UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

aftershocks

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I like Jason alot. He is a great performer who does not shy away from complex choreography and always gives his all on the ice. But I don't think he's any more artistic or expressive than some of his U.S. competitors, like Alexander Johnson or Timothy Dolensky. Johnson sometimes tenses up in performance but he takes on equally challenging choreography and is not afraid to try different styles each season. Dolensky is also adventurous in his choreography and is extremely musical but his jumps are not consistent and when they fail they detract from the performance. Finally, current U.S. and World Champion, Nathan Chan, is a brilliant dancer on ice and showed last season that he is more than capable of being artistic. It's harder to show that when you're throwing down six quads, but this is first and foremost a sport so I don't fault him for it.

To me Jason is Broadway, Nathan is NYC Ballet, and Johnson and Dolensky are modern dancers (I wouldn't quite say Mark Morris or Twyla Tharp because they are not that avant guard but their choreography and expression tends to be first and foremost about movement to music, whereas Brown to me comes across as being about performance and entertainment.
^ If it’s unnecessary to decide who’s the most artistic US male skater, it’s probably also unnecessary to put them in permanent boxes - for example, is Nathan NYCB just because he studied ballet and his first program was Corsaire? What about Nemesis? Is Jason about performance and entertainment because of programs like Hamilton? What about Piano? And so forth.

Also, I think it’s good idea to remember that skaters often aren’t choosing their own music, the style, movement, etc. JMO.
Funny thing I suppose, but I agree to some degree with both of you. :D There's no need to put skaters in 'permanent boxes,' but I don't think BittyBug was necessarily doing that with her wonderfully expressed viewpoints. Jason is definitely about performance and entertainment and bringing the audience in, but he's also very musical and lyrical with wonderful stretch and expressive qualities that tell a story. I think Jason can do anything, but I can see why he might be deemed as a Broadwayesque kind of skater. Jason has great range and ability, and it will be interesting to see what he might be able to tap into and explore further in his skating (without being too caught up in or hampered by everyone else's urgency for him to master quad).

I'm simply in love with Alexander Johnson. It would be so cool to meet him in person. It seems that Alex loves singles skating, even though he probably could also excel as an ice dancer. I love watching Alex on the ice, period. He definitely challenges himself with every program. He's very musical and expressive and he takes risks. How lucky are we that Alex achieved a breakthrough skating to Eleanor Rigby with the help of his former coach/choreographer, Tom Dickson. Theirs was a match made in heaven. I look forward to seeing what Alex will be competing this season. I don't care if he ever jumps, because for me it's the way he moves on the ice, no matter what maneuver. I commend him for working hard to develop all of the harder jumps that were eluding him. I don't know if he's ever worked on going for quads, and to me that's not important. I just hope he continues to hone all the wonderful skills he's got and work on overall technical consistency rather than pressing the tech envelope. I want Alex to continue pressing the creative envelope.

Timothy Dolensky is another skater who is also very musical. Like Nathan, Tim plays piano. He's also a very skilled spinner. I think Tim has the capacity for greater growth in his skating (re consistency, confidence and pushing the envelope technically and artistically). Tim strikes me as shy, but passionate. I think his still waters run deep. I'm not sure whether to say that Tim and Alex are solely modern dancers in terms of figure skating. But I can see why it's possible to characterize them that way based on how they both move over the ice. I think both of them could also skate quite beautifully to classical ballet themes.

Nathan has a solid background in ballet, and he could have been a ballet dancer. In some of his junior programs, we can definitely see the artistic, graceful, lyrical qualities of Nathan. However, he purposely began to focus more on the technical aspects of jumping as he was making the transition to seniors and seeing the lay of the land (i.e., Boyang Jin aceing quad-triple and landing on the World podium as a newbie senior). Nathan has excellent technique, but he could develop softer knees and also better posture on his landings (more erect and less falling forward). I think skating and flying through the air on the ice spoke to Nathan more than being a ballet dancer. There's actually a bit more freedom for Nathan to express his personality in skating, than in ballet. I wouldn't categorize Nathan in terms of style because he's new and different, and he's still quite young. Nathan is fresh and exciting, and I wish him well on his journey. I hope he can rise to another level as a skater in a way that accesses all of his extraordinary talents, beyond being mainly known as The Quad King. Certainly the sport would benefit if that happened.

