U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[overedge]

I agree with @jiejie that the problems with US pairs partially lies with the boring choreography and lame music choices many of them have. IMO Camp Dalilah is one of the main offenders here - enough already with the prince/princess, manly man/girly girl love stories.

I do think that technical skills are part of the problem too, but if those are not as strong as the rest of the international pairs, then having interesting choreography and music becomes even more important.

 

[NadineWhite]

I read about this (have yet to watch any of the disciplines though). And to be frankfully honest, if I were a senior pair team not in the top 5, I would seriously evaluate whether or not to compete next year, especially if money is an issue, but if it isn't and one just loves to skate, then go for it!

 

[becca]

Not referring specifically to D&F. USA has more to send for a second spot. Germany doesnt.

The other teams at Nationals could not beat a team who can't make the free at Worlds. This year we don't. As for the Germans perhaps they will improve or a new team will develop.

I see the point of in a field of 20 to give a country who made the podium a shot at another berth for development. I don't see the point for Team 10 in a field of 20.

 

[aftershocks]

The other teams at Nationals could not beat a team who can't make the free at Worlds.

That's debatable since D/F were beat in the sp by one team, and should likely have been beat by another team who skated cleanly in the sp. The fps were messy for all. Marissa/Merv had the best style and speed, but for them it's about solving their different jump tech issues and ratcheting up jump difficulty and consistency. D/F's win was like a gift since they did not skate clean at Nationals. As I said earlier, I think D/F were actually very prepared for Worlds, even perhaps over-prepared and too pumped up. Haven landed her sbs jump, perhaps slightly short and Brandon simply had too much adrenalin going which caused his fall on his sbs jump. And his adrenalin also had him throwing Haven way too hard on the throw, so she had no chance to manage gaining any kind of control in the air -- forget about landing it.

In any case, the 16 cut-off was dire going in, and it was discussed way before Worlds in the pairs thread in Trash Can. ISU simply doesn't seem to care so much about pairs or something. If it's about scheduling and time, why not get rid of the showy intros prior to warmups? I think the intros are nice, but Worlds is not Stars On Ice. They have to find more creative ways of cutting down on time instead of dumping on pairs skaters. How could they even think it was fair to any of the skaters to keep the cut at 16 with the enormous depth, and the fact that a number of very good young junior pairs were moving up to seniors this year.

 

[azcalder]

Unfortunately it's not just Pairs. Dance goes from 32 to 20 and the same can be said about their depth in the senior and junior ranks. Both disciplines need to be upgraded.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Just two years ago, there were 19 Pairs at Worlds. Last year there were only 22. Those were not draconian cuts and less than or similar to the percentage of cuts in singles.

Perhaps they will re-assess from the results at these Worlds, both in the number of participants and the 15+ point rise in the cut-off score over just two seasons. Or perhaps they will wait to see if this is a trend, or if this is a blip.

 

[OrioleBeagle]

Olympic Team Competition- If our one pair team has an injury at the Olympics we will have no chance at a team medal! Who are the people at USFS who chose this world team?

 

[DimaToe]

Olympic Team Competition- If our one pair team has an injury at the Olympics we will have no chance at a team medal! Who are the people at USFS who chose this world team?

What other realistic options did USFS have? Nationals was a giant mess of a competition that D/F happened to win. You could make a case for C/T, but they're also crazy inconsistent and it's not like their TES is high to begin with. C/L were beaten by D/F at nationals and 4CC. Plus the silver at Skate America plus the national title made D/F the better choice on paper.

I mean the Knierims could've not recovered in time and the U.S could've been stuck having to qualify a spot at Neblehorn. So the situation could be worse.

 

[jiejie]

Olympic Team Competition- If our one pair team has an injury at the Olympics we will have no chance at a team medal! Who are the people at USFS who chose this world team?

USFS really made the only logical decision it could when selected SK/K and D/F for the team. There wasn't anybody else that would have been more reliable. I suspect that the USFS might send the 1st alternate to Pyeongchang "just in case" since IIRC they can substitute up to 1 hr before the first draw. This would be an appropriate backup in case a disabling injury to the official pair happens in the pre-event practices. But I think you are correct, that if an injury to the main pair happens once the competition has started, there's no Plan B that can be invoked.

