What did Weaver & Poje lack

[magnuslarson]

Weaver & Poje obviously had a successful career but never could really reach or stay at the top. They were contenders for the world title from 2014-2016 but could never win it, and were never contenders after that with Virtue & Moir coming back and Papadakis & Cizeron fully a dominant team. They also were firmly behind the Shibutanis the vast majority of their career, behind a small blip for a few years in the middle which was the Shibutanis's struggles than anything, and also had trouble beating teams like Bobrova & Soloviev, Chock & Bates, Pechalat & Bourzat, and many others most of the time. They still did well and have 3 world medals and even 1 more win at the GPF than Virtue & Moir amazingly enough, but in their 2 Olympic appearances they were only 7th and came nowhere close to the bronze medal contention some gave them an outside shot of going in.

So what did they lack. I know his twizzles was a big technical weakness compared to many of the other top teams for starters.

 

[magnuslarson]

Sorry I meant this for the General Skating Section.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I don't know about the skating, but I always thought she was inauthentic........and I never liked watching her.

 

[Scrufflet]

Sometimes I think they were just too subtle for the judges.

Several of us have seen them at SOI and all thought that it was criminal that they never were world champs.

 

[Spun Silver]

What did they lack?
A) Twizzles
B) The good luck of not having to compete against V/M, P/C or both.

They had everything else IMO, including some great programs.

 

[magnuslarson]

Their weak twizzles might be a reason they were dominated most of their careers by a team like the Shibutanis who had the best twizzles in the world. And also why they were overtaken so easily at the end of their careers by Hubbell & Donohue and also lost to Chock & Bates usually, two other teams with amazing twizzles.

 

[muffinplus]

Chock and Bates did not have amazing twizzles

 

[chantilly]

I don't know about the skating, but I always thought she was inauthentic........and I never liked watching her.

I wish I could disagree with the inauthenticity but I can’t.

She is ok at the happy light expression but the heavy/ deeper stuff was always forced for me.

But I did like watching her.

 

[chantilly]

It’s not just their twizzles. They struggled with IMO GOES overall. Sometimes they had an effortless lift and sometimes it was strained.

Sometimes they struggled with ease and flow.

They struggled with hitting all of it for an entire program, whether it was choreography, expression, twizzles etc.

But they mostly struggled with an identity or material.

They had two perfect programs IMO; Maria de B. A. And last year’s Latin.

 

[Kasey]

Great, another pseud to put on ignore. Don't you get tired of this crap? Don't you have other things to do?

 

[lauravvv]

I don't know about the skating, but I always thought she was inauthentic........and I never liked watching her.

I disagree. In any case, skaters who supposedly also have to be artists on ice, can't just be themselves in all programs, often they have to perform and act, as all performing artists do, from actors to singers.

Also, this is just too subjective to be a reason for a team not winning/placing higher. Quite many thought Virtue/Moir were performing too much in the later part of their career, but it didn't prevent them from winning another Worlds, GPF and Olympics. Apparently, judges did not dislike their style of performance - at least not enough for that to hurt them.

Of course, this is not about V/M, but my point still stands.

 

[allezfred]

Sorry I meant this for the General Skating Section.

No, this crap is where it belongs.

 

[Japanfan]

I disagree. In any case, skaters who supposedly also have to be artists on ice, can't just be themselves in all programs, often they have to perform and act, as all performing artists do, from actors to singers.

This. And not all skaters are good at performing. Just think of all the teenage girls who think that they have something unique to bring to Carmen.

And performance is particularly emphasized for ice dancers. I remember someone saying that ice dancers are expected to perform to the folks in the rafters. So it's no surprise that dancers' expressions can be over the top.

With regard to what W/P lacked, I think their career trajectory was influenced by them being in V/M's shadows for most of their careers. Even when they didn't compete with V/M, they were still in that shadow. As evident by V/Ms return for the 2018 Olympics.

Perhaps they felt comfortable being Canada's #2 dance team and didn't really have the motivation to become World Champions.

In any case, they had a respectable career and were loved by many. They have nothing to be ashamed of.

I will miss them.

 

[starrynight]

It seems a bit odd to have a thread about what a team who was in the top 5 for nine consecutive worlds and won 3 world medals 'lacks'.

They had a very successful career by most measures. By this measuring stick, what team isn't lacking? On this criteria, maybe only D/W, V/M and P/C I suspect.

I'm just assuming this a thinly veiled excuse to criticise them?

 

[chantilly]

Meh. I don’t really see anything wrong with this thread.
I find it interesting personally. Because they had all the goods and I was expecting them to be on the World podium more. I do think it was a combination of many things like I mentioned above.

Point taken about her expression as well as other skaters. I certainly don’t think that that was one of the big reasons they struggled to top the podium, but I do think she struggled to find authentic expression.

