U.S. Ladies [#20]: In a Week, Maybe Two, They'll Make You a Star

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I don't know-- Bradie did well in one or two competitions, right? She reminds me of Polina Edmunds 4 years ago physically. If only Mirai can be fierce and not underrotate, and not fall on her triple axel attempt. At least her programs are a lot better this year than "The Winner Takes It All," which took the cake for one of the dreariest free skate song selections ever. Or maybe Karen Chen will surprise everyone again and land everything; when she's on, she's amazing too. I predict Mirai, Ashley and Karen on the podium.
 
TSL posted instagrams of practice today. They said Bradie's nailing all the jumps in practice. Karen's 3-3 looked huge as usual, but the 3T was very noticeably UR. Say what you will about TSL but their practice reports/footage are usually pretty good.
 
Not sure if this article has been shared elsewhere:

Where Are the American Women in Olympic Figure Skating? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/sports/olympics/figure-skating-united-states.html

Just a summary for the general public of the chatter that’s been happening here for the past 3 Olympic cycles :lol:
I think the culture we have created in the US is the biggest problem. When you start kids in sports...and "everyone is a winner" and achievements are not rewarded because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings [and I am not talking about skating] we create kids that don t know what to do when the going gets tough. Kids need to learn how to deal with unfairness..hard work and picking yourself back up. In Russia the kids keep working .... what else are they going to do? Complain? Nope there are too many people waiting for an opportunity.
 
I think the culture we have created in the US is the biggest problem. When you start kids in sports...and "everyone is a winner" and achievements are not rewarded because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings [and I am not talking about skating] we create kids that don t know what to do when the going gets tough. Kids need to learn how to deal with unfairness..hard work and picking yourself back up. In Russia the kids keep working .... what else are they going to do? Complain? Nope there are too many people waiting for an opportunity.

Except achievement is rewarded. The problem isn’t not rewarding achievement, it is not rewarding hard work. We praise talent not hard work. Kids are told in no uncertain terms that talent is what is important. The problem is that talent is about 1% of figure skating. It is what will push you from top 20 at worlds to top 5. Everything else is hard work, money, good coaching, and a lot of luck.

Talented kids also often think that if you have to work hard at something then you are not talented. So when the going gets tough (usually everything after double lutz) many kids quit because they would rather quit and still be seen as talented.

Achievement gets a medal at a competition. That is how it should be. Other rewards (carnival solos, extra coaching, club awards) should focus on the kids who work hard. Now hopefully the kids winning at comps are also working hard, but if they are not, they should not be further rewarded. Parents should be told in no uncertain terms that extra lesson time is given out based on hard work, showing up ready and prepared, doing a proper off ice warm up etc etc. We need to train our kids that the journey is about what you put into it, not the medals, and then we need to walk that talk.

“Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.” Wayne Gretzky
 
I think the culture we have created in the US is the biggest problem. When you start kids in sports...and "everyone is a winner" and achievements are not rewarded because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings [and I am not talking about skating] we create kids that don t know what to do when the going gets tough. Kids need to learn how to deal with unfairness..hard work and picking yourself back up. In Russia the kids keep working .... what else are they going to do? Complain? Nope there are too many people waiting for an opportunity.

I totally agree this is a major issue (and it will hurt even more in the future) but when would you say this really came into play? American culture hasn't always been like that. I'm an American, with younger siblings who all grew up in the 90s and mid 2000s :shuffle:, but I never encountered this "everybody is a winner" mentality (at least promoted on such a mass level) until the Obama presidency of the last 8 years.

We had sporting/academic events in school and my siblings and I participated in community sporting leagues and while we got participant ribbons (not always but sometimes depending on the event/occasion) the winners were always treated as WINNERS and never had to downplay or feel ashamed. They got all those extra little perks that young kids get like pictures in the local paper, congrats from the local politicians, name mentioned in school morning announcements, bigger and extra trophies/prizes, etc. And of course there were students who always got way more prize achievements then others year after year :lol:. They were singled out and applauded.
 