And this is where I dislike the Team Event structure. If there is only one participant qualified in a discipline for a country, that participant has to do four programs (2 SP + 2 FS) in a short period of time. With the Team Event first, it's entirely possible somebody could injure themselves in that event and have to skate injured (or withdraw) from their individual event. But we've been over all this before in various discussions...with no practical resolution in sight (other than scrapping the Team Event).

 

[Spiralgraph]

For all their injuries, Alexa and Chris skated much better at this world Championships than they did at 2016 worlds, when their long program was a mess. Yet they dropped one place in the rankings. Skating is unpredictable and unfair, but I hope all American pairs strive for next season. With all the top American teams suffering injuries in the past few years, there's no guarantee that any pair, the Knierems or Kayne/O'Shea, or Denney/Frazier, and all down the roster, will be healthy for 2018.

 

[LilJen]

I'm trying to figure out (someone? anyone? help me?) have there been any US Pairs on the Senior Level that paired up as young ones (say, younger than 10 or 11) stayed together until they were Seniors and were NOT related and whose names were not Tai and Randy?

I'm wondering about McLaughlin and Brubaker, since they skated together as Juniors, but I'm not sure when they paired up.

Marissa and Simon were together for a good 8 years, if I remember right. They teamed up in 2006, when she was 16 and he was 19. I guess that's not preteen, but it's about as close as it gets, other than Haven and Brandon.

The thing about pairs is:

Quality training in pair skills at prejuvenile or juvenile or even intermediate level will help the skaters who have it in their future pair careers, but there is no guarantee that a good juvenile pair skater will ever be able to be a junior/senior level pair skater for several reasons,* and even less that they will be able to stay with the same partner at higher levels.

*Appropriate body type for pairs
*Appropriate temperament to master difficult pair skills (trust, fearlessness, reliability, etc.)
*Physical ability to master difficult pair moves
*Physical ability to master difficult solo jumps (2A and above)

To be successful at an elite level, pairs also need to have really strong program components -- especially Skating Skills -- in addition to the ability perform the tricks.

Sometimes the most successful pair skaters don't begin pair skating until novice or even senior level. When it becomes clear that they do have an appropriate body type and temperament and already have the physical skills, especially jumps and basic skating, as singles skaters.

And then it takes time for teams to develop unison in everything they do, in addition to the tricks.

Encouraging young/lower level skaters to try pairs can help, but what will help even more is finding ways to encourage strong singles skaters to team up at middle levels or above and to encourage well-matched teams to stay together.

Given that most of the training is going to be paid for by the skaters' families in any case -- not to mention relocation costs for one or both partners plus a parent for minors -- what could USFS do to offer that encouragement?

Partner tryout camps? Pair skill development camps for existing and potential teams and their coaches? Pair-focused competitions throughout the spring and summer? International assignments for as many eligible teams as possible? Limited scholarships as rewards for past performance contingent on competing together the following year?

ALL of this. In addition to having the right skills, temperament, talent, ability, and body type, there are also parents involved (who could range from absolutely wonderfully supportive and flexible to complete diva-tude, unsupportive, meddling, and difficult), money, goals/dreams (one dreams of going to the Olympics, the other is just in it for fun), and the huge psychological/social changes that happen for pretty much everyone between ages 10 and 20 (how many teens have 'just wanted a normal life' and quit or cut back on skating?). . . it's pretty amazing some teams stay together as long as they do. BUT. . . the USFS *does* need to do more, money-wise, encouragement-wise, to encourage pairs skating.

 

[becca]

USFS really made the only logical decision it could when selected SK/K and D/F for the team. There wasn't anybody else that would have been more reliable. I suspect that the USFS might send the 1st alternate to Pyeongchang "just in case" since IIRC they can substitute up to 1 hr before the first draw. This would be an appropriate backup in case a disabling injury to the official pair happens in the pre-event practices. But I think you are correct, that if an injury to the main pair happens once the competition has started, there's no Plan B that can be invoked.

And this is where I dislike the Team Event structure. If there is only one participant qualified in a discipline for a country, that participant has to do four programs (2 SP + 2 FS) in a short period of time. With the Team Event first, it's entirely possible somebody could injure themselves in that event and have to skate injured (or withdraw) from their individual event. But we've been over all this before in various discussions...with no practical resolution in sight (other than scrapping the Team Event).

