U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[aftershocks]

they had plenty of time to at least come out with 1 new program vs repeating two programs

They did come up with two new programs, right? And neither of them worked well enough, after they had come off of an illness and rehab-shortened competitive season. Or, they weren't comfortable enough with the choreo. Originally, they had a fp by Chris Dean, right? Or were they always planning to keep the Ghost fp?

ETA:
Listening to Alexa & Chris on recent IceTalk is revealing. They basically had 'family matters' to take care of in the first part of the off-season (Alexa said). So they didn't start getting their new music and choreo till July. And obviously neither new program was completely comfortable for them. That's a short timeframe for new programs for the Olympics season, especially since both programs from last season were not able to be fully explored. I don't see any problem with them bringing both programs back. Alexa sounds happy and grounded, and very grateful for all she's learned in the last year and a half.

Fun broadcast with Alexa doing most of the talking, unsurprisingly (although Chris chipped in more toward the end). They discuss the process of developing the quad-twist and where they are with it now. Plus a funny anecdote involving a former press conference with James/Cipres and Tat/Max. http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk

It's funny when they explain how they decided to go back to Come What May. They didn't go straight back to it. And the process of creating something with Rohene in the first place was not smooth, so there were several sps they considered using prior to going back to Come What May.

 

[Cleo1782]

I prefer the Knierims' sappy programs to Metallica. I thought the faces in Metallica were too OTT. Their "Rise Up" exhibition was their best program for me.

I loved their Metallica. Paint it Black could have been good. The cover was bad and they looked so stumbly and lost in it at US Classic, but it had potential. I hate their sappy programs. I don't think it really plays to their strengths even though they are married.

 

[AKA]

Any idea on junior and novice names? Did Kate Finster split? So many new teams this year it seems.

 

[Cleo1782]

Any idea on junior and novice names? Did Kate Finster split? So many new teams this year it seems.

The only team I know of that split and both quit skating was last years novice pair champs Coleman/Griffin.

 

[Sylvia]

Any idea on junior and novice names? Did Kate Finster split? So many new teams this year it seems.

https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/

 

[pairskatingfan]

The only team I know of that split and both quit skating was last years novice pair champs Coleman/Griffin.

Did they both quit? Griffin was skating with Kate Finster earlier this season.

 

[Cleo1782]

Did they both quit? Griffin was skating with Kate Finster earlier this season.

I heard they both quit, but that could be wrong info. Coleman quit. But since Finster/Griffin are still in the ISP I may have spoke too soon. My apologies.

 

[Bellanca]

The most important thing at the moment is for teams to stick together through thick and thin (the splitsville hemorraghing/ recurrent partner-switching has to stop).

Yes, absolutely, this remains a persistent problem. I think the rush to have immediate, positive results and notable success interfere with building a solid partnership. Teams are seeking instant gratification without delay and not exercising enough patience to build the foundation to get there. Of course, sometimes, personality conflicts, a lack of chemistry, an odd fit, all factor into a teams lack of success, but mostly, a setback is due in (large) part to a teams impatience to stick it out and make it work. This harried approach permeates throughout the entire program in a very telling and negative way.

 

[aftershocks]

Judges are so harsh on skaters without rep status. Yes Ash & Timothy can't afford any tech mistakes, but they deserve higher scores on PCS. That was a lowball score. They should have been scored higher on composition and interpretation.

 

[Cleo1782]

Judges are so harsh on skaters without rep status. Yes Ash & Timothy can't afford any tech mistakes, but they deserve higher scores on PCS. That was a lowball score. They should have been scored higher on composition and interpretation.

Perhaps Ashley and Tim should go back to sbs 3sals? They have really nice ones and they (she) seem to struggle getting the rotation on the more difficult sbs. I don't know how much it would have effected their placement, but at least it would be in the judges minds that they can complete them. Tbh, right now all the US pairs need to do is land their elements cleanly. I don't think it's necessary to go for the most difficult jumps right now. Any mistake is basically going to bury them.

 

[chachacha]

Perhaps Ashley and Tim should go back to sbs 3sals? They have really nice ones and they (she) seem to struggle getting the rotation on the more difficult sbs. I don't know how much it would have effected their placement, but at least it would be in the judges minds that they can complete them. Tbh, right now all the US pairs need to do is land their elements cleanly. I don't think it's necessary to go for the most difficult jumps right now. Any mistake is basically going to bury them.

