What did Weaver & Poje lack

[starrynight]

This is silly.

Here are some facts.

- Weaver Poje finished in the top 5 for nine consecutive Worlds. No other team has done this since ice dance became Olympic eligible.

- By that marker, W/P are one of the most consistent ice dance teams in history.

- They have won 2 Grand Prix Final Titles.

- They have won 3 World Medals

- They have won more medals at Canadian Nationals in seniors than any other Canadian team in history.

- They have had programs that are key and career defining (a lot of ice dancers don't ever have that 'iconic' program known to them).

- They have had a successful career in shows.

lol I would love to hear what teams other than D/W, V/M and P/C reach everyone's standards here. Honestly, if the above list of achievements doesn't mean success, I don't know what does.

If we are talking Olympic medals - Illinyk/Katsalapov are not more successful by any measure than W/P (they peaked at one competition with a bucket load of politics). I don't really think the Shibutani's are exactly incredibly more successful either over the length of their careers. So much about the Olympics is things slotting into place for the one competition on one day. It reflects nothing about the overall nature of a skaters' career. Think Michelle Kwan.

And the fact that another poster has viewed them negatively for years on the basis of a completely bizarre piece of untrue defaming gossip tells a lot about the way ice dance fandom works. I know there's been an apology and I understand how garbage circulates on the internet, but it actually took my breath away. Goodness knows what else people think. Some fandom wars have resulted in some terrible and untrue stuff being said about a lot of ice dancers.

sigh It's just so typical of Weaver/Poje's experiences, that after all their successes, this thread is the treatment they get in retirement. As I fan of theirs, I am unfortunately used to it.

 

[vanillashake]

The Shibutanis have the same world medals as Weaver & Poje and Olympic medals on top of that. Of course they were more successful even by the notion the Olympics are not everything.

 

[vanillashake]

The Shibs have individual OBM's. (ETA: And it wasn't meant to be against W/P: I was talking about the Shib haterz because of their 2011 bronze.)

But that W/P were left off both team events, because V/M wanted to skate both programs and were given that choice. (Similarly when D/W did the same in 2014; as the strongest discipline, had D/W chosen to do one, Chock/Bates would have a team medal.)

There was no chance W/P were going to be used in 2018 since they would have badly hurt Canada's chances at Team Gold.

Think of it, there is a good chance they come only 4th in whichever round they skate behind the Americans, Russians, and Italians, with a best case of probably 2nd.

Canada was in such a close battle with Russia they could not afford to give up any points. Had Kolyada duplicated his individual event scores and placings over Chan, Russia would have won the Team Gold even as it is was, to put into perspective.

If they were going to be used it would have to be 2014, not 2018. Especialy since it was obvious Russia was never not winning gold in 2014, and super obvious Canada had the silver on lock.

 

[manhn]

An Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles? I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

 

[starrynight]

An Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles? I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

Plus add in W/Ps consistency which no other team has.

My comment wasn’t a competition with other skaters btw.

I would just like to know which teams could possibly not be subject to the same criticisms as W/P are receiving in this thread.

And don’t say V/M, P/C or D/W because there’s more to ice dance over the last decade than 3 teams. Aside from those 3 who has done any better?

To be honest, the Shibutanis are probably on equal footing, but aside from them I can’t think of any other ice dance team.

 

[vanillashake]

An Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles? I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

That is true but everytime I argue the value of the GPF to people I get poo- pooed so I have all but given up on that.

 

[dramagrrl]

Weaver/Poje have always been a team who can’t even be mentioned on here without posters becoming so panicked to ensure that everyone knows V/M,etc etc are better that there is immediately a big criticism fest until everyone gives up trying to even defend them.

I'm sorry, but I think this argument is ridiculous. I don't mean this as an insult to W/P, who I have always enjoyed, but saying that VM fans were somehow threatened by W/P in any way seems like someone saying that Michelle Kwan fans felt threatened by, say, Angela Nikodinov, or someone of that calibre. That's not to say that Nikodinov was not a good skater in her own right, but more to say that there was no real comparison.

