U.S. Pairs 2019-20 season - News & Updates, Part X

VGThuy

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So what? You said CG/L had C/J beat in head-to-heads using BOW and that's not true. You may disagree, but it's not as if people who are arguing C/J should be sent to Worlds have no leg to stand on using BOW. And if we only send those with Worlds experience (any Worlds experience) to Worlds, then we'll just keep sending the same team(s) over and over and no one else will get experience thus creating a cyclical problem. I know that's not really what you're arguing, but the idea for some is that BOW should only be used for teams who have convincingly made their case to jump over two teams to get a Worlds spot, and some argue CG/L have not convincingly made their case this season even with their 9th place showing at Worlds 2019 and some are probably worried C/J's growth may be stunted or they may become a bit discouraged without this Worlds experience not to mention the message it sends to other pairs when they beat CG/L internationally going into Nationals thinking they actually have a shot at Worlds.
 
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VGThuy

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@aftershocks I will say you are most likely right with the USFS analyzing the past scores and thinking their best is with CG/L considering that they have the highest mean scores of the Fall season. Of course people will argue this hurts and may serve as a disincentive to teams that are peaking later and hitting their stride since humans aren't robots and sometimes, timing works for them in a way where they are ready later on and can really hit new heights. Some also argue that it puts too much emphasis on past results, which would be ok if the past results were stellar and undeniable, but some think CG/L's past results are not enough to overtake two other teams, especially one that beat them already and recently internationally, but that's another argument. The USFS is probably risk-averse now thanks to the recent past.
 

aftershocks

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You may disagree, but it's not as if people who are arguing C/J should be sent to Worlds have no leg to stand on using using BOW.
Mostly you have no leg to stand on because you and some others bellyaching here aren't actually fans of U.S. pairs, AND the decision on pairs assignments has already been made by those who were given the authority and were in the best position to make the decision.

It's not easy to make these assignment decisions and the whole BOW approach is evolving. I understand the disorientation and dislike of this process by some fans. I don't always agree with U.S. fed's decisions and/or the way they go about making their decisions. However, in this instance, I would have supported any decision that was made. I was surprised by the choice that was made, but I agree with it, and I understand it.

ETA:
I appreciate debate and discussion with the best, and sure it's not a requirement to be a U.S. pairs fan in order to have an opinion. But let's try to be judicious and reasonable at the same time. I appreciate your efforts in that direction @VGThuy. Frankly, I'm truly invested in U.S. pairs so I can understand the decision, however hard it is for some to swallow for genuine or not-so genuine reasons.
 
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Kecasyl

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Let's have no more repeats of what happened to U.S. men at the infamous 2011 delayed Worlds event in Russia when all 3 guys who were sent on a hope and a prayer and by virtue of U.S. Nats placement, had no significant senior Worlds experience or standing.
Not to make a big deal out of this or anything because it's the pairs thread, but you might want to recheck your facts on the men that went in 2011 to Worlds. Not all of the men sent were newbies to Worlds, Ryan Bradley had been to two previously, one in 2007, then 2010 (in which he was competing with a broken metatarsal in his foot), and then of course 2011.
 

VGThuy

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@aftershocks, I had a response to you but then I read your addendum. After reading that, I think it's clear you are a true fan of the discipline, and it's not easy when U.S. Pairs has been a punching bag on FSU for so long. I think you're trying to make the best out of this situation and have heavily invested in the American pairs field as a whole. I may not be the biggest fan of U.S. Pairs, or pairs in general, but I don't argue out of my ass either and I do watch American pairs and have advocated on behalf of a lot of them and during that 2018 Olympics slot thing where others made fun of Americans for caring that they lost a spot due to different Olympic quotas. I try to learn and be reasonable and I like to think anyone who does that has opinions that are worthy to be considered and I think all people who choose to participate on this forum should be encouraged to join in so long as they are coming in with good faith and not discouraged by being designated as not a real fan. I also think it's healthy to question decisions because we don't just want blind appeals to authority, especially when none of us are known for doing that in the past or will be doing so in the future.
 