 

[skategal]

I love W&P but I always felt that some seasons they fought against doing what they were the best at.

They excelled at the “man-woman” sex/love programs but really only did that a couple of times.

I would have loved to see them skate something similar to what P&C skated to last year. Just gorgeous.

 

[bcash]

She doesn’t have enough sweep in her movements nor deep soft knee bends. But it’s no greater defect than those of any other of their competitors. So I guess..too big a shadow cast by V/M.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

For me the past few seasons... in Canada... I was captivated by the excellent innovation of G&P and then the brilliance of V&M... with this team there wasnt anything that made me rewind or say wow, look at that.

They are a solid team but for me didnt have something signature about them...or something uniquely memorable.

I find him to be too closed. I never really knew much about him. I know she is American skating for Canada and then she started getting involved with her coach (for me this became a major turn off...Morosov). So with this team there wasnt much that kept me tuned in or wanting to know more.

 

[Emilia12]

They didn’t lack anything. They are a brilliant team with great programs, who were just unlucky in many occasions, plus never had much support with ice dance politics. They had a long and quite successful career despite all those

That being said, what is the point of this thread really? They retired and moving on to different things, it’s about time to leave them to be.

 

[VGThuy]

and then she started getting involved with her coach (for me this became a major turn off...Morosov). So with this team there wasnt much that kept me tuned in or wanting to know more.

Wait...what?

 

[MarieM]

Luck. That's about it.

 

[chantilly]

She did not get involved with Morozov as far as I know.

 

[chantilly]

Luck. That's about it.

Nah. It was more then just luck.

 

[chewy]

Politics and timing. A federation can push one team at a time and what really hurt W/P was V/M announcing their return to competition before Worlds in Boston. A team that was not even back to competition affected them in the eyes of the judges. If that announcement had been done after that worlds I do believe W/P would have not dropped as they did. The fed could have told V/M not to announce so as protect their current #1. But they didn’t.

 

[sap5]

I always felt like WP were trying to be people other than who they really were. They were always trying to skate programs that supposedly had some deep meaning or story, but I felt they never connected to that meaning/story. That's probably why my favorite WP program was their 2012 SD. There was no deep meaning there; it's pure cheese, and you could see they totally connected to it. I bet if they had skated more programs like that, they'd have scored more highly.

 

[Bigbird]

The Russian Federation, solid twizzles and someone really invested in them who knew how to choreograph. Morozov taking them back to Je Suis Malade was just the kiss of death. And yeah politics, it seems that very few top coaches outside of the Gadbois group are inclined to train multiple strong teams.

 

[starrynight]

Meh. I don’t really see anything wrong with this thread.

Weaver/Poje have always been a team who can’t even be mentioned on here without posters becoming so panicked to ensure that everyone knows V/M,etc etc are better that there is immediately a big criticism fest until everyone gives up trying to even defend them.

And here we have an entire thread dedicated to it. Again.

They’ve retired, they’re not threatening anyone’s faves anymore. So surprised this is still happening.

 

[chantilly]

I guess it depends on your perspective. I thought post 2014 they were earmarked for many podium finishes.

But they seemed to lack the right vehicles after Maria. I think they obviously also struggled with twizzles.

I find it an interesting discussion because I find what happened to them a bit baffling.

To me it’s worth discussion because of that. Are they a cautionary tale?

Find who you are and stick with that.

Were they merely unlucky and skating behind the shadows of their country mates?

Was it their mentality that caused them technical issues?

I just think they’re interesting because so much was going on IMO to keep them from really vaulting ahead.

They were also left behind by other teams from other countries too.

I just don’t think it was one definable thing.

While I yes do think V and M were a much better team, and I doubt any would disagree, it’s not panic or bias on my part.

I also think there were times they were underscored including last season.

I liked W and P a lot but since 2014 they’d fallen in my opinion. Before V and M came back and before the dominance of P and C.

 

[starrynight]

I think the criticism of Weaver/Poje more comes from the fact that they sat in the top 5 for almost a decade and consistently acted as a threat to a tonne of teams. I mean, they've even beaten P/C on a couple of occasions, so they've threatened everyone.

In ice dance, if no one is criticising you, then you aren't a threat. I suppose one should try to view it as a compliment.

I guess that's why people get so worked up about W/P. No one has had a fave that they haven't gotten in the way of over the years.

 

[Colonel Green]

The twizzles were a weak point, but that's not really the issue; as some others have said, it mainly came down to luck/timing. While skaters control a lot about how they perform, things like the state of the field they're competing in aren't up to them.

Both Virtue/Moir and Davis/White would have been untouchable from 2009-2014 if the other wasn't around, for instance -- if one of Tessa's injuries had led to her having to bow out, or if Charlie had decided to retire after Vancouver to go drive around in a van solving mysteries with Tanith, things would have been very different.

For Weaver/Poje, the stars just never quite aligned.