Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[judgejudy27]

With 3 Olympic Gold and 2 silver, 2 individual golds and 1 silver, 3 world titles and numerous silver and bronzes, are they the greatest ice dancing team in history now? It is not all about titles but they are clearly the most accomplished. They also have reached amazing heights both in technical and artistic ability and while they might not have a single program as legendary as say T&D's Bolero or K&P's Bach, their versatility of body of different great works is incredible. The only marks I see against them is they competed in a time of limited depth, particularly 2011-2014 when there were only 2 good teams, and that they won the prestigious GPF a mere 1 time.

 

[judgejudy27]

I also think coming back was a great idea on their part. They already were legends, but they really enhanced their legacy, not just with their titles, but coming back looking far stronger than when they left at an age that is supposed to be almost impossible.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Without a doubt

 

[Twilight1]

To be fair the only comparable team in longevity is Klimova & Ponomarenko with every Olympic colour medal and if team had been around they probably would have medalled in all 3 of those Olympics. Probably with 3 golds

Torvill and Dean were medalists in one quad and their toughest competition were a pair of Soviet's.

Virtue and Moir, Davis & White and now Papadakis and Cizeron were just so good that saying they were simply outstanding is an understatement.

 

[caseyedwards]

No doubt about it! Sorry T/D and G/P, K/P

 

[skatefan]

No.

 

[Twilight1]

No.

Explain? Personal emotion or facts?

 

[aftershocks]

These GOAT arguments are so boring I'd rather go back and watch all the greatest performances of all the greatest teams and athletes in all sports than sit around gabbing about what makes the latest athletes who've achieved rare feats, the greatest.

No athlete does anything in isolation btw. The greatest always stand on the shoulders of those who came before them.

Spend time actually looking at the greatest ice dance performances ever on Youtube, and simply be thankful. Videos should be made of all the greatest hits from all the greatest ice dancers who ever graced the ice, including the most obscure that have been forgotten, as well as the ones we remember like Torvill/Dean, Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Anissina/Peizarat, et al!
I had fun recently looking back at D/W and V/M. Wow, what both teams accomplished that has enriched the sport of figure skating and the ice dance discipline. I'm so thankful to have witnessed the amazing last few years in this sport with the rise of Papadakis/Cizeron and how every team has upped their game. I'm glad V/M came back (which further enlivened the discipline), but the sport needs to do more at all levels, and focus on developing and promoting a viable professional tour to help expand growth and opportunities beyond the eligible ranks.

 

[attyfan]

IMO, that V/M's medal haul included two medals in the Team Event should not be considered; it is an unfair advantage over those who came before that event existed. Also, I am not sure that medal haul alone is determinative; will V/M lose their GOAT status if P/C stick around long enough to get two OGMs as well as their OSM? I have no idea if V/M will revolutionize the sport to the same extent that T/D did, but I think that needs to be ascertained before crowning V/M.

 

[Viscaro]

Look at my signature to see my answer

 

[aliceanne]

What stood out about Torvill and Dean was that throughout their career they selected their own music and did their own choreography, in addition to being innovators and technical experts. There was no Marina or Marie Universe to blame for giving their rivals the competitive edge with better programs.

 

[double runner]

I'm a huge V/M fan but this question isn't really fair.

When we're talking about the number of Olympic medals, you do have to put them up there. I exclude the team events but even still, two golds and a silver speak for themselves.

My only objection to these type of questions is that you can't compare generations against one another. Ice dancing is a completely different animal today under the IJS compared to the 6.0 days, and certainly nothing like the days when compulsory dances were alive and well.

 

[gk_891]

Not sure about THE goat ice dance team but IMO they are one of many goat ice dance teams since it's so hard to compare teams from different eras. But I'd personally rank them right up there with Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Grishuk & Platov (those 3 teams have always been the big 3 for me).

