UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

[Tavi]

^ So you have 3 examples over 5 seasons. The better question is why jazz hands would be inappropriate when skating to musical theater, Prince’s music, which is influenced by jazz, and Riverdance?

 

[layman]

3 examples?

www.google.com/search?q=jason+brown+figure+skating&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS761US761&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw7MOK1fTcAhVus1kKHbB2CGIQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=_

 

[Skittl1321]

None of the examples of Jason in this thread are jazz hands. Those are all just gestures. The Prince one doesn't even have splayed fingers!

Jazz hands are forward facing palms with splayed fingers. Some people say the fingers have to be moving, but if you take Fosse's Pippin as a great example of them, I think that's too narrow. They don't have to wiggle spirit finger style

This MIGHT be a jazz hand, depending on the movement he was moving through (a still photo isn't going to show the whole story)


Judging from the "jazz hands" examples above- is the poster's issue the expressive, happy face? That seems to be the commonality in the photos.

 

[The Accordion]

None of the examples of Jason in this thread are jazz hands. Those are all just gestures. The Prince one doesn't even have splayed fingers!

Jazz hands are forward facing palms with splayed fingers. Some people say the fingers have to be moving, but if you take Fosse's Pippin as a great example of them, I think that's too narrow. They don't have to wiggle spirit finger style

This MIGHT be a jazz hand, depending on the movement he was moving through (a still photo isn't going to show the whole story)

Judging from the "jazz hands" examples above- is the poster's issue the expressive, happy face? That seems to be the commonality in the photos.

I agree that most of the examples are not jazz hands but rather a mix of expressive use of the hands with dancer hands. People with dance training - particularly ballet training in my experience - tend to be aware of their hands and they go into a ballet type of hand position - with tension in the fingers - as a default. Also - this may be one of the weirder complaints I've read on FSU.

 

[layman]

...Also - this may be one of the weirder complaints I've read on FSU.

I don't think so. If Dick Button were still commentating Figure Skating, he would be all over this. It's distracting, superfluous and it takes away from Jason's skating.

Someone on his team should have told him so a long time ago. Now that he has a new team...I think its time for another intervention.

 

[Tavi]

3 examples?

www.google.com/search?q=jason+brown+figure+skating&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS761US761&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw7MOK1fTcAhVus1kKHbB2CGIQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=_

Yes, you listed three examples. As Skittle pointed out, they’re not really even jazz hands. And frankly, most of the images in your link aren’t jazz hands either. But hey, carry on criticizing.

 

[Impromptu]

I don't think so. If Dick Button were still commentating Figure Skating, he would be all over this. It's distracting, superfluous and it takes away from Jason's skating.

Interview with Dick Button, circa 2014:

Q: What did you think of Jeremy Abbott and Jason Brown at U.S. Nationals?

A: I thought they were both good! Jeremy Abbott had a wonderful short program and was very good. He's an elegant skater with great line and great softness of edges. Jason Brown was superb. His choreography was done by Rohene Ward and that program really had a beginning, middle and an end. You didn't know what to expect. His extension was extraordinary. The music and program was very difficult to skate to because Irish music is up and down, meaning it's vertical stepping. It's tapping and there's little upper body movement but his program was beautifully done.

 

[el henry]

@Impromptu beat me to the "Dick Button commentates on Jason Brown" links. Dick Button is indeed offering commentary, and every single one on Jason Brown that I have seen is positive.

Jazz hands? Oh puhleeze, it's clear that the OP doesn't even know what jazz hands are and hasn't seen a Jason Brown program skated in the past five years.

It's off season folks

 

[Carolla5501]

I don't see jazz hands as a "beautiful element." I think there should be a one point deduction every time they are used in a program.

Well we can’t see why you probably Are not a judge

Just because you don’t think something is beautiful does not mean that skater should be penalized.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Jazz Hands:

I always thought that "Jazz Hands" is "Fosse hands", a specific style he developed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UN68ujZdTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU

 

[misskarne]

The examples @layman came up with aren't even jazz hands. It's just Jason using his hands as a part of his expression. The example @Skittl1321 showed was an end pose.

Jason is, undisputed, unquestionably, unchallenged, the most artistic US man since Joshua left us, and you're going to complain that he expresses the music all the way through to his fingertips? C'mon.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Jason is, undisputed, unquestionably, unchallenged, the most artistic US man since Joshua left us, and you're going to complain that he expresses the music all the way through to his fingertips? C'mon.

For me it is Johnny Weir (from the past), and now Alexandre Johnson.... so elegant, and well put together..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xui4dH8Ascw

 

[dinakt]

Jason looks great with the new haircut.

 

[leigh466]

Spanish is not the same language as English, and the useage of words is extremely different.
Just let me know when Orser travels to the Occident.

