Unbalanced Performances

gkelly

gkelly

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Here's a thread to discuss and give examples of programs that deserve significantly different scores for different components.

On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is clinging to the boards or standing still, 5 is "belongs in seniors but nothing special," and 10 is among the best ever seen, what are some performances you think deserve a difference of 2.0 or more points between their highest and lowest components?

It's probably fairly common for the Skating Skill to be much different from the more artistic criteria, or for the Transitions to be significantly lacking in an otherwise strong performance.

Can we think of examples in which Performance, Composition, and Interpretation do not all deserve to be within the same close range?

Feel free to choose performances from the 6.0 era as well.

I'll start out by naming Oksana Baiul's showtunes medley freeskate. I think her musical interpretation is excellent and deserves 9s on a good day, but the program construction is pretty average.
 
I am bumping it up, because yes, there are plenty of performances where IN is different from P/E, in my opinion. I'll have to look for examples and will be back (cannot take time now, unfortunately).
But, for example, Jeremy Abbott's performances often deserved higher IN than P/E; Fernandez's- higher P/E than IN, though not lately- he really improved IN over the years. I am not sure about 2 point difference, but over 1, which I think is significant.
I feel very strongly that to evaluate musicality and performance quality/execution separately is a better way, as to me, there are different things.
Choreography is trickier and has been rather a grey area to me, as it sits in-between transitions and performance aspect.
 
So choreography could be good but the skater doesn't use appropriate moves on the musical accents, highs/lows, misses them or doesn't emphasize them at the right time. Or doesn't hold a position long enough.
 
IceAlisa said:
So choreography could be good but the skater doesn't use appropriate moves on the musical accents, highs/lows, misses them or doesn't emphasize them at the right time. Or doesn't hold a position long enough.
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That, too. Very often when a skater is unsure and loses the rhythm in the beginning (jump preparation etc) we see 2 scenarios:
1. Skater starts rushing to catch up with the music, and messes up more. Often happens to acutely musically aware skaters, as skating out of rhythm is a physical discomfort.
2. Skater methodically goes through the program and every accent is behind, but the program is clean-ish. Please don't eat me, but that's what happens quite a bit to Max Aaron or Mirai, skaters who are taught to concentrate on technical. Not at their two last GP though:) In that case, IN must suffer, but not CH.

It is quite a skill for a skater to find the music flow no matter the mistakes. The best in IN do it; Kostner does it, Brown does it... Farris in his "Schindler's List" would sometimes get off the exact choreo but managed to make every gesture fit the music and be significant regardless, even if it was falling on a different beat than choreographed. It is a difficult feat to accomplish, deserves high IN, and I was impressed.
 
I was just thinking about Mirai. The frustrating thing is that she is capable of good P/E and IN but she lets it go.

IN for me would be how well does the skater represent the character he or she is portraying or if there's just a mood to the music, how well do they fit it.

For instance, Zagitova does not get a good IN for me. But neither does she in P/E or CH which is incidental. Osmond should get higher IN as a Black Swan, if we were to compare.
 
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Other people whose IN was/is much better than P/E include Takahiko Kozuka (a prime example, and if one did not separate musicality and presentation, I would find him very hard to judge) and Tomoki Hiwatachi.
 
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IceAlisa said:
For instance, Zagitova does not get a good IN for me. But neither does she in P/E or CH which is incidental. Osmond should get higher IN as a Black Swan, if we were to compare.
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See, I think Zagitova's Black Swan choreo is much more compelexed and she has better better body movements than Osmond. But iIf I were to choose Osmond's SP with Zagitova's SP, I would choose Osmond.
 
Amantide said:
See, I think Zagitova's Black Swan choreo is much more compelexed and she has better better body movements than Osmond. But iIf I were to choose Osmond's SP with Zagitova's SP, I would choose Osmond.
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Zagitova is 15. Does she have the life experience to effectively portray a sexy and confident seductress? That’s to IN, where Osmond is a lot more successful. As to the quality of movement, stretch, finish, musicality—while Osmond could improve in all of these, Zagitova is barely watchable.
 
I am very conflicted about Medvedeva. On paper, she seems to fulfill the criteria very well. In fact, however, she and her team are essentially making stories up and calling them original interpretation. If one takes the stories away, she is just skating rather blandly and aimlessly, miming to pretty music instead of skating to the phrasing and tempo of the music. She fills up her programs with moves but she hardly makes anything important. The music does not enhance the moves and the moves do not enhance the music. When I watch her, I never feel anything, no inspiration, no emotions, no nothing, no matter how rich the music is in itself (e.g. her short program, minus the weird noises). When I watch her without the sound on, it is always the same.