Personally, while I like W/P a lot and will miss them at Canadians this year, I don't think luck was the only thing they were lacking. I think there were a team that were very good, but lacked Greatness with a capital G. They also were not amazing competitors and often had mistakes and lapses of focus in their biggest competitive moments.

 

[Plusdinfo]

- Weaver Poje finished in the top 5 for nine consecutive Worlds. No other team has done this since ice dance became Olympic eligible.

[to all:] I think it's perfectly fine to share thoughts about what could have made an excellent team even better. Weaver & Poje had an astonishingly good career, but some people may think they could have and/or should have achieved more. I think it's interesting to learn different views that may raise good points.

As for the remark that "no other team has" nine straight years in the top 5 at worlds, well, a certain Soviet team named Klimova & Ponomarenko were top 4 for nine straight years!! And they were top 2 for eight straight years!

Weaver & Poje got three world medals, which is very respectable, but only once were they in the top two. They made it to two Olympics, but they finished 7th each time, which is not really in line with how they did at worlds for nearly a decade. Mostly due to those reasons, before clicking on this thread, I myself had asked the question about what they lacked in order to- at least some of the time- have higher finishes.

I enjoyed most of their performances, especially "Je Suis Malade" round one, so I agree that a wiser approach may have been to highlight their differences and go the very sexy route. From memory: Andrew could seem to lack enough "flavor" or punch if the program was a bit more abstract or cerebral.

What might be highlighted more often by people in the know is what I remember as their great sportsmanship and qualities as people. I think they were quite respectful and gracious, which counts more in my book than any scores or results.

Also, think of how great it is that fans got to see them for so many years at a high level. Many skaters can't make it to such a level for so many years without injury, being overtaken, or some other issue.

 

[starrynight]

Klimova & Ponomarenko were top 4 for nine straight years!! And they were top 2 for eight straight years!

I stand corrected! Yes Klimova/Ponomarenko equaled the 9 consecutive year run. But I must say, for WP in the modern era without the political backing of the soviet era times, it’s a pretty amazing achievement. Particularly given the way some of the top teams have had freak wipe outs at worlds.

 

[Emilia12]

sigh It's just so typical of Weaver/Poje's experiences, that after all their successes, this thread is the treatment they get in retirement. As I fan of theirs, I am unfortunately used to it.

Couldn’t agree more with this. It’s such a devastating thing that after retirement such an amazing team gets a whole thread of criticism and peeking on their every mistake they ever made during their career, instead of celebrating all the great things about them, and their achievements

 

[vanillashake]

It is pretty funny they have 9 consecutive top 5 finishes at worlds yet two 7th place finishes in the Olympics in the midst of all that. Just a curious stat is all.

 

[Emilia12]

It is pretty funny they have 9 consecutive top 5 finishes at worlds yet two 7th place finishes in the Olympics in the midst of all that. Just a curious stat is all.

Politics. It’s just about it

 

[triple_toe]

Politics. It’s just about it

In 2018, they placed behind Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, the Shibs, Hubbell/Donahue, Bobrova/Soloviev, and Cappellini/Lanotte.

In 2014, the placed behind Davis/White, Virtue/Moir, Ilinykh/Katsalapov, Pechalat/Bourzat, Bobrova/Soloviev, and Cappellini/Lanotte.

I can't see how Weaver/Poje could have finished any higher than 5th at these events, given the programs and the performances. The truth is, they were always around Bobrova/Soloviev and Cappellini/Lanotte, teams that were similarly in the "good but not great" category, as reflected by the results.

Pechalat and Bourzat were usually slightly ahead of them (rightfully so IMO), but they had issues of their own.

 

[Emilia12]

In 2018, they placed behind Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, the Shibs, Hubbell/Donahue, Bobrova/Soloviev, and Cappellini/Lanotte.

In 2014, the placed behind Davis/White, Virtue/Moir, Ilinykh/Katsalapov, Pechalat/Bourzat, Bobrova/Soloviev, and Cappellini/Lanotte.

I can't see how Weaver/Poje could have finished any higher than 5th at these events, given the programs and the performances. The truth is, they were always around Bobrova/Soloviev and Cappellini/Lanotte, teams that were similarly in the "good but not great" category, as reflected by the results.