Um. Didn't the USA only use one pair team last time???

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

For all their injuries, Alexa and Chris skated much better at this world Championships than they did at 2016 worlds,

Im glad you noticed that too. They scored higher here than last year! I just wish Chris would train a 3 salchow for 2 hours every day including weekends.

As far as world placements.. Marchei & Hotarek stepped up their game even without the SBS 3 lutzes.

 

[jiejie]

Um. Didn't the USA only use one pair team last time???

Yes but the point was, they had the CHOICE because they qualified a second pair, plus the pair they used (C/S) was healthy at the time and clearly the stronger and more internationally experienced compared to Z/B. Part of the Team Event is strategy on the two allowable SP-FS switches, and the US elected to use theirs for men and ladies disciplines.

 

[becca]

Yes but the point was, they had the CHOICE because they qualified a second pair, plus the pair they used (C/S) was healthy at the time and clearly the stronger and more internationally experienced compared to Z/B. Part of the Team Event is strategy on the two allowable SP-FS switches, and the US elected to use theirs for men and ladies disciplines.

But this year per the rules they did not qualify two pairs. it would not be right to take a spot from let's say from one of the smaller countries. My understanding is if D/F had made the free we would have two spots.

Not to mention I don't see Team USA realistically using any team but S/K.

So if I were the ISU I would say you have to use two pairs then. They will say no.

 

[jiejie]

But this year per the rules they did not qualify two pairs. it would not be right to take a spot from let's say from one of the smaller countries. My understanding is if D/F had made the free we would have two spots.

Not to mention I don't see Team USA realistically using any team but S/K.

So if I were the ISU I would say you have to use two pairs then. They will say no.

Nowhere in my comments on this thread or this forum have I ever stated that the USA should be trying to take a spot away from another country in order to get around the established rules. They earned one spot in pairs and that's that. Nowhere in my comments anywhere have I said that the ISU should require teams to use two pairs for the Team competition.

You seem to be going off on some wild tangent and starting to invent things in your head that you then ascribe to others. Knock it off.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

But this year per the rules they did not qualify two pairs. it would not be right to take a spot from let's say from one of the smaller countries. My understanding is if D/F had made the free we would have two spots.

They would've had to finish higher than the second Italian team in the free skate in order for us to not be victim to the "last in" rule.

 

[skatingguy]

But this year per the rules they did not qualify two pairs. it would not be right to take a spot from let's say from one of the smaller countries. My understanding is if D/F had made the free we would have two spots.

They would've had to finish higher than the second Italian team in the free skate in order for us to not be victim to the "last in" rule.

I'm not sure that we really know how last was determined when it comes to the entries in the pairs event. My assumption was that the entries were determined by going 3 entries first - so China, Russia, Canada, and then starting with the Germans and moving down the top ten looking for teams with 2 entries - so that's Germany, France, Italy, and then the US. So in order for the US to earn two spots the Knierims would have had finish ahead of Marchei/Hotarek. The other way to look at the entries is by points so then it's Germany - 20, Italy - 22, France - 26, and the US with 28. If that was how last was determined than making the free skate may not have been enough because if Denney/Fraser finished 16th the US total would be equal with France, so under this scenario Denney/Fraser would have had to have been at least 15th. Truth is we may never know exactly how last was determined because in both scenarios I laid out the US was last, unless this happens again in four years.

 

[Chemistry66]

I'm not sure that we really know how last was determined when it comes to the entries in the pairs event. My assumption was that the entries were determined by going 3 entries first - so China, Russia, Canada, and then starting with the Germans and moving down the top ten looking for teams with 2 entries - so that's Germany, France, Italy, and then the US. So in order for the US to earn two spots the Knierims would have had finish ahead of Marchei/Hotarek. The other way to look at the entries is by points so then it's Germany - 20, Italy - 22, France - 26, and the US with 28. If that was how last was determined than making the free skate may not have been enough because if Denney/Fraser finished 16th the US total would be equal with France, so under this scenario Denney/Fraser would have had to have been at least 15th. Truth is we may never know exactly how last was determined because in both scenarios I laid out the US was last, unless this happens again in four years.