They probably go for the harder jumps because they know if they hit them they will get higher points since most of the US Pairs SBS Jumps are questionable, even though Ashley tends to get under rotations when she does stand up on them, but that was an issue she had when she was a singles skater too. The issue with Ashley and Tim is that their Pair Elements are weak so when their is a mistake on their SBS Jumps they will not score well. There twist and lifts are quite weak, however their throw today was an improvement and I'm sure as the season goes on they will improve. With Ashley being taller then most pair girls it is going to be difficult for them to score well on the twist and lifts. So, I'm sure they are trying to maximize the points with there SBS Jumps which is there strength.

 

[skatingguy]

I thought Can/Leduc's throw lutz was better here than previously. She did well to hold the landing and not break at the waist as much as in previous competitions.

 

[Cleo1782]

They probably go for the harder jumps because they know if they hit them they will get higher points since most of the US Pairs SBS Jumps are questionable, even though Ashley tends to get under rotations when she does stand up on them, but that was an issue she had when she was a singles skater too. The issue with Ashley and Tim is that their Pair Elements are weak so when their is a mistake on their SBS Jumps they will not score well. There twist and lifts are quite weak, however their throw today was an improvement and I'm sure as the season goes on they will improve. With Ashley being taller then most pair girls it is going to be difficult for them to score well on the twist and lifts. So, I'm sure they are trying to maximize the points with there SBS Jumps which is there strength.

But unfortunately the sbs jumps haven't been their strength this year. I know why they do it, but at this point I would scrap it and go for the sal which usually Ashley can get the rotation on. There are two schools of thought- high risk, high reward with a potential for disaster or go easier and clean. I think in their situation it may be at the place where they should just try to go clean and then build up to the loop or flip so they can concentrate on the pair elements. Or perhaps unveil these harder tricks next year. Just my thoughts......I certainly am not their coach and don't know what is best for them.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I thought Can/Leduc's throw lutz was better here than previously. She did well to hold the landing and not break at the waist as much as in previous competitions.

Totes, and she didnt put her hand down on that throw.

Them being singles skaters is usually hyped, but she has a hard time landing one clean jump every time in the SP... I don't know what to think of them now....

And I know they are new together but because they are similar in height I know I shouldn't expect a better twist any time soon.

 

[Cleo1782]

Totes, and she didnt put her hand down on that throw.

Them being singles skaters is usually hyped, but she has a hard time landing one clean jump every time in the SP... I don't know what to think of them now....

And I know they are new together but because they are similar in height I know I shouldn't expect a better twist any time soon.

I look at the twist this way. Obviously their height goes against them so it will never be Aliona level, but Tim had a really strong twist with Deedee while Cain had a really poor double twist with Josh, so I see the possibility of it improving. I think best hope would be a level 2 with a clean catch and 0 or +1 Goe

 

[aftershocks]

Perhaps Ashley and Tim should go back to sbs 3sals? They have really nice ones and they (she) seem to struggle getting the rotation on the more difficult sbs. I don't know how much it would have effected their placement, but at least it would be in the judges minds that they can complete them. Tbh, right now all the US pairs need to do is land their elements cleanly. I don't think it's necessary to go for the most difficult jumps right now. Any mistake is basically going to bury them.

True. C/L have to think strategically with an awareness of how unfair and political the judging system can be. They are clearly faster, more expressive and mature, and have better lines than the 3rd Chinese pair the judges decided to tie them with. The little known Chinese pair are clearly still juniorish, slow (lacking in good choreo and style at this point), with poor aesthetics, despite their traditional very good Chinese acrobatic technical skills (great 3-twist and good height on their throw-3-jump despite not having good flow out on the landing in sp).