Pechalat and Bourzat were usually slightly ahead of them (rightfully so IMO), but they had issues of their own.

Giving the programs and the performances, they could easily make it into top 5 at 2014, and were a very serious contenders for bronze in 2018, but were heavily underscored. Politics

 

[Coco]

I stand corrected! Yes Klimova/Ponomarenko equaled the 9 consecutive year run. But I must say, for WP in the modern era without the political backing of the soviet era times, it’s a pretty amazing achievement. Particularly given the way some of the top teams have had freak wipe outs at worlds.

To take nothing away from K/P, to achieve these results with the introduction of IJS is nothing short of amazing.

 

[believed]

Giving the programs and the performances, they could easily make it into top 5 at 2014, and were a very serious contenders for bronze in 2018, but were heavily underscored. Politics

At the Olympics?

 

[chewy]

Politics. I've always felt that Skate Canada was never behind them as Canada #1. Oh hey, there's politics in ice dance, imagine that.

 

[Andora]

An Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles? I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

I think Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles. But agree it's not so clear cut when you take more into consideration, such as who was competing, who fell, etc.

I'm sorry, but I think this argument is ridiculous. I don't mean this as an insult to W/P, who I have always enjoyed, but saying that VM fans were somehow threatened by W/P in any way seems like someone saying that Michelle Kwan fans felt threatened by, say, Angela Nikodinov, or someone of that calibre. That's not to say that Nikodinov was not a good skater in her own right, but more to say that there was no real comparison.

I would agree, but V&M fans were definitely threatened by W&P around 2012/2014. Hell, the stupid V&M reality show was able to highlight Scott's dislike of how close their marks were getting. I think panic when your favourite team seems to be spinning their wheels can happen, and some fans overreacted accordingly.

Politics. I've always felt that Skate Canada was never behind them as Canada #1. Oh hey, there's politics in ice dance, imagine that.

Agreed. My memory could be too fuzzy, but I recall W&P having to fight very hard for position against Crone & Poirier at home. 2011 worlds, they stepped well in front internationally despite C&P winning nationals that year in V&M's absence. Even getting breathing room when Poirier and Gilles first partnered didn't leave them definitively ahead of them with a real cushion in the marks.

I agree with all the comments re: their programs and that they were placed in the tier of dancers that reflected their material (technical and artistic). Looking back, they maybe should have left Krylova much earlier, and not for Morozov. Who knows what a different scene could have done for their skills and programs? I think it speaks to how good they were that W&P placed so well with the coaching they had.

 

[puglover]

Andrew' s twizzle issues aside, which I thought were more of a concern in these last few years, I felt W/P were a team who really learned to compete. I thought they got tight at the Nationals right before the 2010 Olympics and it was kind of a toss up between C/P with an obvious error but who really went for it and a slightly tentative W/P. They learned from that though and came out fighting each and every time. I really admire them for that.

 

[starrynight]

I'm sorry, but I think this argument is ridiculous. I don't mean this as an insult to W/P, who I have always enjoyed, but saying that VM fans were somehow threatened by W/P in any way seems like someone saying that Michelle Kwan fans felt threatened by, say, Angela Nikodinov, or someone of that calibre.

There’s more to this than just results. Anyone closely following WP and VM knows there has been a big amount of backlash at WP from sections of the VM fandom (some of it quite personal and vicious to be honest). A lot of that was to do with another Canadian team having popularity and a big fan base and wanting to be Canada #1 - that being the source of the threat. Not just the scores on paper. The default position seemed to be to hate on P/C and W/P as they were the two direct threats. It’s all silly because it is. (Most fandom drama is inherently silly). But it was there.

It’s mostly not visible on these forums though. A bit like how I never see any of the drama say with Yuzuru vs Nathan because it happens elsewhere.

Another thing that I think is interesting and noteworthy about Weaver/Poje is their very loyal and large fan base. Everybody knows about the V/M fan base, but in my experience the W/P fan base is just as committed and, if not as large as V/M's, still impressive in size. Skaters don't inspire such love and devotion from a large group of fans if there isn't something very memorable about their skating. While some here have complained about lack of chemistry between W/P, their fans saw great chemistry and were drawn in by that.

