What did Weaver & Poje lack

[beebee]

I know she is American skating for Canada and then she started getting involved with her coach (for me this became a major turn off...Morosov).

Kaitlyn has Canadian citizenship. And you have a lot of nerve to defame her. How dare you make a false statement about her being involved with Morosov. I really wanted to ignore you, but your remarks are too despicable for me to do that.

 

[Alilou]

I'm still really disappointed for them that they didn't win worlds in 2014 with their brilliant Maria de Buenos Aires FD. They lost that title to Cap/Lanotte by .02 of a point! It still breaks my heart. How different things would have been for them if they'd won that title.

 

[Alilou]

I know she is American skating for Canada and then she started getting involved with her coach (for me this became a major turn off...Morosov). So with this team there wasnt much that kept me tuned in or wanting to know more.

Kaitlin has NEVER been involved with Morosov. Where TF did you get that from? Such a stupid thing to repeat. Her body language here will tell you everything:
at 8.01

Kaitlyn Weaver, Andrew Poje's free dance at 2016 Cup of China | CBC Sports

Canadian ice dancers Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje perform their long program, to "Concierto de Aranjuez" by Joaquín Rodrigo, at the ISU Grand Prix of Figur...

www.youtube.com

 

[manhn]

Interesting that WeaverPoje are seen as lacking something, even though their career accolades are similar to most teams like the Shibs, CapLanotte, etc. Does an Olympic medal make that big a difference? Would fans prefer that W&P had won in 2014 but not medaled in their other years?

It’s not like they were favoured to win in 2014. They were “lucky” D&W and V&M didn’t compete (although expected) and P&B and I&K made big errors (well, expected too).

They are a wonderful team but not all time greats. I don’t think that’s a problem.

 

[sap5]

I think the criticism of Weaver/Poje more comes from the fact that they sat in the top 5 for almost a decade and consistently acted as a threat to a tonne of teams.

I think the criticism of W/P comes from the fact that the consistently sat in the top 5 but never made it to the top. It’s a valid discussion; what’s the thing that will bring you to the top when you otherwise have everything?

 

[Emilia12]

I think the criticism of W/P comes from the fact that the consistently sat in the top 5 but never made it to the top. It’s a valid discussion; what’s the thing that will bring you to the top when you otherwise have everything?

Why Weaver Poje? Why not the Shibutanis, Chock/Bates, Bobrova/Soloviev etc? They all had about the same level of success. It’s not a general “what it takes to make it to the top as ice dance team” thread, its a “let’s hate on Weaver and Poje״ thread
It’s not like they are the first great top ice dance team who never won the world title, and they are surely not the last ones

 

[Marta24]

Well, I have always been a big Weaver/Poje fan and I`m overall happy with what they have achieved. Maybe they weren`t as naturally talented as other teams, but they made up for it with their determination and work ethic. In the end it`s not always about the Gold, but about to bring emotions to their skating and that`s what they did for me. I admit that I would have loved to see them win Worlds, but it just wasn`t meant to be. The timing never was quiet right for them.

 

[starrynight]

Why Weaver Poje? Why not the Shibutanis, Chock/Bates, Bobrova/Soloviev etc? They all had about the same level of success

I need to link you to my post about uber Matrixes lol. W/P found themselves as collateral to fan wars. Basically, they rubbed a lot of noses the wrong way after V/M retired for the first time and W/P won a couple of Grand Prix Final titles, won 2 world medals and had success as Canadian number 1 for a couple of years in V/M's absence. V/M ubers wanted W/P crushed for that insolence. And to a much lesser extent, W/P also annoyed a lot of P/C fans back in the early part of last quad when they were a threat to them. So they were caught in a hard place.

So there's that. I don't think that any of Shibutanis or Chock/Bates etc ever got themselves sandwiched in an uber matrix like that.

