What did Weaver & Poje lack

[puglover]

I can certainly see reasons why their timing probably hurt them but - maybe - the success of V/M and D/W helped them and other North American teams in less obvious ways. I am not knowledgeable enough to really discuss the judging but it seemed doors were opened that were somewhat closed before. Also, they attracted more skating fans to dance that previously were not that interested in it which, for better or worse, has resulted in more opportunities.

 

[Judy]

Well I always enjoyed them. V&M overshadowed everyone on the Canadian team and let’s face it there was some pretty stiff competition in the world.

 

[Winnipeg]

Luck, I thought they were a great team that always seemed to be under scored or had a bad break.

Never heard about the Morozov but doesn't or didn't have a fling with most female skaters at one point. He has been the topic of numerous scandals.

 

[puglover]

I know it was not everyone's favorite but I have watched "Je Suis Malade" a million times - especially the one from Worlds 2012. It think it is brilliant! I have had people close to me in very toxic relationships that made them sick and I think every movement in that free dance conveys those feelings so well.

 

[GreenGan]

What did they lack ? Success.

The goods were there, the material was there. They had their twizzles, at least once every year at a competition, and I'm sure their training twizzles were perfect.
But V/M were there, and then they didn't get luck, their program didn't merge with the audience/the public the way it should have, they let stress come in..

I don't see any major flaw in their skating. It just wasn't for them. Maybe they thought they deserve better because, let's be honest : they deserved better. But it's not because you deserve thing that victory come. They didn't lack anything. They just missed it.

 

[Judy]

It seems a bit odd to have a thread about what a team who was in the top 5 for nine consecutive worlds and won 3 world medals 'lacks'.

They had a very successful career by most measures. By this measuring stick, what team isn't lacking? On this criteria, maybe only D/W, V/M and P/C I suspect.

I'm just assuming this a thinly veiled excuse to criticise them?

I agree ... I think we are just so used to our favs having to win. I always thought they were a great team. Any news on what their plans are?

 

[AxelAnnie]

I disagree. In any case, skaters who supposedly also have to be artists on ice, can't just be themselves in all programs, often they have to perform and act, as all performing artists do, from actors to singer

I in no way meant that Kaitlyn the person was not authentic. I mean her character portrayal was inauthentic.

Anybody ever heard of Be, Do, Have? Simply put, you can have a program, you can DO the program, or you can BE the program.

IMO Kaitlyn is trying very hard to do the program, and she does a good job. She has expression but it seems forced, and contrived.

Perfect examples of skaters who Be their program.....Satoko's Shindler's List. There is no stop here, smile, go over there, hands over head. You cannot pick her apart from the program. Lu Chen's Butterfly Lovers.

 

[Sylvia]

I always thought they were a great team. Any news on what their plans are?

Their June press release -- before it was known they would participate in CBC's Battle of the Blades (which tuns through the end of October) stated they would "evaluate their future plans and will provide an update on their career later this season" -- is linked in their GSD thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/weaver-and-poje-step-away-from-competition.105714/

BTW, ICYMI, the person/pseud. who started this thread was banned a while ago.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Their June press release -- before it was known they would participate in CBC's Battle of the Blades (which tuns through the end of October) stated they would "evaluate their future plans and will provide an update on their career later this season" -- is linked in their GSD thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/weaver-and-poje-step-away-from-competition.105714/

BTW, ICYMI, the person/pseud. who started this thread was banned a while ago.

ROLF!

 

[IceSlider]

Comparison is such and easy thing, generating opinions (usually uninformed) on the back of it even easier. The hard bit is the doing... from soccer to skating the same hot air arises from people who don't kick a ball nor slide on ice (or used to but can't any more, or who do but don't have the talent, put in the hours or have the passion). Much easier to settle in a comfy chair and pick holes in ability they can only dream of having... lol "bad twizzles" "poor GOE" indeed, let's see yours ... hey ho

 

[IceSlider]

to all:] I think it's perfectly fine to share thoughts about what could have made an excellent team even better.

Why? For what purpose? Is anyone here going to be in thier coaching team? Is anyone here going to be able to coach them to even better performances? Is anyone here skating at the level they've achieved? Is anyone here likely too?

Now the other way around yes, I can see that, I'd take lessons from P&W in a instant if I was ever lucky enough to have that opportunity...

 

[beebee]

Please let this thread die. It was started by a troll. Look at the thread title—it invites negativity.

 

[kwanfan1818]

No one's forcing anyone to read it or participate.

 

[Plusdinfo]

Why? For what purpose? Is anyone here going to be in thier coaching team? Is anyone here going to be able to coach them to even better performances? Is anyone here skating at the level they've achieved? Is anyone here likely too?

Now the other way around yes, I can see that, I'd take lessons from P&W in a instant if I was ever lucky enough to have that opportunity...