Well I think if Bradie does make the Olympic team (I think its hers to lose but nothing is a done deal until its over) then I think she should automatically be placed in the team competition regardless of her lack of seniority compared to the other ladies (Mirai, Ashley, Karen). If I were the USFSA I would put her on it right after nationals is done without even thinking twice
 
I totally agree this is a major issue (and it will hurt even more in the future) but when would you say this really came into play? American culture hasn't always been like that. I'm an American, with younger siblings who all grew up in the 90s and mid 2000s :shuffle:, but I never encountered this "everybody is a winner" mentality (at least promoted on such a mass level) until the Obama presidency of the last 8 years.

We had sporting/academic events in school and my siblings and I participated in community sporting leagues and while we got participant ribbons (not always but sometimes depending on the event/occasion) the winners were always treated as WINNERS and never had to downplay or feel ashamed. They got all those extra little perks that young kids get like pictures in the local paper, congrats from the local politicians, name mentioned in school morning announcements, bigger and extra trophies/prizes, etc. And of course there were students who always got way more prize achievements then others year after year :lol:. They were singled out and applauded.
In my experience I would say the 90s and it has been downhill ever since. I live in .ca. in the VERY liberal San Francisco
Bay area. We are always a leader in liberal insanity.
I was Pres of the Board of a Jewish day school. A fifth grade teacher created a contest for her kids. An ice cream party for the kids who turned in their homework every day for a week. Four kids did not turn in their homework. Everyone else got ice cream. Monday morning....4 parents in the office irate that their children were excluded... huh? All they had to do was turn in their work.
I go to my grandkids sporting events...no awards
..everyone gets the same trophy
..and the kicker you can't use adjectives when you cheer.

We do a disservice to our children when we tell them they can do or be anything.....They can't. I wanted to be a ballet dancer. I am 5' 10 ". Not gonna happen. Kids have to learn to lose, work hard and keep going.

Although skating avoids much of the insanity because it is results centered. You can see the issue in pairs most clearly...no instant success change partners...coaches...etc. Kids get moved along to the next level without having to demonstrate correct edges on their jumps. Seems crazy to me. The edge calls...constant under rotations, and pairs who never Land their jumps is nuts. Eteris kids are trained to jump correctly and compete consistently....or they are eeeded out
 
The US has never been a country where success is based on some national "culture", that talk is just feels like misplaced political posturing. Who cares about how many trophies they give to kids, it's not going to change shit either way.

If anything being culture, it's the parents not pushing their kids. If they are Asian or Russian immigrants they often act differently towards their kids, tough love.

Elite athletes become elite athletes in the U.S. because of individual decisions by the parents, coaches and kid. It's not a product of some U.S. culture.

Russia has kept the old communist system of centralizing the training and state-sponsoring elite athletes, factory style. In China if you win an Olympic gold you are set, government will cushion you with a good life. There you could actually speak about a national culture nurturing athletes.

With less artistry and more technical elements being rewarded, young Russian teenagers who burn out in injuries or anorexia before they reach the age where they can excel artistically will win. It is what it is.
 
Yes...but we don't want to push our little dears because they are fragile....hence everyone gets a trophy and teams don t keep score.
 
Yes...but we don't want to push our little dears because they are fragile....hence everyone gets a trophy and teams don t keep score.

Every parent is free to push their kids as they wish. The Asians do it, hence why the two National champions family name is Chen right now.
 
In my experience, skating parents are trying their best to balance realistic goals with aggressive positive support. Perhaps if there was more sponsorship from the government, like there is in Russia and Japan, things might be easier. Skating is time consuming, expensive and a big gamble. To blame parents is unfair and unsupported by evidence.
 
Eteri has said that when she has come to the US, the skaters she worked with worked harder than her own skaters. Furthermore, it seems to me that if this was a cultural problem, the US would struggle to have successful skaters in any discipline, which is not the case.

Its a cycle. I personally was extremely impressed with the crop of younger ladies I've been seeing at juniors and lower. Obviously there's no telling how they'll develop, but there's a lot of talent there.
 
In my experience, skating parents are trying their best to balance realistic goals with aggressive positive support. Perhaps if there was more sponsorship from the government, like there is in Russia and Japan, things might be easier. Skating is time consuming, expensive and a big gamble. To blame parents is unfair and unsupported by evidence.