I agree.

 

[Japanfan]

An Olympic bronze is better than 2 GPF titles? I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

I think it's more prestigious. But not necessarily reflective of actual accomplishments and skills.

 

[Mad for Skating]

No one is saying W/P can't be enjoyed or they don't have their merits. However, given that this thread is specifically dedicated to the question of why they never reached the top of any big podiums, I don't see analysis as a lack of positivity, but simply an opportunity to discuss the topic at hand.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss their weaknesses diplomatically, I'm just saying some of these posters seem to be using it as an excuse to hate on them. You're fine.

 

[chantilly]

Hmm. I don’t see any hate. I think some people have strong criticism, but that’s not hate.

 

[nyrak]

I have never seen such a beautiful, heart-warming reaction as what I saw, and heard, at the Nationals in Vancouver right before the last Olympics. Kaitlyn and Andrew had a rough short dance and all in attendance knew they had to be flawless to get that third Olympic spot. For some reason it took awhile for the previous skaters marks to come up and as Kaitlyn and Andrew skated around the crowd totally erupted and did everything they could to show their support and love for them. I know they were very touched. I agree they have a very loyal fanbase and I have never felt I couldn't be a fan of V&M and W&P. They really come alive, at least to me, as show skaters. I thought their RD from last season was dynamite and I really didn't understand why it didn't reflect that in the marks.

I was there in Vancouver for that, I got choked up right along with Kaitlyn & most of the audience. One of my favourite skating memories for sure.

 

[vanillashake]

Politics. I've always felt that Skate Canada was never behind them as Canada #1. Oh hey, there's politics in ice dance, imagine that.

That is not only since Virtue & Moir were usually there, but CSA's long standing love (often unjustified) of Paul Poirier.

 

[angi]

I refuse to use the Shibs’ team medal against W&P when they should have two.

No team "should" have anything, it's a federation's decision who to pick for the team event and as far as I'm concerned it was correct in 2014 and even more so in 2018 (all it would have taken is one bad skate from either Gabby or Patrick, something that happened in the games, and Canada would have lost their advantage and given the fact that W/P were beaten by B/S, C/L, and the Shibs in the individual event it would have likely cost them the gold). A team doesn't get to be in the team event just because they are good, they need to be able to maximize their country's chances and W/P were not in that position.

I need to link you to my post about uber Matrixes lol. W/P found themselves as collateral to fan wars. Basically, they rubbed a lot of noses the wrong way after V/M retired for the first time and W/P won a couple of Grand Prix Final titles, won 2 world medals and had success as Canadian number 1 for a couple of years in V/M's absence. V/M ubers wanted W/P crushed for that insolence. And to a much lesser extent, W/P also annoyed a lot of P/C fans back in the early part of last quad when they were a threat to them. So they were caught in a hard place.

Using other teams and/or other teams fans is a cheap shot. I've never seen V/M or P/C fans attack W/P over their achievements in 2014/15 or 2015/16 - I would love if you could direct me to some examples since it's unfair to claim it without any backup. I mean don't get me wrong, both fandoms have their crazies in them, but in regards to W/P, they had their own fan base (both good and bad).

The truth is that W/P had an exemplary career and they accomplished so much and both they and their fans should be happy and proud of their legacy.
As for what they lack, for me it was never about luck, reading protocols after each one of their events it was obvious that they always left many points on the table with either their twizzles issues or levels lost (or both). When they managed to skate clean they usually medaled. Unfortunately, in 2016/17 and 2017/18 they rarely managed to skate clean. To me they also suffered from their coaching move (Mozorov was a problematic fit for them) and from questionable programs choices - having to switch at least one program in 3 out of 4 seasons in the last quad both cost them valuable training time and sent a bad message to the judges regarding their judgement when it came to the material they are going to put on the ice. And lastly, being the only top team to reuse an old program in the Olympic season, and a truly old one, was an issue as well in my opinion.
But again, having faults as a team doesn't take away from what they achieved, I think with most of the teams we can look back and ask "what more could they have done?" or "What would have made them more successful?", it's not a question relevant solely to W/P.