Ice dance is also a lot like Russian singles, where Tutberidze's group is idolised no matter what and outsiders negatively viewed out of allegiances to the coaches. W/P did not join the main training centre and became outsiders and didn't have the protections offered by being with everyone else. For example, ice dancers who train with popular coaches can escape more criticism, because people don't want to criticise the work of the coach who also coaches their own favourite skater. It's a bit of a herd protection thing.

 

[Mad for Skating]

As a WeaPo fan, I’ve gotta say a thread titled “what did Weaver/Poje lack?” isn’t the first thing I wanted to see this morning.

Also, let’s hear @AngieNikodinovLove’s side of the story before we persecute them; it might be just a misunderstanding. In this gossipy skating community, it can be hard to tell fact from fiction.

 

[starrynight]

As a WeaPo fan, I’ve gotta say a thread titled “what did Weaver/Poje lack?” isn’t the first thing I wanted to see this morning.

It's obviously someone just trolling on here. But as much as I would like to just ignore, I kind of don't want to hand this thread over to become a punching bag. But maybe letting it die is the best decision.

 

[Mad for Skating]

It's obviously someone just trolling on here. But as much as I would like to just ignore, I kind of don't want to hand this thread over to become a punching bag. But maybe letting it die is the best decision.

The haters will take a few rounds, but they’ll get bored after a while.
I’m not offended if people want to talk objectively about their twizzles or something. But a lot of this just feels like an excuse to hate them.

 

[tony]

For me, his twizzles always were part of the issue but even when they were nearly winning Worlds, they were still pretty rough. I think it's a few things that do come down to bad luck. The scoring at 2014 Worlds- any of them could've won and we all know how close they were when the door was open. 2015 saw the emergence of P&C and there was no looking back with that team... until V&M came back in 2017. And at that point, you have another, already more-successful Canadian team to push matched with other teams really making great waves. Remember, some people thought Gilles & Poirier were even going to take over as #2 in Canada at one point. I also am not sure how great going to Morozov was. He lost that special touch that made programs really stand out a long time ago IMO, even if he wasn't always the one directly responsible for the choreography.

Personally, I felt most of W&P's programs were either really hit or miss. To be honest, I completely understand why some people feel that her emoting was inauthentic. I was one of the few that liked their FD this previous season and believed in the the raw emotion with the story behind it but it seems plenty of people thought it was over the top. Actually, the majority of my favorites from them were in that style (2013, 2016 FD).

 

[bracketcounterrocker]

Since a couple of people have mentioned Weaver/Poje's difficulty in beating Chock/Bates, I figured I'd look it up. Unless I missed an event or two, Weaver/Poje and Chock/Bates went head-to-head 25 times throughout their careers. Of those 25 times, Weaver/Poje came out on top 17 times compared to Chock/Bates 8 times. This touches on what I think is happening where Weaver/Poje's career is often remembered as being less successful than it was. Let's not forget they won the GPF twice and they are the only team aside from V/M to have beaten P/C since Europeans 2015 (at WTT 2015).

 

[triple_toe]

She had stiff knees and ankles and was always playing catch up to him, which made them look mismatched. Overall, she often looked like she was running after him and he was disconnected and disaffected. Both their acting and the skating styles exaggerated their lack of cohesion as a team.

They never moved "as one" like P/C or the Shibs at their best and they lacked the personality and choreographic vision on the ice to pull off genuine quirk, exemplified by teams like Piper and Paul or Pechalat and Bourzat. They rarely had the back and forth tension of V/M, which was a shame because this was their best avenue, one that emphasized their differences. Rather than catering to either Andrew or Kaitlyn's strengths-- which often led to the other partner failing to match up-- they were at their most exciting when they showcased the drama of two different characters playing against each other (see Je Suis Malade and Santa Maria). For whatever reason, they didn't really go there enough.

Overall, they had poor material-- apart from a handful of programs here and there-- insofar as they didn't have the emotional resonance or potential to captivate the audience as those of their direct competitors. Their programs were usually good, but hardly ever exceptional. Their lifts were good, but recycled, and their twizzles were slow and subpar, something that stood out when they were fighting for podium spots with teams like the Shibs and P/C.