You are right. I am not blaming parents though, just saying it's a free choice to make (that is, if you have the money!). What I am saying is that it was most probably extremely irrelevant for Nathan Chen's career how many throphies were given out in his school.
 
@toddlj ITA. The lack of state sponsoring and cultural differences are a huge part.
@Per I agree that parents should push their kids, but only if their child wants to be pushed and not to the point of abusing their kids or others. I have seen both. At least one of the up and comers has a parent famous for abusing others to get their child to the top - it's more common than you think, but usually those kids burn out before they reach the Senior ranks.
You should never force a child to do something they hate or expect them to win everything. It's unrealistic and ultimately harms the child. Of kids with parents like that, I've seen many at my rink fail epically. They win at the lower levels when they're young, and then as they get old enough to realize they are afraid of failure (due to their parents' behavior) they end up failing more. Heck, I've seen many girls cry during practice because their overbearing parents push them too hard. One girl was shopped out to the media by her mother and then ended up falling - leading the Mom to verbally abuse her. Another had a bad injury, and her coach asked her to drop out of Sectionals (competing on a severe groin strain worsened the injury), causing the skater's mother to switch coaches against the skater's will in a way that gained the skater a lot of bad will with a lot of local coaches (she hid the injury from the new coach so her daughter could compete). Guess what? That skater pretty much shunned from our rink and has been getting a lot worse results since.
The skaters that do the best are those that have parents who push them into going into the rink when they're having a bad day or encourage them to up their training hours or switch coaches, but ultimately want to be pushed. Those skaters have the drive, desire, and attitude to succeed in skating independent of their parents, but like all of us sometimes need a little push to help keep us going.

In my experience I would say the 90s and it has been downhill ever since. I live in .ca. in the VERY liberal San Francisco
Bay area. We are always a leader in liberal insanity.
I was Pres of the Board of a Jewish day school. A fifth grade teacher created a contest for her kids. An ice cream party for the kids who turned in their homework every day for a week. Four kids did not turn in their homework. Everyone else got ice cream. Monday morning....4 parents in the office irate that their children were excluded... huh? All they had to do was turn in their work.
I go to my grandkids sporting events...no awards

..everyone gets the same trophy
..and the kicker you can't use adjectives when you cheer.

We do a disservice to our children when we tell them they can do or be anything.....They can't. I wanted to be a ballet dancer. I am 5' 10 ". Not gonna happen. Kids have to learn to lose, work hard and keep going.

It's not a liberal thing. I live in the most conservative school district in the Bay Area, and this attitude was more rampant here than anywhere I've lived before - both from liberal and conservative parents. Much more rampant than my friends who grew up in Berkeley, San Francisco, Oakland, etc. That included parents suing the school district because their kid didn't make the Varsity team, parents angry that their child was punished for breaking rules, parents openly insulting kids who got a solo in the choir concert over their less talented child, parents offering the school money to cover up their child's rape of another student, parents storming into classrooms to confront teachers when their child got an F for plagiarizing a paper, parents almost getting a teacher fired because his tests were "too hard," parents forcing a gay teacher to not have any pictures of his partner on his desk because it "would set a bad example for our kids," parents getting a long-time high school principal fired because she suspended some girls that brought fake guns to school, parents threatening to sue the district because their sons assaulted another kid and were suspended (threatening their college football scholarships) etc. etc. Parents being upset that you hold their children accountable for their own mistakes is stupid and it happens everywhere - liberal or conservative. Unfortunately I see it happening more and more. It seems parents just can't recognize that sometimes their precious little baby isn't a good human being.

As for no awards, I agree that's ridiculous. I don't think every child should get a winner's trophy - only the winners - but I think that kids should get trophies for hard work. Teens probably don't need them, but I think that giving trophies to award hard work will encourage kids to keep working even if they aren't winning. Certainly many kids (like my sister and I) recognized that we didn't deserve the trophy, but it was a good learning moment. When my sister asked my dad why she got a trophy for last place, he told her it was because she deserved an award for sticking with something and working hard even if it wasn't going well. That encouraged her to continue to work hard even if she knew she wouldn't win it. That's a lesson I think most of us can learn.