The first method (going down the list in order of countries) seems to make the most sense to me since they use that method for "Country placements" to determine JGP spots.

 

[leigh466]

Unfortunately it's not just Pairs. Dance goes from 32 to 20 and the same can be said about their depth in the senior and junior ranks. Both disciplines need to be upgraded.

YES! Who do we write to? 16 and 20 to the FS/FD are absurd! Why not 24 for all disciplines?

 

[Chemistry66]

YES! Who do we write to? 16 and 20 to the FS/FD are absurd! Why not 24 for all disciplines?

Not 24 for all disciplines because there's commonly less entries in Pairs and Dance. Going back to 2012 Worlds, this is the first year where there's even been over 24 total Pairs entries. It's usually closer to the high teens or low 20s. They probably wouldn't add more to Pairs until they're sure this isn't just a one-off occasion for this many entries to qualify and be sent.

Also, the pattern is the same for all disciplines. 4 Warmup Groups worth of entries make the FD. Singles events can have 6 entries per warmup, so that makes 24 Men and 24 Ladies. Ice Dance has 5 entries per warmup, thus 20 entries to the FD. Pairs can only have 4 entries per warmup, so only 16 per FS.

 

[leigh466]

Not 24 for all disciplines because there's commonly less entries in Pairs and Dance. Going back to 2012 Worlds, this is the first year where there's even been over 24 total Pairs entries. It's usually closer to the high teens or low 20s. They probably wouldn't add more to Pairs until they're sure this isn't just a one-off occasion for this many entries to qualify and be sent.

Also, the pattern is the same for all disciplines. 4 Warmup Groups worth of entries make the FD. Singles events can have 6 entries per warmup, so that makes 24 Men and 24 Ladies. Ice Dance has 5 entries per warmup, thus 20 entries to the FD. Pairs can only have 4 entries per warmup, so only 16 per FS.

Thanks for the explanation! Even if there are only 24 entrants to qualify and be sent, I see no harm in having them all qualify to the free skate. As someone said, the investments in costumes, travel, lodging, etc. have all been made. Especially for the Olympics! Also, 4 warmup groups to qualify seems like a nice little heuristic, but that's all. It does not seem like an extra warmup group (or two) is that big a deal even though I do get it that the competition is longer, maybe costs rise for arena rental? Not sure. I just do not see the point of stifling the development of the sport for arbitrary rules. As someone pointed out, in the US now, some couples might decide to call it a day with no realistic shot at making their Olympic dream come true next year. More spots would also help the development of smaller countries/federations, it seems to me anyway.

 

[LKR]

It just seems bizarre that the ISU would differentiate the 2 spots countries solely based on each nation's top finisher. Say you have a result of James/Cipres in 9th, Scimeca/Knierim 10th, and the Italian teams 11th and 12th. Then Italy would be knocked down to one spot, even though France and U.S. couldn't qualify their second teams to the free.

Jackie Wong's post seemed to indicate (but certainly not confirm) that with the combined placements of Germany with 20, Italy 22, France 26, and U.S. 28, this is how U.S. came short. Either way the U.S. gets one spot, but if you shuffle around the standings you have one method shafting U.S. and another shafting Italy.

It also begs the question what tiebreaker would've been used in the event that Denney/Frazier had qualified and finished 16th, thus getting the U.S. 26 and tying with France. I assume in this circumstance, however, that the country with the highest placing team (France) would be the tiebreaker. But leave it to all of us to speculate before the ISU communicates anything.

 

[madm]

Thanks for the explanation! Even if there are only 24 entrants to qualify and be sent, I see no harm in having them all qualify to the free skate. As someone said, the investments in costumes, travel, lodging, etc. have all been made. Especially for the Olympics! Also, 4 warmup groups to qualify seems like a nice little heuristic, but that's all. It does not seem like an extra warmup group (or two) is that big a deal even though I do get it that the competition is longer, maybe costs rise for arena rental? Not sure. I just do not see the point of stifling the development of the sport for arbitrary rules. As someone pointed out, in the US now, some couples might decide to call it a day with no realistic shot at making their Olympic dream come true next year. More spots would also help the development of smaller countries/federations, it seems to me anyway.