I am well aware of the Latin root words. I took latin for 8 years. But the term is outdated. If you are Chinese and defending the useage, I'll step down; I'm not. But the Chinese and Chinese-Americans I know find the term offensive because it makes their country seem "mystical", which it isn't. The country has a name, and it's China. The continent has a name, and it's Asia. "The Orient" is an outdated term when used to describe these places. Saying Orser will travel to the Orient isn't necessary when other more appropriate, and more specific words say the exact same thing. Being classed as exotic, and otherwise othering people tells them that they don't belong, that they are different from the norm. That's not appropriate, it's not OK to say the norm has to be "western".

There are lots of words we used to say regularly that are no longer a part of general speech.
It's not about being "politically correct", it's about caring what other humans think and how words affect people.

Now I'm going back to focusing on Orser and Brown. You all can argue about speech all you want, but I think it's important to call things out. People don't always change their behavior if they haven't had time to think about it.

I think of these things in terms of common courtesy. If I tell you my name is Jeremy and you call me Remy, I would considerate that rude and really, more like deliberately demeaning. People should be called what they themselves ask to be called, likewise countries, peoples, and ethnic groups. It's just simply common courtesy.

 

[BittyBug]

Jason is, undisputed, unquestionably, unchallenged, the most artistic US man since Joshua left us.....

I like Jason alot. He is a great performer who does not shy away from complex choreography and always gives his all on the ice. But I don't think he's any more artistic or expressive than some of his U.S. competitors, like Alexander Johnson or Timothy Dolensky. Johnson sometimes tenses up in performance but he takes on equally challenging choreography and is not afraid to try different styles each season. Dolensky is also adventurous in his choreography and is extremely musical but his jumps are not consistent and when they fail they detract from the performance. Finally, current U.S. and World Champion, Nathan Chan, is a brilliant dancer on ice and showed last season that he is more than capable of being artistic. It's harder to show that when you're throwing down six quads, but this is first and foremost a sport so I don't fault him for it.

To me Jason is Broadway, Nathan is NYC Ballet, and Johnson and Dolensky are modern dancers (I wouldn't quite say Mark Morris or Twyla Tharp because they are not that avant guard but their choreography and expression tends to be first and foremost about movement to music, whereas Brown to me comes across as being about performance and entertainment.

 

[Tavi]

^ If it’s unnecessary to decide who’s the most artistic US male skater, it’s probably also unnecessary to put them in permanent boxes - for example, is Nathan NYCB just because he studied ballet and his first program was Corsaire? What about Nemesis? Is Jason about performance and entertainment because of programs like Hamilton? What about Piano? And so forth.

Also, I think it’s good idea to remember that skaters often aren’t choosing their own music, the style, movement, etc. JMO.

 

[Japanfan]

"Orient" IS LATIN for "raising/of the Sun in the East"... so unless one is against a) Latin, b) Sun, c) geographical East... there is NOTHING pejorative about "Orient" or its adjective "Oriental".

But if the people whom the words describe feel it is pejorative or inaccurate, then it is fair to respect them and call them by the name/word they prefer.

 

[SHARPIE]

Just stop with the embedded pictures already.

 

[feraina]

Ok. Can I just say that I’m Chinese American and ‘the orient’ doesn’t bother me? I just find it quaint. I’ve lived in the UK where it is used more often and without the the perception of an insult. @barbarafan is an older Canadian (I think), so her usage of it may be similar.

Plus it is not the word that’s the problem but the deeper issue of prejudice associated with the group it refers to. If the word is changed to avoid the prejudice but nothing is done to change the prejudice then the new neutral word gets associated with prejudice quickly. That happened to words like disabled and handicapped, and also negro. This cycle only stops when prejudice against the group has significantly abated in the broader society. This is true for being ‘gay’ or ‘oriental’ — and so the ‘bad’ meaning of these words are starting to disappear as well. You can read all about this in The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker.

 

[BittyBug]

^ If it’s unnecessary to decide who’s the most artistic US male skater, it’s probably also unnecessary to put them in permanent boxes - for example, is Nathan NYCB just because he studied ballet and his first program was Corsaire? What about Nemesis? Is Jason about performance and entertainment because of programs like Hamilton? What about Piano? And so forth

A passing comment on FSU is hardly a “permanent box.” And the styles I ascribe to the skaters I mentioned aren’t driven by their music choices but by how they move and express themselves. There is far more to ballet than just the classics and NYC Ballet was very much a driver of modern ballet. Even in Nemesis, Nathan moves like a classically trained dancer.

 

[Tavi]

A passing comment on FSU is hardly a “permanent box.” And the styles I ascribe to the skaters I mentioned aren’t driven by their music choices but by how they move and express themselves. There is far more to ballet than just the classics and NYC Ballet was very much a driver of modern ballet. Even in Nemesis, Nathan moves like a classically trained dancer.

Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be critical of your comment in particular. Since this thread is nominally about Jason, I’ll just say that the characterization of Jason as an entertainer and performer is so common as to seem like a box.

 

[jlai]

Spanish is not the same language as English, and the useage of words is extremely different.
Just let me know when Orser travels to the Occident.

I am well aware of the Latin root words. I took latin for 8 years. But the term is outdated. If you are Chinese and defending the useage, I'll step down; I'm not. But the Chinese and Chinese-Americans I know find the term offensive because it makes their country seem "mystical", which it isn't.

I speak Chinese and I don't find the term offensive. LIke a lot of terms, I didn't find them offensive until I came to the US and got told by Americans certain terms are offensive. BUt where I came from, many things were not that offensive.

I won't be surprised if some Chinese find that offensive, but most Chinese don't speak English as a first language, so they must have learned whether the term is offensive from their English teacher. In other words, the source for such determination resides in the English speaking world and not the Chinese world.

I try not to use the term because Americans find that offensive but I do admit to occasionally let it slip.

 

[barbarafan]

I speak Chinese and I don't find the term offensive. LIke a lot of terms, I didn't find them offensive until I came to the US and got told by Americans certain terms are offensive. BUt where I came from, many things were not that offensive.

I try not to use the term because Americans find that offensive but I do admit to occasionally let it slip.

Thank god the season is starting.....Just saying

 

[BittyBug]

Since this thread is nominally about Jason, I’ll just say that the characterization of Jason as an entertainer and performer is so common as to seem like a box.

Ok, I can see that. And Piano was clearly an attempt to show another side of Jason.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how Jason evolves under different tutelage. He has the talent to go in any direction.

 

[jlai]

Thank god the season is starting.....Just saying

Sorry I am not trying to start anything. I'm just pointing out the strangeness of having the power of determining whether a foreign word that is not part of a native vocabulary is offensive. To do that you first have to master the language well enough and to have enough immersion in that particular foreign culture to know...

This is my linguistic courses in my teens speaking up...

 

[barbarafan]

Sorry I am not trying to start anything. I'm just pointing out the strangeness of having the power of determining whether a foreign word that is not part of a native vocabulary is offensive. To do that you first have to master the language well enough and to have enough immersion in that particular foreign culture to know...

This is my linguistic courses in my teens speaking up...

I do appreciate knowledge of any kind.....It is just....I had a brain fart and it almost started WWIII on FSU...It must be one of my super powers.

 

[Tavi]

Ok, I can see that. And Piano was clearly an attempt to show another side of Jason.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how Jason evolves under different tutelage. He has the talent to go in any direction.

Agreed. Jason himself said that the move to TCC wasn’t just about quads, that he needed a change, and that he feels he has room to grow artistically as well as technically, and I’m looking forward to seeing where he goes from here.

I do think Jason is a high energy guy who can handle Broadway-type choreo on ice and connects easily with audiences; Rohene has given him a lot of SPs that capitalize on that, and of course the program that most people remember is probably Riverdance. So I can see why people think of him as an entertainer. Hopefully the move - symbolized by the end of the ponytail- will allow him to express different things and move in different ways.

 

[Tinami Amori]

But if the people whom the words describe feel it is pejorative or inaccurate, then it is fair to respect them and call them by the name/word they prefer.

No, "people whom this word describes" do NOT feel it is a pejorative. Check out posts #412 and #409...
If you want a real "pejorative against Asians" fight, you have to find this African-American Democratic Candidate and harass her..
https://www.newsweek.com/michigan-black-democrat-racist-asian-comments-ching-chong-1077578

 

[kwanfan1818]

Chen is Ballet West-trained, which is far more eclectic training. The only classical work that NYCB did under Balanchine was "Swan Lake, Act II," based on the Ivanov choreography, and even Martins hadn't ventured farther than a full length "Swan Lake" and "Sleeping Beauty."

Ballet West AD Adam Sklute danced at the Joffrey Ballet, a whole different kettle of fish than SAB, and he's brought that to Ballet West. While BW has never done the full length "La Bayadere," at least during his tenure, it's likely that Chen would have studied at least the greatest hits in the VW school -- hard to say about SAB, since the generation of old school Russian teachers that Balanchine brought in have died -- and he would have seen a far wider range of choreography, including classical choreography, as a student there than he would have at SAB.

I think that shows in his movement quality.

ETA, to avoid double posting: Order isn't the only prominent Canadian to be recruited by China for youth development in his sport in the lead-up to Beijing: Wayne Gretzky has been, too.
https://www.si.com/olympics/2018/08/08/wayne-gretzky-kunlun-red-star-ambassador-beijing-olympics

 

[Yazmeen]

Nope, not Jason Brown...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03TBYTI_a8A