To strictly answer your first question, I like to learn things. One very big benefit of this forum is that when people post information and viewpoints, I get to internally affirm my own knowledge, internally refute what's written, change my beliefs in some way, and/or come across ideas (and, yes, sometimes facts) that I was never aware of. I think that precisely because figure skating is a subjective sport with multiple human beings producing the scores for any given program of any performer(s), there are a variety of observations and lines of thinking at play. I cannot claim a fully developed understanding of the sport and, frankly, no one person's thinking or judging is objectively correct/perfect, but I do feel that I can continually expand my knowledge of the sport-and, yes, part of that is reading about skaters as described by FSU observers who may be seeing and feeling things that I do not. Learning and expanding my mind is a great process that I enjoy.

 

[beebee]

No one's forcing anyone to read it or participate.

I'm entitled to my opinion. You don't have to agree with me or do as I say and I don't owe you an explanation.

 

[IceSlider]

To strictly answer your first question, I like to learn things.

Right, so you want lessons too! Join the queue for P&W. In the meantime have a great day!

 

[IloveFS]

What did they lack ? Success.

The goods were there, the material was there. They had their twizzles, at least once every year at a competition, and I'm sure their training twizzles were perfect.
But V/M were there, and then they didn't get luck, their program didn't merge with the audience/the public the way it should have, they let stress come in..

I don't see any major flaw in their skating. It just wasn't for them. Maybe they thought they deserve better because, let's be honest : they deserved better. But it's not because you deserve thing that victory come. They didn't lack anything. They just missed it.

GreenGan: I agree that they deserved much better. It was a highly competitive time in ice dance. They were part of a group of 3-4 teams that were under marked in my opinion. I much prefer them to Chock and Bates and never understood why they scored lower than Chock and Bates. I also thought that the Shib Sibs and Cappellini and Lanotte were significantly underscored. Not only was their Je Suis Malade program outstanding but so was there Four Seasons program. Their short/rhythm dances were always amongst the most interesting and innovative of the entire field. I hope they are not saying goodbye to competitive skating!

 

[overedge]

Comparison is such and easy thing, generating opinions (usually uninformed) on the back of it even easier. The hard bit is the doing... from soccer to skating the same hot air arises from people who don't kick a ball nor slide on ice (or used to but can't any more, or who do but don't have the talent, put in the hours or have the passion). Much easier to settle in a comfy chair and pick holes in ability they can only dream of having... lol "bad twizzles" "poor GOE" indeed, let's see yours

Not being able to do something yourself doesn't mean that you can't recognize good (or bad) technique when someone else does it.

 

[IceSlider]

Not being able to do something yourself doesn't mean that you can't recognize good (or bad) technique when someone else does it.

Agreed, up to a point that is true. But as I said comparison is such an easy thing, the hard bit is the doing. Whilst it's possible to recognise good or bad technique for some people who don't skate for most that's not possible.

There's a big difference between what one likes (or doesn't), what pleases (or doesn't), which is fair comment, and trying to pass that off as informed discussion of technique.

TBH if you're not an ISU Technical specialist, an Olympian or a multiple World champion, I'm not interested in opinions on technique for people skating at P&W's level, it's just uninformed hot air.

 

[overedge]

TBH if you're not an ISU Technical specialist, an Olympian or a multiple World champion, I'm not interested in opinions on technique for people skating at P&W's level, it's just uninformed hot air.

Then you probably shouldn't be reading posts on this board.

 

[Japanfan]

TBH if you're not an ISU Technical specialist, an Olympian or a multiple World champion, I'm not interested in opinions on technique for people skating at P&W's level, it's just uninformed hot air.

There are a lot of informed and insightful posts on this board, and have been for the 20 years I've been a member of the FSU community.

 

[IceSlider]

Then you probably shouldn't be reading posts on this board.

lol well at least I read the messages before commenting.

There are a lot of informed and insightful posts on this board, and have been for the 20 years I've been a member of the FSU community.

You are welcome to your opinion. Insightful yes, delightful even, there are many of that flavour but to address the comment and demonstrate "informed" you'll have to A) give specific examples where the poster had the relevant experience/qualification to comment on technique and at P&W's (or C&B etc...) level.

Have a good day both

 

[Japanfan]

You are welcome to your opinion. Insightful yes, delightful even, there are many of that flavour but to address the comment and demonstrate "informed" you'll have to A) give specific examples where the poster had the relevant experience/qualification to comment on technique and at P&W's (or C&B etc...) level.

To name one, @overedge is a competitive adult ice dancer. I think that qualifies as informed regarding ice dance techniques and levels, which she's had to learn in order to compete - moreso than the the average person to be sure.

And she is by no means the only skater/ex-skater/coach/ex-coach to have posted or be currently posting on the forum.

You might read through the 'Moves in the Field' forum to get a sense of various posters' experiences. With the caveat that the person who starts a lot of the threads there and posts in bold text is neither informed nor insightful.

I have read through the 'Practice' thread on that forum occasionally. I find it really interesting. Poster demonstrate their own experience in that thread.

Though quite a few posters are this forum are much more informed than the average person, who watches skating one every four years in the Olympics. We can tell the difference between a 3L and a 3A, and a triple and a double. And appreciate innovate spins, complicated footwork, and so on.