I think we do a disservice by telling them they can be anything, but I think we should encourage them to stretch their limits. Maybe not everyone can be Michelle Kwan, but it's no reason to quit skating if you like it. I skated and lost a lot until I found my niche, but I loved skating. If someone had discouraged me from doing that and told me to join something else, I don't think I would be the person I am today. The fact that I lost made me stronger and made me realize that winning hardly mattered if you loved what you were doing. It made me realize that I wouldn't die if I lost.
I think this is the bigger problem with US skating culture - Russian ladies lose often due to their depth, or may experience failure while watching their training mate succeed every day. The US ladies usually win or get on the podium their whole way up through the system and don't have competition to beat them in your every day practice runthroughs. If you have a bad day, it's "thank goodness no one saw me fail like that," not "she's doing better than me today, but that's okay - I'll beat her tomorrow." Learning to lose is an important skill that I feel isn't taught young enough to US skaters.

I totally agree this is a major issue (and it will hurt even more in the future) but when would you say this really came into play? American culture hasn't always been like that. I'm an American, with younger siblings who all grew up in the 90s and mid 2000s :shuffle:, but I never encountered this "everybody is a winner" mentality (at least promoted on such a mass level) until the Obama presidency of the last 8 years.

I don't know why you're bringing Obama into this. When I was very young (the 90s) I was still given participation ribbons and trophies at nearly every event I went to. Of course the winners would still get bigger trophies, but we were all rewarded for our hard work. Didn't make me or any of the other kids in those competitions work and less in life - many of us are very successful and hardworking. And there are a lot of competitions that only award medals to the winners to this day - believe me, I've seen enough furious parents complaining that their kid got nothing. (Honestly I think the point of participation trophies is so that parents don't throttle officials when their kid doesn't win)
 
Culturally, I think it’s a lot less “every kid gets a trophy” and more the news-cycle of capitalism/commercialism. Every pretty tyke with a few triples is the next “it girl” and if she brings home anything less that gold, the knives come out and the pedestal is swiftly kicked out from under her. Is the rise of social media and the demise of us ladies dominance purely coincidental?

I’m not sure one system is better than the rest. Is it better that Harding was hit by her mom vs. Witt hit by her coach? Tomato, toma-Hto.

And I don’t care how you spin it, Bradie’s bronze and Ashley’s bronze are still two us gp medals. Even if she implodes next week and promptly retires she’ll still be THE only us lady to medal at worlds in a decade and according to “the Tara rule” no one can ever take that away, so hate on haterz :p
 
For the record, I largely prefer the American way, of sports being based on free will and individual decisions. You live for yourself and not for the sporting glory of your country. There can definitely be a discussion on a lack of a support system, but overall I am comfortable with the thought of a champion being born out of talent, sacrifice, mental toughness and hard work, which was always the choice the athlete him or herself made. So what if we produce less amount of 10-year olds with all the triples already in their repertoar. The pursuit of happiness is not always chasing an olympic gold medal.
 
If there was an underlying cultural attitude that discouraged hard work and competitiveness, U.S. women wouldn't be as wildly successful in other sports as they are. I think there is simply a smaller pool of skaters than there used to be because there are so many other options for athletic girls, options that are cheaper and more popular.
 
If there was an underlying cultural attitude that discouraged hard work and competitiveness, U.S. women wouldn't be as wildly successful in other sports as they are. I think there is simply a smaller pool of skaters than there used to be because there are so many other options for athletic girls, options that are cheaper and more popular.

This! Girls are simply participating in a number of sports in big numbers that weren’t traditionally open to their participation. I’m an adult skater and I see many more young girls in hockey skates than figure skates at the rinks in my state. Skating does not provide many college scholarship opportunities either. With the exhorbitant cost of college, most parents probably encourage participation in sports that might help pay for college. Skating sucks family bank accounts dry. I think gymnastics is saved, even though it’s a traditional female sport in the US, because it provides a boatload of college scholarships. All the talk of “it’s liberals/Obama’s fault is crazy talk. It’s not conservatives fault either. I do wonder why our country is so hyper-politicized...and sad about it. But in no way do I see politics involved in why ladies skating is no longer as popular here for girls to take up. It’s just more popular to do other sports right now.
 