She has good posture and is sharp and precise, but I can hardly agree with the 9s and 10s thrown at her for all the artistically related components. On her usual good day, I think my scoring for her would be 8.5, 9.5, 7, 7, 7.
 
Marco said:
I am very conflicted about Medvedeva. On paper, she seems to fulfill the criteria very well. In fact, however, she and her team are essentially making stories up and calling them original interpretation. If one takes the stories away, she is just skating rather blandly and aimlessly, miming to pretty music instead of skating to the phrasing and tempo of the music. She fills up her programs with moves but she hardly makes anything important. The music does not enhance the moves and the moves do not enhance the music. When I watch her, I never feel anything, no inspiration, no emotions, no nothing, no matter how rich the music is in itself (e.g. her short program, minus the weird noises). When I watch her without the sound on, it is always the same.

She has good posture and is sharp and precise, but I can hardly agree with the 9s and 10s thrown at her for all the artistically related components. On her usual good day, I think my scoring for her would be 8.5, 9.5, 7, 7, 7.
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Honestly, her only interpretation is the famous "O face", and some over-acting.
She needs more maturity to understand that she can interpret music with her whole body. ;)
 
briancoogaert said:
Honestly, her only interpretation is the famous "O face", and some over-acting.
She needs more maturity to understand that she can interpret music with her whole body. ;)
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I have to strongly disagree that she doesn't have the maturity of skill to interpret music with her whole body. Her 2016 LP was the most memorable to me perhaps since it's the one I saw live at Worlds, but she definitely demonstrates it in other programs too. The choreography before and during the footwork were really memorable in using her entire body well to the music, and I especially loved the perfect timing of the rocker, counter, loop (with illusion on the exit) to the music. A combination of 3 difficult turns on one foot with rhythm is something all skaters are going for since one of the footwork features requires that (now there has to be one on each foot), but hers was the best example I remember as far as one that really made sense with the music.
https://youtu.be/1px1pFiFCcs?t=104
 
RFOS said:
I have to strongly disagree that she doesn't have the maturity of skill to interpret music with her whole body. Her 2016 LP was the most memorable to me perhaps since it's the one I saw live at Worlds, but she definitely demonstrates it in other programs too. The choreography before and during the footwork were really memorable in using her entire body well to the music, and I especially loved the perfect timing of the rocker, counter, loop (with illusion on the exit) to the music. A combination of 3 difficult turns on one foot with rhythm is something all skaters are going for since one of the footwork features requires that (now there has to be one on each foot), but hers was the best example I remember as far as one that really made sense with the music.
https://youtu.be/1px1pFiFCcs?t=104
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I liked that program but feel that while she is remarkable as an undefeated competitor, I haven't fallen for any of her programs since. :( I like her and feel she deserves better, more tasteful material without the moaning and the choo choo train.
 
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IceAlisa said:
I liked that program but feel that while she is remarkable as an undefeated competitor, I haven't fallen for any of her programs since. :( I like her and feel she deserves better, more tasteful material without the moaning and the choo choo train.
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Ironically I have better memories of her junior programs.
 
What about Sasha Cohen and Kostner pre-2011? In Sasha's case, were her SS not inferior to her IN or did she improve on them enough after SLC? I never heard any chatter about deeper edging and such, so I think it would have likely been deserved. Additionally, her P/E for certain skates probably should have dropped.

Kostner, OTOH, always had brilliant SS, but hit-or-miss TR and CH, awkward IN, and P/E ranging from terrible to mediocre, IMO.

I wonder if any judge actually thinks through each component at this point. I think they more likely think 'CK, if clean, is a 9" and for a clean skate, gives 9s +/- .25 and -.5 for TR, while maybe dropping a point for a bomb of a skate. I can't see how else one would end up with the scores we see, all nicely clustered. In which case, just drop SS and TR already so that the true artistic components can be accurately assessed. I would imagine one with poor SS will feel the impact in her GOE, and throughout her PCS anyway. Transitions, meanwhile, would be judged under CH and boost GOE if done strategically around elements.
 
briancoogaert said:
Honestly, her only interpretation is the famous "O face", and some over-acting.
She needs more maturity to understand that she can interpret music with her whole body. ;)
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In all fairness Med is much better this year. She has been working on extensions arm movements etc. Problem is..how can you reward her for this when her PCS for anything artistic have always been way too high...so no she should not be given anything higher. It is kinda sad because if anyone else does outskate her they would need to be given tens in PCS so how could they possibly win.
 
attyfan said:
If the current PCS categories were applied to this 6.0 program, I think it would qualify as unbalanced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zir_Bj7Dw8E&t=28s

IMO, Michelle's PE and SS (mental focus being a skating skill not adequately covered in the Tech mark) should be very high, but her TR and CH should not.
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Michelle deserved extra points for that performance, IMO, right after there was that streaker on the ice. Also, there is no longer a CH score. It is composition. I thought this program had good composition--the way it built towards the end and the explosive footwork sequence. She had a mistake here--a popped jump--but she skated it clean at Nationals. No difficult transitions, it's true, but the rest is very good and the Nationals version is often mentioned as one of Michelle's best and a fan all-time favorite.
 