I think Jason, Nathan, Timothy and Alex all have great range and unique on-ice and off-ice personalities. They are all fun to watch. U.S. men are always exciting (that includes Vincent, Sean, Jimmy, et al). Past and present.
 

antmanb

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^ So you have 3 examples over 5 seasons. The better question is why jazz hands would be inappropriate when skating to musical theater, Prince’s music, which is influenced by jazz, and Riverdance?
Sorry I know that you were responding to someone saying he over uses jazz hands in his programmes when, in fact, it looks like he hasn't at all. But I nearly :rofl: on the floor at the idea that jazz hands would be anything but inappropriate in The Question Of U which was Jason's prince programme.
 

slicekw

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I don't think so. If Dick Button were still commentating Figure Skating, he would be all over this. It's distracting, superfluous and it takes away from Jason's skating.

Someone on his team should have told him so a long time ago. Now that he has a new team...I think its time for another intervention.
WhoaWhoaWhoa. I like Uncle Dick. He was the only one that called out the superfluous and distracting Windmill that was Evan's OGM program(and most of Plushy's skating). I think while Uncle Dick has always enjoyed good skating and good storytelling, his "men should skate like men" homophobic training may be a thing of the past.

Jason _IS_ jazz hands. It's his persona. Just like Eeyore = depression, Jason = jazz hands. But it would be nice to see him channel that energy into working with a different style of music. What we need to see from Jason is less of "character" skating; it would be nice to see him skate to music that he just gets lost in and interprets.
 

LarrySK8

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I speak Chinese and I don't find the term offensive. LIke a lot of terms, I didn't find them offensive until I came to the US and got told by Americans certain terms are offensive. BUt where I came from, many things were not that offensive.

I won't be surprised if some Chinese find that offensive, but most Chinese don't speak English as a first language, so they must have learned whether the term is offensive from their English teacher. In other words, the source for such determination resides in the English speaking world and not the Chinese world.

I try not to use the term because Americans find that offensive but I do admit to occasionally let it slip.
My experience with this (professional, personal and in relationships) is that "oriental" should be reserved for inanimate objects. The Orient describes a place in antiquated terms.

"Asian" should be used for living beings. "Oriental" for objects, like rugs. No one is mad with a store labelled "Oriental Rugs," for example.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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My experience with this (professional, personal and in relationships) is that "oriental" should be reserved for inanimate objects. The Orient describes a place in antiquated terms.

"Asian" should be used for living beings. "Oriental" for objects, like rugs. No one is mad with a store labelled "Oriental Rugs," for example.
This post explains it well.
 

jlai

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My experience with this (professional, personal and in relationships) is that "oriental" should be reserved for inanimate objects. The Orient describes a place in antiquated terms.

"Asian" should be used for living beings. "Oriental" for objects, like rugs. No one is mad with a store labelled "Oriental Rugs," for example.
Yes, I have learned as an adult not to use oriental to refer to people. I very occasionally forgot and used oriental to refer to the 'east'. (That is because that west east concept does and still exists in Chinese. ) But I learned all about the word oriental from the practice of speaking English.
in other words it is a learned behavior.
 

Tinami Amori

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"Asian" should be used for living beings. "Oriental" for objects, like rugs. No one is mad with a store labelled "Oriental Rugs," for example.
The original post did NOT use "orient" for "living beings" but to describe a geographic location..... :D
He may also be combining the trips with competitions in the Orient where he stays after for a week or two.
 

DreamSkates

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I'm always happy to see Jason's infectious smile too. :)

This was a major change for Jason and I can understand why he is still getting comfortable with it. As I think back on all the young Jason photos he's posted over the years, his hair was never this short. The good news is that now that he's made the plunge, he can try out various lengths / styles until he finds what works best for him.