I've been following FS for almost 20 years and have a learned a lot from commentators and rewatching comps on TV, but even more from posters on this board. Debates about programs and marks can get very technical, and one learns a lot just by following them.

To give an example, I followed the debates on S/P versus B/S subsequent to the 2002 Olympic free skate debacle. Following those debates was like taking a crash course on pairs skating and pairs judging.

 

[IceSlider]

To name one, @overedge is a competitive adult ice dancer. I think that qualifies as informed regarding ice dance techniques and levels,

I draw your attention back to my response to you and overedge, in which I quoted their whole post. I urge you to re-read their response and perhaps read their post which quoted me.

Of course one can have an opinion on the standard that qualifies one to be "informed" about technique for people competing at P&W, C&B etc. level and one is absolutely free to express that opinion, that's not i question. The issue seems to be that overedge and you have a lower standard in what qualifies as informed than I do.

If you guys are happy with that, fine by me, take notice of each other, I can live with that "hot air" and giggle.

As for competative adult ice dance, so what? I can almost guarentee I've been skating longer and started ice dancing and competing before either of you and still am (I'm ancient ). But I wouldn't venture an opinion on technique for skaters at the Elite level because that would just be silly. Maybe being taught from an early age by skaters in the Hall of Fame knocked some humility on judging others technical accomplishment into me whilst raising my standards as to what counts as informed.

Here's the test for both of you... I dare you to engage those skaters directly face-to-face and critique their technique from that "informed" position of yours. Let's see what the reaction is or even if you'd have the courage to try and do that...

 

[chewy]

I went looking for video to prove a point and it just doesn't matter.

They are fantastic here.

Weaver, Poje Win Bronze at Figure Skating Worlds | CBC Sports

Canada's Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje skate to bronze at the 2015 world figure skating championships in Shanghai. Subscribe: http://bit.ly/CBCSportsSubscri...

www.youtube.com

My point was politik but I have said that a couple of times already.

 

[IceSlider]

I went looking for video to prove a point and it just doesn't matter.

They are fantastic here.

Weaver, Poje Win Bronze at Figure Skating Worlds | CBC Sports

Canada's Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje skate to bronze at the 2015 world figure skating championships in Shanghai. Subscribe: http://bit.ly/CBCSportsSubscri...

www.youtube.com

My point was politik but I have said that a couple of times already.

Thanks for sharing that Chewy , they work really hard to do that, like all skaters at or trying to get to that level. I think it's good to remember and to celebrate that!

 

[overedge]

Here's a test for you @IceSlider - how about reading the posts you're attacking. Because I have not criticized W&P's technique anywhere in this thread. In fact I said it improved because of the quality of the competition they were up against.

And as for you being a more credible commentator because you've skated forever and were trained by Hall of Fame members, yeah, whatever. That boasting certainly doesn't fit with the humility you claim to have learned from them.

 

[IceSlider]

Here's a test for you @IceSlider - how about reading the posts you're attacking. Because I have not criticized W&P's technique anywhere in this thread. In fact I said it improved because of the quality of the competition they were up against.

And as for you being a more credible commentator because you've skated forever and were trained by Hall of Fame members, yeah, whatever. That boasting certainly doesn't fit with the humility you claim to have learned from them.

So, I note you swerved the test overedge, and rightly so.

But let's get the sequence right, 1) you commented on my posting and "attacked". that. 2) You didn't like my response so told me not to read the boards, another attack. Japanfan chimed in. So far from "attacking" your postings in general, I was responding to posting you initiated.

As for "boasting" I suggest you take your own test first, read all my postings and see if there is evidence if that behaviour elsewhere in them. No? What a surprise, generally boastful people boast and you'll see that pattern.

So, inconvenient as it may be to your theory, there must be another reason I put that context there other than a need to "boast". And that reason is clear in the posts themselves, namely that I do not accept that you are qualified offer an informed opinion on the technique of people skating at that level (although I accept you have a right to your opinion and the right to voice it, as I have said). The context was offered to explain why that is.

Which brings us neatly back to your post quoting the "Unless you're an ISU technical specialist..." portion of mine.

The more general point I'd make is that these skaters work really hard to get to that level. If indeed people are the skating fans, it would be great if they recognised that instead of offering up armchair and uninformed critiques of technical elements that they are (in my view) not qualified to give.

For the record, I don't follow a country or team, I just love to see good skating knowing that the very "worst" of people at that level on their worst days are far superior to me on my very best days, and appeciating just how much has gone into them being able to do that. I believe that deserves respect not denigration.

I might not like a particular performance, connect with it or be moved by it but I'll sure as heck thank them for spending endless hours and caring enough to put it together, polish and perform it to try and delight.

Oh and if you're going to take my words, please quote them correctly and not rephrase them to give try and give them a new meaning I said "humility on judging others technical accomplishment." Words are like good technique, best done with precision, especially when "quoted"

 

[kittysk8ts]

Ugh.

 

[Plusdinfo]

(on topic): It's quite obvious that Weaver and Poje lacked the involvement of a certain person who seems to be absolutely delightful to all.

(This just in!): In other news, they lacked more points when they wanted to place higher but didn't.

They've had a long and successful career.