aftershocks

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Not to make a big deal out of this or anything because it's the pairs thread, but you might want to recheck your facts on the men that went in 2011 to Worlds. Not all of the men sent were newbies to Worlds, Ryan Bradley had been to two previously, one in 2007, then 2010 (in which he was competing with a broken metatarsal in his foot), and then of course 2011.
Look, I know all about Ryan's previous World's trips, prior to his trip as U.S. champion in 2011. I have almost perfect recall of some past U.S. Nationals events. ;) Plus, I check out skaters' Wiki pages when I need to. In this case, I didn't need to because I remember Ryan went to Worlds before 2011 (and I've discussed this many times before, so it's old hat by now and no need to mention Ryan's previous placements which were not that high). So Voila! That's why I qualified my observation with 'no significant' Worlds experience, rather than 'no' Worlds experience when I grouped the three guys for brevity's sake. But yeah, it's so important to get into details about this in this thread. :drama:

Further discussion of U.S. men doesn't really belong here. I only used that scenario as a pertinent example that didn't go down well. I mean come on guys. You feel the way you feel. None of us is right or wrong when our emotions get involved. Let's not get tied up in knots about things that happened at U.S. Nationals and afterward that we don't like or that we don't agree with because someone else agrees with it.
 
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Kecasyl

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Look, I know all about Ryan's previous World's trips, prior to his trip as U.S. champion in 2011. I have almost perfect recall of some past U.S. Nationals events. ;) Plus, I check out skaters' Wiki pages when I need to. In this case, I didn't need to because I remember Ryan went to Worlds before 2011 (and I've discussed this many times before, so it's old hat by now and no need to mention Ryan's previous placements which were not that high). So Voila! That's why I qualified my observation with 'significant' Worlds experience, rather than 'no' Worlds experience when I grouped the three guys for brevity's sake. But yeah, it's so important to get into details about this in this thread. :drama:

Further discussion of U.S. men doesn't really belong here. I only used that scenario as a one-off example. I mean come on guys. You feel the way you feel. None of us is right or wrong when our emotions get involved. Let's not get tied up in knots about things that happened at U.S. Nationals and afterward that we don't like or that we don't agree with because someone else agrees with it.
hey, I told you no big deal but wanted to point that out because you were quoted in saying "no significant world experience" which was incorrect and which I pointed out. That will be all.

Now, back to pairs, C/J should be going to Worlds.
 

aftershocks

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hey, I told you no big deal but wanted to point that out because you were quoted in saying "no significant world experience" which was incorrect and which I pointed out. That will be all...
No big deal. I stand by 'no significant' World experience for all three U.S. men in 2011. Actually the two younger had no senior World experience, and Ryan had, yep, 'no significant' World experience, which means nothing memorable or reputable.

As I said, I know Ryan had the opportunity to compete at Worlds previous to 2011, but he made no lasting or 'significant' impression with the judges (i.e., 15th and 18th respectively; Ryan was 13th in 2011 but he arguably should have fared better, and he may have had the championships been held in Japan as anticipated; Ross and especially Richard definitely deserved better placements in 2011). The details are significant water under the bridge by now, so when referenced in passing, going for brevity was my choice -- now foiled of course. :drama:

Sadly, U.S. fed's attempts to promote Ryan as a viable World level championship or top five contender in 2011 failed miserably. But we digress...

Back to U.S. pairs discussion.

... C/J should be going to Worlds.
Ahem. All things considered, they will be and hopefully very soon. JUST NOT IN 2020.

But oh yeah, we WILL GET TO SEE C/J AT 4CCs!!! So stay tuned newbie U.S. pairs fans.

Bandwaggoners, please stay on the C/J bandwagon come rain or come shine. It's been obvious from day one that C/J are a magical pairing. I've been enjoying re-watching all of C/J's best performances this season. So what they accomplished this past week at U.S. Nationals is very special.

IMHO, I never expected C/J to be picked for Worlds in the first place. I thought it would be K/O joining the Knierims. But Ash/Timothy is not a crazy choice for a whole host of reasons. Some fans seem to be debating just for the heck of it, while others seem upset by the whole BOW considerations impacting Worlds assignments.

I can't wait to see what choice Skate Canada makes after 4CCs, but I can guess their decision won't be as controversial, just as their waiting to make the decision after 4CCs, has not been grumbled about.
 