General rant here:
Length of hair does not equal "maturity" or "becoming an adult".
But he does look great with his new cut - sophisticated.
 

aftershocks

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... it would be nice to see him skate to music that he just gets lost in and interprets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61k2XjRryM :encore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9rbM3Tazes :respec: coming after Rippon's blazing performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtbZP688V9w If not for overwrought quad-mania, and 'Shoman-mania' Jason should have won 2016 SA with this performance; & JB landed the quad well enuf, no matter what angle pesky judges viewed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gyIwvHY04o :swoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQxayQWnXm4 Freakin' amazin' Jason Brown! Mad respect! One would need way more than 'jazz hands' to even think of attempting this program. IOW, 'jazz hands' need not apply!

If these performances are not skating to music 'he just gets lost in, interprets,' and weaves a compelling story to through his expressive artistry and athleticism, then I don't know what the world has come to! Jason has range. 'Jazz hands' and 'searching for a viral moment' comments are in the heads of those caught up in their own heads. Just sayin' ...
 

slicekw

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If these performances are not skating to music 'he just gets lost in, interprets,' and weaves a compelling story to through his expressive artistry and athleticism, then I don't know what the world has come to! Jason has range. 'Jazz hands' and 'searching for a viral moment' comments are in the heads of those caught up in their own heads. Just sayin' ...
Just a note to clear up your misunderstanding of what I said.... In 2017/2018 Jason didn't have any of those interpretive moments. I think the music didn't "sing" to him the way some of the other routines did. It's ok, we all grow and change. I'm hoping that he can get back to that feeling while competing.

And I didn't mean he was "Jazz Hands" the movement. He's got that energy, that great big burst of warmth that jazz hands signifies in the purest sense. He doesn't have to do the movement, because he is the movement. But to channel that into something with intensity and purity...that's why so many of us watch (we wait for that gift) and that's what seems to drive him to skate. To see that interpretive energy used well is spellbinding. He's got that gift.
 

aftershocks

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^^ Okay. We all have different ways of interpreting and perceiving what we enjoy about figure skating and the skaters we love. Jason Brown is definitely gifted, and it's a shame the judges do not see fit to truly reward him at the highest level for his superb presentation skills. They keep him at a particular range in the marks which is near the top, but never where it should be in all PCS categories. Meanwhile, they over-reward some excellent technicians who are okay presentation-wise but not spectacular. I think the critiques and 'never satisfied' fan expectations of Jason are overdone. He's had a difficult few years with injury and setbacks which he has handled like a champion.

I hope everything will be looking up for Jason. Talent like his should be better respected and rewarded.
 
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layman

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Constructive criticism works! I watched Jason's short and long program from the Autumn Classic. Kudos to Jason and his team taking my advice and toning down the jazz hands.

If you are only surrounded by yes people who say that you are wonderful and perfect, you miss out on constructive feedback that might benefit you in the long run.

This change has already enhanced Jason's skating. I really appreciated Jason's choreography more without all the unnecessay distractions. Kudos all around!
 

Tinami Amori

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Constructive criticism works! I watched Jason's short and long program from the Autumn Classic. Kudos to Jason and his team taking my advice and toning down the jazz hands.

If you are only surrounded by yes people who say that you are wonderful and perfect, you miss out on constructive feedback that might benefit you in the long run.

This change has already enhanced Jason's skating. I really appreciated Jason's choreography more without all the unnecessay distractions. Kudos all around!
Please don't give Jason any ideas that jumps are also the unnecessary distraction..:p
 

layman

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The jumps are a work in progress. He has to work on the jumps, but even though there were problems with some of them in the LP, I can already see how the new team are tweaking the technique for the better.
 

el henry

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Constructive criticism works! I watched Jason's short and long program from the Autumn Classic. Kudos to Jason and his team taking my advice and toning down the jazz hands.

If you are only surrounded by yes people who say that you are wonderful and perfect, you miss out on constructive feedback that might benefit you in the long run.