It's not just costs that would rise if the pair and dance groups were bigger. There would be more time required to have extra groups compete and extra ice makes, and thus the entire competition would be longer. More practice sessions would also be required. This type of change could lead to needing to lengthen the entire competition by a half or whole day. Although I agree with the need to enlarge the groups, it's not just a simple change.

 

[HeatherC]

FYI, Tarah and Danny have a new blog post up about their struggles, her injury, and their music & choreographer decisions for next season. They seem to be the forgotten pair after her concussion took them out of US Nats but I really like their choices (especially for choreographer choices!) and I think they'll come back fighting next season. They're such wonderful people and I'm rooting really hard for them.

Link: http://figureskatersonline.com/kayne-oshea/moving-forward/

Also, I'm helping moderate a fan question Q&A online interview with Tarah & Danny for their site and I would love to get some questions from you guys. If you think of something that you'd like to ask them, please post it in this thread or send it to me via PM so I can add it to the question queue. Thanks so much guys!

 

[wickedwitch]

FYI, Tarah and Danny have a new blog post up about their struggles, her injury, and their music & choreographer decisions for next season. They seem to be the forgotten pair after her concussion took them out of US Nats but I really like their choices (especially for choreographer choices!) and I think they'll come back fighting next season. They're such wonderful people and I'm rooting really hard for them.

Link: http://figureskatersonline.com/kayne-oshea/moving-forward/

Also, I'm helping moderate a fan question Q&A online interview with Tarah & Danny for their site and I would love to get some questions from you guys. If you think of something that you'd like to ask them, please post it in this thread or send it to me via PM so I can add it to the question queue. Thanks so much guys!

I'm so disappointed that they aren't keeping their long program.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

even though France and U.S. couldn't qualify their second teams to the free.

You're confusing me here. D&F couldnt qualify this year.

USA also has C&T, C&L, K&O and some others who could qualify for the Olys Free skate.

Just because D&F skated at 2017 worlds doesnt mean they are forced to be the second ranked USA skaters next year. The ballgame starts all over.

Some countries like Germany, France truly dont have any team that realistically would qualify into the free because they dont have many teams.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, not C/T. He won't be able to compete for the Olympics for the U.S. Worlds is a different matter, however.

 

[LKR]

You're confusing me here. D&F couldnt qualify this year.

USA also has C&T, C&L, K&O and some others who could qualify for the Olys Free skate.

Just because D&F skated at 2017 worlds doesnt mean they are forced to be the second ranked USA skaters next year. The ballgame starts all over.

Some countries like Germany, France truly dont have any team that realistically would qualify into the free because they dont have many teams.

Sorry, I didn't word that well: I meant "didn't" qualify to the free, not "couldn't." My point is that if the ISU ranked the countries that earned two spots solely based on each country's top finisher, there could've been a scenario with James/Cipres in 9th, Knierims in 10th, and both Italian teams 11-12th, resulting in the Italians getting only one spot. This would've happened in spite of the second-ranked French and American teams not qualifying to the LP.

 

[Dobre]

I often like Peterson's packaging. (Kayne & O'Shae's current LP excluded). I think Jim tends to do the best he can with the teams he has. They almost always suffer in technique relative to other teams at Nationals, but they often do the job it takes to make the team. I would like to see him have more technical help.

Dalilah has teams with the big elements but such nothing choreography. Almost always undermining the teams' ability to leave an impact on the audience. (I cannot and will not ever forgive her for giving Turandot to Caydee Denney). Why can her top teams not get help with the packaging? You would think with all the expertise at the Broadmoor, there would be someone there. But if there isn't, then by golly look elsewhere. The top dance teams are doing this. Why aren't the pairs? It won't fix Chris's jumps, but SK&K are certainly capable of delivering gorgeous programs if they get them.

Vincent & Nathan (and Jason) have all found a way this season to travel in order to get the best of both worlds: the technique & the choreography. And it's working. We're really seeing the benefits from these young men working with more than one expert.


Note: It took more that Shpilband & Zoueva to build U.S. ice dance. Many Russian dance coaches--and now their disciples--have been working with the young athletes. You see the influence all the way down in the juvenile ranks. Madison Hubbell & Evan Bates, for example, are both from Nechaeva & Chesnichenko.