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aftershocks

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@aftershocks I will say you are most likely right with the USFS analyzing the past scores and thinking their best is with CG/L considering that they have the highest mean scores of the Fall season. Of course people will argue this hurts and may serve as a disincentive to teams that are peaking later and hitting their stride since humans aren't robots and sometimes, timing works for them in a way where they are ready later on and can really hit new heights. Some also argue that it puts too much emphasis on past results, which would be ok if the past results were stellar and undeniable, but some think CG/L's past results are not enough to overtake two other teams, especially one that beat them already and recently internationally, but that's another argument. The USFS is probably risk-averse now thanks to the recent past.
We as fans will likely never agree with every decision made by authorities. Nor do any of us always agree with each other. That's figure skating.

As far as this decision, there's probably a lot that went into it, beyond this season's results. There's last season's results, each team's experience level as partners, and the situation with the rules and start order scenario at Worlds. As I commented earlier, it would have been cool to be a fly-on-the-wall to hear how the debate went in the assignment committee meeting room.

I bet the committee does not look at 'peaking later,' and 'hitting their stride,' as decision-making factors. The goal for skaters at U.S. Nationals has to be simply doing their best and hoping to make the podium as an end goal, without assuming they will automatically be picked for Worlds. That's the 'New Worlds Order.' Get used to it. We are not always going to like the choices, especially when the assignment decisions deviate from podium results.
 

aftershocks

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I think this is the only time these two teams have met this season and C/J came out on top.
C/J and Ash/Timothy met head-to-head twice before this year's Nationals: at U.S. International Classic (1st A&T; 6th C/J) and Skate America (5th A&T; 4th C/J, but A&T were ahead of C/J in the sp).

In addition, A&T won Golden Spin, and were 4th in France at IDF. Meanwhile, C/J won Skate Detroit and Warsaw Cup, and were 6th at Skate Canada.

At U.S. Nationals, A&T were ahead of C/J in the sp. C/J won the fp coming in 2nd overall, while A&T placed 4th overall. A&T have been together for four seasons; C/J are in their second season. A&T won U.S. Nationals last season and regained back 2 U.S. pairs spots for Worlds.
 

aftershocks

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Pushing C-G/L is holding our pairs back.
Quite the opposite, IMO. The pairing of Ash/Timothy and later of Deanna/Nate breathed more life and competitiveness into U.S. pairs at a time when the Knierims were coming back from Alexa's illness and D/F were trying to rehab and recover from Haven's seriously career-threatening knee injury, and Castelli/Tran were trying to figure out their tech stumbles and the viability of their promising but adversity-filled partnership.

The fact that they are still wobbly on lifts and that Tim lost them a whole element with the bad death spiral speaks to the fact that they haven't developed as was anticipated...
Your comments are exaggerated and short-sighted. As usual, a lot of this fan grumbling is based on what happened five minutes ago, rather than taking a longer, more judicious and thoughtful view. Ash & Timothy came out smokin' this season with noticeable improvements since 2019 Worlds. The fact they faltered a bit this season under huge expectations (their own, and the fs fandom's) does not mean they aren't 'developing as anticipated.' It's too soon and too simplistic to reach that conclusion.

It's funny how some fans were touting A&T for possibly having the chance to win gold at both their GP events. Their stock with some fans has suffered due to them not living up to those expectations. And apparently, their bounce back win at Golden Spin, has not so far helped win back many fan defectors.
 

hoptoad

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But they have to get out there and practice their new technique under pressure. My guess is that they land a higher % at home but are reverting to old technique under pressure when they are nervous so they have to practice it. Similar to Jason who wants to get out there as much as he can.
Yes! ITA. I was coming at it from the perspective of getting all four teams a shot at ISU championship points, since who knows which team(s) will be most competitive next year or the year after.

I think Knierims and Cal/Joh both deserved the Worlds assignment, so if Kayne/O and Cain/LD were both going to 4Cs one of the Knierims or Cal/Joh would have to sit out 4C. I just think Cal/Joh need the experience and exposure to the judges much more at this point than Knierims.

Honestly, I had about given up on the Knierims, but Raf says he needs about two years to produce results with jumps, so we'll see.

I feel a little bad about not being very into Kayne/O. I know they work super hard, like all the pairs and have suffered some serious setbacks. It seems to me they need careful choreography to hide her skating weaknesses. They can sell a warhorse program, maybe they can sell something a little different next year. And hopefully improve their overall skating too.
 

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