 

[Vash01]

They have the most Olympic medals but I don't think they are greater than Torvill- Dean who revolutionized ice dance, or Klimova- Ponomarenko who were great artists and winners of three Olympic medals without a team event. Also Grishchuk and Platov were the first ice dance team to win back to back OGM. They cannot be ignored either.

I would say V&M are one of the great ice dancers. What impresses me more than their Olympic championships is their longevity, starting way back before they even became senior level skaters.

 

[Twilight1]

They have the most Olympic medals but I don't think they are greater than Torvill- Dean who revolutionized ice dance, or Klimova- Ponomarenko who were great artists an winners of three Olympic medals without a team event. I would say V&M are one of the great ice dancers. What impresses me more than their Olympic championships is their longevity, starting way back before they even became senior level skaters.

Just to be clear V&M won 2 golds and 1 silver which is better overall placements at the Oly's than K&P... (the team medals were just added bonuses)

I was a maybe BTW...

 

[gk_891]

They have the most Olympic medals but I don't think they are greater than Torvill- Dean who revolutionized ice dance, or Klimova- Ponomarenko who were great artists an winners of three Olympic medals without a team event. Also Gishchuk and Platov were the first ice dance team to win back to back OGM. They cannot be ignored either.

I would say V&M are one of the great ice dancers. What impresses me more than their Olympic championships is their longevity, starting way back before they even became senior level skaters.

I think what hurts G&P's reputation (in the eyes of some people anyways) was that they won their first gold medal with one of the most choreographically lacking free dances they ever skated. But emphasizing speed and energy over content that year got the attention of the judges which is why they finally lept up the standings and won that gold medal. OTOH, with fair judging I honestly thought that G&P should've won the silver in Albertville but with the way ice dance was judged at that time, that was never going to happen unless U&Z and D&D both fell multiple times. I also thought they should've been on the podium at the 1991 Worlds instead of D&D and I also thought they should've won the 1993 Worlds which would've upped their medal/gold medal count.

With K&P, I honestly thought they should've been world champions straight from from 85 to 92 and gold medalists in 1988 as well which would've way upped their record in terms of gold medals. But it's been mentioned several times before that if they actually had surpassed B&B earlier on in their career and won multiple Worlds from 85-88 and the Olympics in 88, they likely would've retired afterwards which makes any potential gold medal counts from 89-92 potentially null and void.

Yeah, V&M have had incredible longevity. They truly are an amazing ice dancers both technically and artistically. It's great that Canada can boast of such a team.

 

[vivika1982]

They have the most Olympic medals but I don't think they are greater than Torvill- Dean who revolutionized ice dance, or Klimova- Ponomarenko who were great artists and winners of three Olympic medals without a team event. Also Gishchuk and Platov were the first ice dance team to win back to back OGM. They cannot be ignored either.

And lets not forget the fact that when G/P won their first OG tittle (fair or not) they have skated together for 2-3 years while V/M have been skating as a team for 10 years.I still think they are one of the greatest ice dancers.Yet in my book the greatness is defined not by amount of medals but by a memorable program and with all my due respect from this Olympic games i will remember P/C Moonlight sonata.

 

[Twilight1]

And lets not forget the fact that when G/P won their first OG tittle (fair or not) they have skated together for 2-3 years while V/M have been skating as a team for 10 years.I still think they are one of the greatest ice dancers.Yet in my book the greatness is defined not by amount of medals but by a memorable program and with all my due respect from this Olympic games i will remember P/C Moonlight sonata.

And some people remember Carmen over Memorial, The Season/Concerto in 2014 over Scheherazade etc...

 

[Rossig]

And some people remember Carmen over Memorial, The Season/Concerto in 2014 over Scheherazade etc...

Let's wait a few years to see how remembered the programs are. Never been G/P fan, but it's unfair to say that Carmen is remembered better than Memorial, when the former is still so fresh. I'm not even sure that indeed Carmen is more known to general public. And will for example Moulin Rouge be remembered in 30-40 years all over the world? Personally I don't think so. Even Mahler, which apparently was going to be V/M Bolero is not really known outside the skating world, and it was performed only 8 years ago.