Essentially, they were a good, but not great team. Their technical deficiencies were all too rarely masked by artistic prowess (which they had the potential for, as evidenced by their best work) and their decent, but not exceptional, artistry wasn't elevated by fantastic technical abilities like crazy lifts, mind blowing twizzles, or phenomenal edge work. They were always in the mix but were never going to be leading the field.

 

[clairecloutier]

Let's take this thread in a more positive direction and look at what Weaver/Poje did achieve in their career, which lasted for an impressive 13 years at the senior level:

-- 3 World medals
-- Top 5 at Worlds for 9 straight years
(how many other teams can claim that in the IJS era?)
-- 2 4CCs titles
-- 2 Grand Prix Final titles
-- Medaled on the Grand Prix circuit for 9 straight years
-- A total of 18 Grand Prix medals overall

By any standard, theirs was a remarkable and incredibly successful career. I just think it's worthwhile to remember what they did achieve.

They had the misfortune to compete against three teams who, in terms of results, rank among the greatest of all time: Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, and Davis/White. Their international senior career started in the same year as D/W and V/M (2006-7) (although V/M had 1 senior competition the year previous).

What was the difference between W/P and those three all-time great teams? The basic skating skills and partnering skills, I guess, just weren't quite as strong. And twizzles were definitely a weakness for W/P. Still, W/P were very very good, if not at the all-time great level.

For me personally, I went up and down with W/P over the years, liking some programs more, some less, finding them very well-trained and "on" some years/competitions, other years less so, but always basically enjoying them as a team. I enjoyed them very much last season. I really liked and appreciated both programs a lot and I felt like their skating looked refreshed and more emotional and deeper.

Another thing that I think is interesting and noteworthy about Weaver/Poje is their very loyal and large fan base. Everybody knows about the V/M fan base, but in my experience the W/P fan base is just as committed and, if not as large as V/M's, still impressive in size. Skaters don't inspire such love and devotion from a large group of fans if there isn't something very memorable about their skating. While some here have complained about lack of chemistry between W/P, their fans saw great chemistry and were drawn in by that.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Let's take this thread in a more positive direction and look at what Weaver/Poje did achieve in their career, which lasted for an impressive 13 years at the senior level:

-- 3 World medals
-- Top 5 at Worlds for 9 straight years
(how many other teams can claim that in the IJS era?)
-- 2 4CCs titles
-- 2 Grand Prix Final titles
-- Medaled on the Grand Prix circuit for 9 straight years
-- A total of 18 Grand Prix medals overall

By any standard, theirs was a remarkable and incredibly successful career. I just think it's worthwhile to remember what they did achieve.

They had the misfortune to compete against three teams who, in terms of results, rank among the greatest of all time: Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, and Davis/White. Their international senior career started in the same year as D/W and V/M (2006-7) (although V/M had 1 senior competition the year previous).

What was the difference between W/P and those three all-time great teams? The basic skating skills and partnering skills, I guess, just weren't quite as strong. And twizzles were definitely a weakness for W/P. Still, W/P were very very good, if not at the all-time great level.

For me personally, I went up and down with W/P over the years, liking some programs more, some less, finding them very well-trained and "on" some years/competitions, other years less so, but always basically enjoying them as a team. I enjoyed them very much last season. I really liked and appreciated both programs a lot and I felt like their skating looked refreshed and more emotional and deeper.

Another thing that I think is interesting and noteworthy about Weaver/Poje is their very loyal and large fan base. Everybody knows about the V/M fan base, but in my experience the W/P fan base is just as committed and, if not as large as V/M's, still impressive in size. Skaters don't inspire such love and devotion from a large group of fans if there isn't something very memorable about their skating. While some here have complained about lack of chemistry between W/P, their fans saw great chemistry and were drawn in by that.