Marco said:
https://youtu.be/iVhIyucC2_s?t=225

So check out Medvedeva's ChSq here: a skid spiral in which the forward edge rocked uncontrollably and the back edge was held for less than a split second, and a one second ina bauer in which she didn't even seriously try to lean back. What's the GOE you ask? Right, +2s and +3s across the board.

Why bother?
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They are focused on quantity not on quality. It's often sloppy.

NID. Medvedeva on the ice = they just turn a blind eye. They are spoiling her with cosmic results and that's the result. For me she's stagnating / regressing. She's just so much ahead in scores usually that those little details do not warrant such an attention as before. With more reasonable scoring we would likely see more pleasant skating and more interesting competitions. At least I have to say that Anna Karenina LP is better than 9/11 LP or her original LP for this season. The program itself does not make me cringe and it's watchable.
 
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Other than some counters before and turns after a jump and not having a footwork sequence that lasts over a minute, Kwan’s Tosca is pretty much a IJS program.
 
giselle23 said:
Michelle deserved extra points for that performance, IMO, right after there was that streaker on the ice. Also, there is no longer a CH score. It is composition. I thought this program had good composition--the way it built towards the end and the explosive footwork sequence. She had a mistake here--a popped jump--but she skated it clean at Nationals. No difficult transitions, it's true, but the rest is very good and the Nationals version is often mentioned as one of Michelle's best and a fan all-time favorite.
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The name of the score was changed just to "composition" but the criteria remained almost exactly the same (I can't remember for sure whether there were any changes at all).
 
JJS5056 said:
What about Sasha Cohen and Kostner pre-2011? In Sasha's case, were her SS not inferior to her IN or did she improve on them enough after SLC?
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I think she improved SS somewhat, but not up to level of her PE or IN on a good day. I could certainly imagine 7s for the former and 9s for the latter being appropriate for a performance like her Torino SP.


I wonder if any judge actually thinks through each component at this point. I think they more likely think 'CK, if clean, is a 9" and for a clean skate, gives 9s +/- .25 and -.5 for TR, while maybe dropping a point for a bomb of a skate. I can't see how else one would end up with the scores we see, all nicely clustered.
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I don't know how they think through components. Thought processes must vary between judges. We'd have to ask them individually how they do it.

When I watch on video and score along for fun, in most events there are a couple of skaters I'll give more than 1.0 difference between highest and lowest component. Very rarely more than 2.0. It's not that I don't have an open mind toward the possibility, but I very rarely see skaters who deserve it IMO. I started this thread to try generate examples.

I don't know whether watching live would make the gaps between strongest and lowest PCS areas look smaller or larger.


I do think that watching a lot of low-level skating live at my local rink or nearby competitions makes average elite skating look better in comparison in all areas, which is why most TV-worthy skaters are earning scores in the 7s and 8s even for their weaker components.


In which case, just drop SS and TR already so that the true artistic components can be accurately assessed.
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Absolutely not, IMO. I consider SS to be the single most important set of abilities to be assessed in a figure skating competition, more than jumps or spins etc., more than artistry.


I'd be happy to find a way to assess SS and TR separately from the artistic components so that ability in one area doesn't influence the scoring of the other area. But to abdicate on scoring the skating in a skating competition would defeat the whole point.


Then there's the whole question of what "accurately" would mean in the context of skating assessment, but that's for a different post.


RFOS said:
The name of the score was changed just to "composition" but the criteria remained almost exactly the same (I can't remember for sure whether there were any changes at all).
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Several of the Choreography bullet points no longer appear in the Composition.

Old:

Purpose

Proportion

Unity -- purposeful threading of all movements

Utilization of Personal and Public Space

Pattern and Ice Coverage

Phrasing and Form

Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design

Shared Responsibility of Purpose (Pair Skating, Ice Dancing, and Synchronized)



New:

Purpose

Pattern/Ice coverage

Multidimensional use of space and design of movements

Phrase and form

Originality of the composition





The "purposeful threading" might be considered to be covered by the "Continuity of movements from one element to another" that took the place of "Intricacy" in the Transitions component
 
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