This change has already enhanced Jason's skating. I really appreciated Jason's choreography more without all the unnecessay distractions. Kudos all around!
And if you are only surrounded by people who insist on calling movements “jazz hands” that have nothing to do with “jazz hands”, then you are surrounded by folks who don’t know what they’re talking about, and that truly does nothing to enhance your skating.

Jason may indeed be making changes for the better. But “toning down jazz hands” had nothing to do with it, since he never had them in the first place :lol:
 

DimaToe

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Yes jumps are king but I like that Jason has always done skating “his way” more or less, he still has a lot to give. As a side note i love how “jazz hands” is just being thrown around ignorantly, Fosse is probably turning in his grave right now.
 

Carolla5501

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Constructive criticism works! I watched Jason's short and long program from the Autumn Classic. Kudos to Jason and his team taking my advice and toning down the jazz hands.

If you are only surrounded by yes people who say that you are wonderful and perfect, you miss out on constructive feedback that might benefit you in the long run.

This change has already enhanced Jason's skating. I really appreciated Jason's choreography more without all the unnecessay distractions. Kudos all around!

Breaking news. They have no idea who you are. But at least your funny.
 

concorde

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I will be first to admit that I have never been a Jason Brown fan but I absolutely LOVED his short for this year - WOW!!!

Not sure which I LOVE more - this short or Ashley's La La Land dress.
 

Rock2

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Randomly, since this was sort of brought up --
Love Jason's programs (and hair!) this year.

His hands (not arms so much) really distracted me in the short. A bit too much movement and a little...hmmmm... too 'soft'; would have liked a little more tension and strength there.

Just how I reacted to it....
 

aftershocks

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I love Jason's new sp and his sp costume! The music for his fp, IMHO, simply is not right for Jason. Apparently, Jason said in an interview he was opposed to the fp music at first but he came around to liking it. Hmmm, old college try perhaps? No, for me, the S&G music medley for the fp is NOT Jason's vibe at all! The choreo is okay, but there's nothing exciting about it, especially being performed to the opening cuts of bland, frothy, going-nowhere music (that ironically has been muted on Youtube :duh:). Go figure that the final music cut which is more upbeat, kicks in for the last half minute or so, but by then it's too late.

David Wilson did a better job for Romsky (Roman Sadofsky) who looks to be growing into his physicality and maturity. And French skater, Kevin Aymoz, skated an absolutely mesmerizing fp to fantastically motivating and inspiring music. Romsky edged Jason for bronze, and Aymoz pulled up to third in the fp from 8th in the sp, landing in 5th overall. Jason missed the podium in fourth. It remains to be seen what this early loss may signify for Jason. I hope it signifies that Jason will rethink continuing with this 'not working' fp music selection. :drama: As far as Jason reworking jump technique and acquring the quad, that is obviously a longer term enterprise understandably. Meanwhile, he needs to maintain his competitive confidence and select music and choreo more authentic and enhancing to who he is. Jason is a great storyteller on the ice, but he has to be fully motivated by the music, and it has to be something with a lot more depth and substance.
 

Sylvia

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I love Jason's new sp and his sp costume! The music for his fp, IMHO, simply is not right for Jason. Apparently, Jason said in an interview he was opposed to the fp music at first but he came around to liking it.
Here's the relevant excerpt from Lynn Rutherford's Jason Brown article (interviewed at Champs Camp and published before Autumn Classic: https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...ason-brown-finds-50-ways-to-love-toronto.aspx
"A change of environment is absolutely what he needs, more than anything," [Rohene] Ward said. "Taking these risks and making life changes, it will totally show up in his skating. A lot of these skaters are figuring out who they are as young adults."
While Ward choreographed Brown's new short to "Love is a B****" by Two Feet, the skater worked with David Wilson on his free skate, set to a Simon and Garfunkel medley.
"I was very against it at the beginning, but I trusted them," he said. "They said, 'If you choreograph the whole thing and you want to scrap it, it's ok.' And so we choreographed the whole thing and I loved it."
 
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