 

[Twilight1]

I remember Krylova and Ovsiannikov's Carmen over Memorial circa 1998.

And V&M's over D&W's Fd in 2014.

Not sure why you would think it would be Carmen of V&M in a non Olympic year when I was reponding to a specific post about Olympic memories.

 

[MsZem]

No. Virtue and Moir are human and not goats.

More seriously: I don't think it's possible to compare between eras given how much ice dance has changed over the years, as well as the additional opportunities for medals that now exist. I'm also not a fan of trying to determine who's greatest. I'd say that V/M are certainly among the greats. I don't know that they've had the impact that T/D have had, though - but then again, who has?

 

[Rossig]

Not sure why you would think it would be Carmen of V&M in a non Olympic year when I was reponding to a specific post about Olympic memories.

Ok, sorry. My fault. Being at work and commenting is not a good idea .

 

[muffinplus]

I was trying to find a picture of goats on ice, but nothing came up on Google.

 

[MsZem]

I was trying to find a picture of goats on ice, but nothing came up on Google.

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

 

[muffinplus]

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

So much grace from those goats! Now that's what I call dancing! Your faves could neva

 

[Anyasnake]

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

How can anyone claim that V/M, or T/D, G/P are GOATs after seeing this ? Unbelievable. This is what GOATs are. Quintessential GOATs !

I'll be a little bit more serious : No. V/M are not GOATs.

Yet ? You have to ask me in 10 years though. How can anyone said T/D were GOATs in 1984, or even 1994 ?

I hold the GOAT title for T/D because of what they gave AFTER the competition and are still giving today, especially Chris. So the impact is coming after. It had nothing to do with the numbers of medals of the color, otherwise I'd say that G/P are superior in that theory to T/D. Absolutely not.
In order between those 3, I'd probably go with T/D > V/M > G/P anyway.

Then T/D brought Ice Dance to the international scene so much. But, yeah, ask me in 10 years This is where it will truly make sense !

 

[Viscaro]

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

Don't wanna be the one to start another comment war but the sheeps in that video were clearly better. InternationalShepherdUnion politicking again.

And I say that as a Goat fan.

Edit : Seriously, that video was the cutest. I must really love sheep and goats videos.

Edit 2 : I learned the plural of sheep today ! What a day.

 

[muffinplus]

Don't wanna be the one to start another comment war but the sheeps in that video were clearly better. InternationalShepherdUnion politicking again.

And I say that as a Goat fan.

Edit : Seriously, that video was the cutest. I must really love sheep and goats videos.

Sheeps Sorry, every time I hear that I think of that Koola King on youtube. Medvedeva sheep*s*?

 

[muffinplus]

Edit 2 : I learned the plural of sheep today ! What a day.

 

[judgejudy27]

A lot of good points made by everyone, but there is one comment I saw I have to take exception with. While I agree things are different than the CD era I would argue it is far harder today than the CD era. In the compulsory dance era standings almost never changed after the CD, like atleast 95% of the time, and once you became the champion team you coasted to victory based on a pre set judging protocal for years unless someone proved they were way better than you. In the CD days V&M for instance probably win every Worlds and Olympics they enter after winning in Vancouver, which assuming they compete in the same ones would give them 3 consecutive Olympic Golds and 6 world titles, just by virtue of protocal, being the established champions and being stronger in CDs than D&W (and possibly P&C, we never saw it, but they are clearly stronger in the compulsor OD of today which is closer to the CDs than the FD). Instead V&M had to deal with an era without compulsories breeding actual real competition, not a simple coronation for the champion as Torvill & Dean, Bestiamanova & Bukin, Gritschuk & Platov, Pakhomova & Gorshkov, and many other established #1 teams got for many years. The only exception is Klimova & Ponomarenko who had to face the political push and popularity of the Duchensays, despite the Duchensays being relatively weak in CDs.