Thank you @clairecloutier for a much-needed dose of positivity here. I personally enjoyed most of their programs. They weren’t technically flawless, but I never found anything lacking in the expression. I’ll personally admit that I even preferred some of their programs to both Virtue/Moir and Papadakis/Cizeron’s, although I know the other two teams are technically stronger. Weaver/Poje seemed to skate because they loved it and were invested in the creative process. Sometimes a skater is not as technically proficient as the best skater in the world, but they’re enjoyable. For example, Marin Honda is one of my favorite ladies’ skaters, and I enjoy her performances for what they are. I don’t fault her for not landing quads like Eteri’s new girls. Part of the art of skating is appreciating skaters of all levels for what they bring to the table, both artistically and technically.

In short, I don’t think it’s fair to ask why Weaver/Poje never reached the Olympic gold level. Not every team will win an Olympic gold medal; that’s why there’s only one every four years. Weaver/Poje were a great talented team, but unfortunately it just didn’t happen for them. It doesn’t matter to me. I just enjoy them for what they do on the ice and let the judges decide the rest.

 

[Coco]

A) his twizzles
B) political support, sustained period as their country's clear #1 team

For myself, I could watch them all day. They were beautiful skaters.

 

[nylynnr]

Luck. That's about it.

Agreed, plus a related issue: failure to maximize on momentum.

 

[kwanfan1818]

To be specific, his weaker-side twizzles.

Would fans prefer that W&P had won in 2014 but not medaled in their other years?

I would have: that program was so brilliant and so difficult. I thought I understood how much from video, but then was it in person .

I don't think that any of Shibutanis or Chock/Bates etc ever got themselves sandwiched in an uber matrix like that.

After the Shibs win bronze at 2011 Worlds, a lot of fans of other teams wanted blood because they were "unworthy," and reveled in their struggles. Unlike Chait/Sakhnovski, who were also vilified and who never recovered from their World bronze, the Shibs have a set OBMs to hang on their walls, even if it took a while for redemption, or five seasons to be back on the World podium.

 

[manhn]

I refuse to use the Shibs’ team medal against W&P when they should have two.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I refuse to use the Shibs’ team medal against W&P when they should have two.

The Shibs have individual OBM's. (ETA: And it wasn't meant to be against W/P: I was talking about the Shib haterz because of their 2011 bronze.)

But that W/P were left off both team events, because V/M wanted to skate both programs and were given that choice. (Similarly when D/W did the same in 2014; as the strongest discipline, had D/W chosen to do one, Chock/Bates would have a team medal.)

 

[NAOTMAA]

After the Shibs win bronze at 2011 Worlds, a lot of fans of other teams wanted blood because they were "unworthy," and reveled in their struggles. Unlike Chait/Sakhnovski, who were also vilified and who never recovered from their World bronze, the Shibs have a set OBMs to hang on their walls, even if it took a while for redemption, or five seasons to be back on the World podium.

Sorry for being off topic but, without knowing all the behind the scenes shit at the time, I had never seen a collapse as hard, and sudden, as the one C/S had in any discipline. To winning a world medal to being totally out of it in a season for no apparent reason. Normally when a skater drops in the rankings it's got some reasonable explanation that can plainly be seen even from a common viewer who doesn't think backstage politics. But with C/S they actually improved after winning that bronze and the marks and ranking just kept going down. At least the Shibs when struggling had a heartbeat, C/S were pretty much given a funeral.

It's got to really hurt to have a petition circulated against you and even worse to know your fellow competitors signed it. Has that ever happened? I don't even think Tonya Harding can say that

 

[muffinplus]

Last season's RD was top 3 material and really well performed at Worlds... should have scored a fair bit better than Stepanova/Bukin and Hubbell/Donohue IMO But yeah their twizzles were the only thing not top notch in it, other than that it was really great

 

[puglover]

I have never seen such a beautiful, heart-warming reaction as what I saw, and heard, at the Nationals in Vancouver right before the last Olympics. Kaitlyn and Andrew had a rough short dance and all in attendance knew they had to be flawless to get that third Olympic spot. For some reason it took awhile for the previous skaters marks to come up and as Kaitlyn and Andrew skated around the crowd totally erupted and did everything they could to show their support and love for them. I know they were very touched. I agree they have a very loyal fanbase and I have never felt I couldn't be a fan of V&M and W&P. They really come alive, at least to me, as show skaters. I thought their RD from last season was dynamite and I really didn't understand why it didn't reflect that in the marks.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Hi y'all

Reading comments on here.