You should never force a child to do something they hate
I disagree.
See Dinh Tranh's article posted earlier:
The teen acknowledges he’d have never reached this level without his mother’s persistence.

“When I was small, I didn’t know what I was doing,” said Dinh, adding that he didn’t like skating. “My mom just made me do it. She took me to the rink even when I didn’t want to do it.”
When I was young, I hated practicing piano, but my parents gave me no choice but to persist at it for many years until I learned to love it. Most kids don't like homework (and hate ear exams and shots at the doctor's office...) but that's too bad--they need to do it.

I agree that there's an "everyone's a winner" attitude in US public schools, but, like many in this thread, I don't think it has anything to do with US figure skating competitiveness. It's a cyclical sport. In the past few years, USA women's gymnastics has been just like Eteri's girls--high technical content, fiercely competitive, and consistent.
 
I disagree.
See Dinh Tranh's article posted earlier:
When I was young, I hated practicing piano, but my parents gave me no choice but to persist at it for many years until I learned to love it. Most kids don't like homework (and hate ear exams and shots at the doctor's office...) but that's too bad--they need to do it.
I think there's a difference between hating the practice and hating the thing itself. I didn't like practicing piano when I was a kid either. But I started to like it a lot more after I learned to sight-read so I could play Disney songs after my Bach and Mozart. That was after years of practicing only what my mom and teachers told me what to play. Having some autonomy over the activity counts for a lot.

The part about persistence is to teach kids that hard work equals improvement. It means working through the slog so you come out better on the other side. I got that from piano, and now I enjoy it because I know that working hard means getting better, getting to the level that you want to be at. That doesn't happen when you just hate the thing.

I've always hated math. No matter how many advanced classes I took or how my nerdy engineer dad joyfully explained the concepts to me or how long I spent on the math team in school, my brain still goes :scream: when I see numbers and variables. Working harder at math only made me hate it more. I did advanced calculus in college, and only because I needed it for my biology major (which I no longer use, at all). I don't remember any of it from school, and on the whole, I'm glad for it. :EVILLE:
 
Too bad ISU ranking points aren't used as a form of pre - qualification for big events like Worlds, Europeans, and Four Continents. That way, as with tennis, the very best skaters are sent to these events, and not up to just the top three from each country.
 
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I think there's a difference between hating the practice and hating the thing itself. I didn't like practicing piano when I was a kid either. But I started to like it a lot more after I learned to sight-read so I could play Disney songs after my Bach and Mozart. That was after years of practicing only what my mom and teachers told me what to play. Having some autonomy over the activity counts for a lot.

I think you have just defined the difference between Wagner and Gold.

Gold seemed at the mercy of her team, and Ashley is the boss.
 
What @mtnskater said. There are a lot of sports open to girls now than before -- sports that are less expensive, more accessible, school-sponsored, and with scholarships attached. Around here lacrosse, field hockey and cheer are huge, as are soccer and softball. The hours for practice fit parents' schedules better and team sports are always going to be less expensive than the roughly $30-50,000 per year it takes to keep an elite skater on the ice.

As for trophies, sure, give every kid a trophy. Who cares. You can buy them online for $5 and have "Olympic Champ" engraved on it. I received participation trophies way back in the 70s for dance and my dad received one back in the 50s for baseball. I was under no illusion that I was going to the Kirov and my dad didn't show up uninvited to Mets training camp. For some kids, just stepping on to the field and trying to look athletic is a huge accomplishment -- maybe more of an accomplishment that the kid who hits all the home runs because the kid who "just participated" didn't have anyone at home to play catch with him, or his mom is ill, or his dad is working three jobs, or he's being bullied at school and told by other kids to stay off the team....I don't get this whole "kids gotta learn about real life as soon as possible so let's do it by sucking all the joy out of their childhood and in the process make them hate sports so they sit inside and play video games instead" attitude.

Believe me, kids get that life is rough and unfair. Youth suicide is at its highest rate ever, the number two killer of boys between the ages of 14-25, and increasing in young girls. That's not all mental illness or bullying; that's the freaking hard-knock life of uber-competitiveness in schools, starting in middle school, hearing that your whole entire life is hinging on testing and grades, starting with 7th grade pre-Algebra, if not your first grade reading scores.