 

[starrynight]

I would love if you could direct me to some examples

I could give you loads, but it's best to not give that awful stuff a platform on this forum. As a fan, I just found a lot of the often really personal trolling to be such a negative experience. I had to block more than a hundred accounts on twitter alone just so I wouldn't see the stuff when trying to read about W/P, and these days I've just stopped looking so I don't have to risk seeing it.

I actually can't believe people think it doesn't exist and hasn't happened. I'm a bit mind blown, to be honest. That said, there's a lot to be said about being a skating fan who only reads the forums and doesn't follow other forms of social media - because that's where all the bad drama and the trolling unfolds. The bubble of FSU is really well moderated and is quite sensible (even compared to the other forums out there).

It's kind of like on here, for example, you'd never have the slightest clue that say one set of ubers are sending death threats to a skater on Instagram or have a clue why that would happen (a la Mariah Bell, Sotnikova etc etc) . There's just such differing sections of the skating fandom and depending on what you see it massively changes your perspective on things and on how you view things. And then when someone says 'I've never seen that' or 'no one is saying that' it's a bit of a mind warp.

Like on here, the perspective on Russian ladies is very level headed. But it's going off like a frog in a sock in other sections of the internet or on other forums. And then I suppose often the internet doesn't even represent the real world - much like the way Medvedeva realised that the real life experience was that she had support in Russia even when the internet was calling her a traitor.

And by the way, I will say that this isn't a comment on V/M directly - because I would say that ironically they cop even more from the same trolls who pretend to be their fans and actually in much worse ways. Particularly from the trolls who have strong opinions about their personal lives etc (and I feel sorry for them about that). So this is about the trolls and not the skaters themselves.

 

[overedge]

They had the misfortune to compete against three teams who, in terms of results, rank among the greatest of all time: Virtue/Moir, Papadakis/Cizeron, and Davis/White. Their international senior career started in the same year as D/W and V/M (2006-7) (although V/M had 1 senior competition the year previous).

This. I'm not a huge fan of theirs, but they had the bad luck to have not one, not two, but three legendary teams competing against them, one after the other. No doubt that challenge made them work harder and be better than they might have been otherwise - and they managed to stay in the top 10, and higher, for a very long time against such strong competition. In other years they might have been able to push to the very top, but not with that logjam at the top of the standings.

 

[angi]

I could give you loads, but it's best to not give that awful stuff a platform on this forum. As a fan, I just found a lot of the often really personal trolling to be such a negative experience. I had to block more than a hundred accounts on twitter alone just so I wouldn't see the stuff when trying to read about W/P, and these days I've just stopped looking so I don't have to risk seeing it.

I actually can't believe people think it doesn't exist and hasn't happened. I'm a bit mind blown, to be honest. That said, there's a lot to be said about being a skating fan who only reads the forums and doesn't follow other forms of social media - because that's where all the bad drama and the trolling unfolds. The bubble of FSU is really well moderated and is quite sensible (even compared to the other forums out there).

Of course I know what you are referring to exists but that should not be considered as if it's the norm with fans of skating or be given as examples for arguments mentioned. I too had to block numerous accounts on social media that were trolling skaters (even those they were supposedly fans of) but I would never mention those when discussing anything about skating. Those are trolls, they are not fans, 99% of the time they don't care about either skating or the skaters they are pretending to be fans of. So there's no need to be mindblown, just realize that for most people, using trolling arguments as a valid example just isn't taken seriously (this is not a dig at you or anything, just in general the more people will ignore trolling the more likely it is to disappear since they thrive on attention).

 

[NAOTMAA]

I don't follow ice dance as much as the other three disciplines but it always looked to me that despite their medals and achievements they always appeared on the outside looking in, right on the edge but never crossing it. It felt like every time a top team retired that instead of moving up in the rankings like usual to take their place at the top a new team suddenly appeared and surpassed them. Always the bridesmaids and never the bride. They just seemed very unlucky and lost in the mix even if their actual record says different. That's why it feels like they "lacked something"