Over the last 2 seasons I thought she was involved with her coach as I had read something about it here on the boards a few seasons ago.

I ALSO did not think it was rumor. I thought it was fact.

So when Ive seen them take the ice the past few seasons I always thought to myself "How can she be involved with him?" I found out now that they aren't and have never been. (I just am not a fan of him).

So, my apologies. I was ill informed.

But the comments... um....me defaming her.... if I say the sky is blue.. I am not defaming the sky lol. All this time I thought it was fact and just repeating a fact.

I wish some posters could just be more adult and grown up instead of going full on drama.

Some people do not have a bad bone in their body (ANL) and not trying to create drama. Just wish some people could realize that before they go full on crazy.

Again, apologies.

 

[Japanfan]

She did not get involved with Morozov as far as I know.

I remember noticing once when she was in the K&C, with Morozov beside her, that she squeezed as far as away from him as she could.

Exactly what I would do if seated next to Morozov, but to be honest, the man disturbs me, and I'd likely just get up and walk away.

ETA: @alilou posted a link above (post 33 in this thread) to Kaitlyn and Morozov in the K&C, and she exhibits similar body language to what I described.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Wait...what?

Lol. My reaction exactly. That’s so not true.

 

[triple_toe]

Thank you @clairecloutier for a much-needed dose of positivity here. I personally enjoyed most of their programs. They weren’t technically flawless, but I never found anything lacking in the expression. I’ll personally admit that I even preferred some of their programs to both Virtue/Moir and Papadakis/Cizeron’s, although I know the other two teams are technically stronger. Weaver/Poje seemed to skate because they loved it and were invested in the creative process. Sometimes a skater is not as technically proficient as the best skater in the world, but they’re enjoyable. For example, Marin Honda is one of my favorite ladies’ skaters, and I enjoy her performances for what they are. I don’t fault her for not landing quads like Eteri’s new girls. Part of the art of skating is appreciating skaters of all levels for what they bring to the table, both artistically and technically.

In short, I don’t think it’s fair to ask why Weaver/Poje never reached the Olympic gold level. Not every team will win an Olympic gold medal; that’s why there’s only one every four years. Weaver/Poje were a great talented team, but unfortunately it just didn’t happen for them. It doesn’t matter to me. I just enjoy them for what they do on the ice and let the judges decide the rest.

No one is saying W/P can't be enjoyed or they don't have their merits. However, given that this thread is specifically dedicated to the question of why they never reached the top of any big podiums, I don't see analysis as a lack of positivity, but simply an opportunity to discuss the topic at hand.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I’ve said this many times, in various threads, Weaver and Poje are in my opinion as important as any ice dance team in and to Canada. It’s true that Andrew is a bit reserved, but Kaitlyn’s energy is exactly what I love, especially live. She’s a fierce competitor and I just love her performance execution. I don’t think they lacked anything at all. All teams have some creative misses. And whatever twizzle deficiency there may have been, I personally think they made up for with their awesome lifts.

I will miss them.

 

[Vash01]

Late comer to this thread.

What Weaver Pope lacked was- Luck

2014 worlds - they were in a position to win the gold but lost to the Italians by 0.1 point (or was it even less?)

They were still among the top teams but with the arrival of P&C they were pushed down internationally. They were fighting for the silver from that point on.

2018 Olympics - V&M returned. W&P were no longer Canada’s number one, and lost all the political power.

The timing was just not on their side.