scoring. Plus, as I said, the rest of the world is tired of North American ice dance dominance.

Pap/Ciz aren't North American, but they obviously train in NA, which is where they gained their mojo, enhanced their skills and confidence, and came into their own creatively. P/C are simply better than everyone else.

As we all know, Elena Ilinykh was simply better with Nikita than Vika is, no matter how much Vika has improved. I/K were good and hot together. While SinKats are attractive together and much improved as a team, Vika still can't hold a candle to Ilinykh, which is hugely sad. By now, it would surely have been Elena and Nikita battling dominance with P/C, no? And it may have been harder for V/M coming back to keep down both P/C and I/K, but V/M could probably have managed it. Altho' it may have been even more of a roller coaster because of the politics factor.

I say I/K may have had a better opportunity to be truly neck-and-neck with P/C. SinKats, no way. But fs fans can keep drinking the kool-aid.

Didn't we get enough of Bobrova/Soloviev being pushed further than they ever deserved to be! At least Step/Buk are more entertaining and SinKats have worked hard to improve. Still S/K are NOT better than many of the top teams. I don't buy any of the S/K fan enabling and judging excuse-making and attempts to justify S/K's rise in scores in this thread, all the while throwing U.S. teams completely under the bus.
 

cocotaffy

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Congrats to C/B, great FD performance and well deserved score. If they can fix their levels in the RD, they might even snitch silver at Worlds. S/K's FD however, what was Zhulin thinking to give them such a boring music and non distinctive program ? Last year's was already not very interesting but the music was better and had high and lows. This is just flat.
Anyway, my ideal world podium at this moment would be P/C, C/B and G/F
 
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