Youth sports are more competitive than ever and parents and other adults are doing their darndest to make young athletes' lives a misery, from forcing them to specialize early in a sport, thereby subjecting them to overuse injuries, burnout and just ending up hating the sport they once loved.

If you gave every kid on my son's hockey team a trophy that said "You're the Awesome-ist," they would still know who scored the most goals, who is the best team player, who is the kid who gets the most penalities, who gives their all at practice, who always loses his equipment, etc. And those trophies could all be 10 feet tall, and believe me, no one is under the false impression that they are going to be called up by the NHL. And if you gave none of them a trophy and stopped keeping scores at games, they would still know what's what. (Honestly, I think it's mostly the parents who want to keep score at games -- I've heard more than one kids say they'd love to play games with no parents watching because of the grief they get before, during and after the games.)

Kids are smart. They know when an 11th place finish at a large qualifying competition is a bigger personal "win" than a gold medal at a small, club competition. They know when a clean lutz at a competition that doesn't have video playback is a "gimme" they might not get at a competition where the tech panel is watching slow motion replay.

I have three kids. Here's my deal.
  • Unless you're out running or riding your bike every day, you have to do "something active" in an organized way.
  • "Something active" can be dance, martial arts, team sports, individual sports, a class at the local gym
  • If you join a team, you need to show up for practice and participate and do what the coach is asking you to do
  • For team sports, you can only quit after the season is over, unless there is an abusive situation going on
  • Once I sign a check -- for a competition or coaching session or clinic -- you will participate or pay me back
  • You can't quit on a "bad note" e.g. if you are frustrated by a skill that your coach thinks you can learn, come up with a goal-setting plan to work the problem. This is a life skill and one of the most important reasons you are playing sports, not trying to get to the Olympics or World Cup or NHL or whatever.
  • If you switch sports, you need to give the new sport 3-6 months before switching again.
  • Collect all the participation trophies and medals you want. I trust you to figure out which one have meaning for you.
Anything above recreational competitive sports needs to be kid-driven. When it comes to sports, kids should not be forced, ultimately, to do things they hate. Being an elite skater means a huge sacrifice of a child's time, body and potentially their education and emotional and social life. If a kid is not pushing to be at the elite level, a parent should not be pushing, and nor should anyone else. It won't work. If anything, sensible coaches and parents will be holding uber-driven kids back so they don't compete while injured or over-practice or not give up all their time to one activity.

When kids are young in a sport, parents help kids organize and learn responsibility and teach them how to work through challenges, but at some point, the kid needs to internalize that motivation if they want to go above and beyond. If they don't, oh well. It's OK. It may not be good for U.S. Figure Skating -- maybe -- but it will be good for individual human beings.
 
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Yes...but we don't want to push our little dears because they are fragile....hence everyone gets a trophy and teams don t keep score.

Our little American dears have been pushing plenty in gymnastics for the past two decades. (And the Russian gymnastics fans have been complaining that the artistry of the sport is being destroyed by those athletic American girls;)). It's not about culture. It does definitely have a relationship with coaching.

And it is the scoring systems. This is what the current scoring systems reward.
 
I disagree.
See Dinh Tranh's article posted earlier:
When I was young, I hated practicing piano, but my parents gave me no choice but to persist at it for many years until I learned to love it. Most kids don't like homework (and hate ear exams and shots at the doctor's office...) but that's too bad--they need to do it.

This is not what I said. What I said is that parents should not force a kid to do a sport that they have zero interest in doing and continue having zero interest in doing. If it is necessary (like ear exams and vaccines) I'm fine with that. But sports and hobbies are not necessary at all.

As I mentioned, I've met Dinh and his mother - both loved skating a lot. I'm sure what he meant was that, like any other kid, you have times when you want to quit the sport you're doing - not because you hate the sport itself, but because you are being bullied for skating, are hitting a wall in your sport, want to try sports other kids are doing, or simply hate getting up so early in the morning for practice. No matter how much you love something, you will hit moments when you don't want to continue, and having someone push you through that is fine.
 
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