Even with a clean program, C/L most likely would have been kept just below 60 pts in sp. I suppose C/L wished to gain more pts and a competitive edge with the 3-loop which they have landed well in the past. It's been said that URs are usually due to nerves, not lack of tech and rotational ability. But I agree with you that C/L need to gain confidence, levels and consistency at this point with all their tech skills, so going with the 3-salchow sbs jumps to place solidly in the sp might have been advisable. That's the problem as I've said previously with good teams on the rise in their sophomore year during an Olympic season who are trying to make a statement by rapidly acquiring more difficult skills. It's tough, especially as a relatively new team trying to meld and make some noise after showing promise in their first season. S-D/B are facing the same challenges.

 

[Cleo1782]

True. C/L have to think strategically with an awareness of how unfair and political the judging system can be. They are clearly faster, more expressive and mature, and have better lines than the 3rd Chinese pair the judges decided to tie them with. The little known Chinese pair are clearly still juniorish, slow (lacking in good choreo and style at this point), with poor aesthetics, despite their traditional very good Chinese acrobatic technical skills (great 3-twist and good height on their throw-3-jump despite not having good flow out on the landing in sp).

Even with a clean program, C/L most likely would have been kept just below 60 pts in sp. I suppose C/L wished to gain more pts and a competitive edge with the 3-loop which they have landed well in the past. It's been said that URs are usually due to nerves, not lack of tech and rotational ability. But I agree with you that C/L need to gain confidence, levels and consistency at this point with all their tech skills, so going with the 3-salchow sbs jumps to place solidly in the sp might have been advisable. That's the problem as I've said previously with good teams on the rise in their sophomore year during an Olympic season who are trying to make a statement by rapidly acquiring more difficult skills. It's tough, especially as a relatively new team trying to meld and make some noise after showing promise in their first season. S-D/B are facing the same challenges.

Correct. It's looks like Deanna and Nate are scaling back to the 3 toe for the short for now to help the overall performance because it's easier for them. They both can do the lutz so I think it's nerves as well. IMO, if it's not working scrap it until you can build that confidence in everything else and up your game later. Being last at a GP is not going to help anyone's cause, but being 5th or 6th with 2 quality performances will.

 

[aftershocks]

To be absolutely honest, I have no idea why it isn't a requirement for pairs teams to train more extensively off-ice in ballet to acquire more stretch, grace, and the aesthetic provenance that is so highly regarded in this sport. The other thing too is to spend way more time practicing figures in order to improve skating skills (lean, edge control and speed), which can make skating look more effortless.

C/L actually do have a wonderful graceful quality and awareness over the ice, but they still need to beef it up further. And they especially need to improve those skating skills, which would make a huge difference I think. Most likely the emphasis is on getting the tech elements down pat. But I think the skating skills and ballet training for U.S. pairs should receive equal importance. Taking ballet training does not mean you have to present a ballet style on the ice. Look at it this way, all professional dancers today need to study ballet in order to improve their technique, stretch and facility in other dance styles, including modern and jazz.

Most likely Nina Mozer is working with C/L mainly on improving their technique on throw jumps, sbs jumps and throw 3-twist. But the skating skills and ballet training are also key, IMHO. Don't you agree @Cleo1782? As far as Russian pairs coaches, I would prefer Moskvina, but then wouldn't everyone?

 

[Cleo1782]

To be absolutely honest, I have no idea why it isn't a requirement for pairs teams to train more extensively off-ice in ballet to acquire more stretch, grace, and the aesthetic provenance that is so highly regarded in this sport. The other thing too is to spend way more time practicing figures in order to improve skating skills (edge control and speed), which can make skating look more effortless.

C/L actually do have a wonderful graceful quality and awareness over the ice, but they still need to beef it up further. And they especially need to improve those skating skills, which would make a huge difference I think. Most likely the emphasis is on getting the tech elements down pat. But I think the skating skills and ballet training for U.S. pairs should receive equal importance. Taking ballet training does not mean you have to present a ballet style on the ice. Look at it this way, all professional dancers today need to study ballet in order to improve their technique, stretch and facility in other dance styles, including modern and jazz.

I would assume it's a lack of time and funding. These skaters are already paying so much out of pocket to skate alone. They have to pick and choose what they have time for and can afford. Most teams that I know of do some type of ballet/dance/off ice workout training. Bringing figures into it is hard. There aren't an abundance of figure skating coaches who teach figures and their isn't ice time for it at most rinks.
I also have no idea truly what capacity Mozer is helping C/L. I know they spent time training with her, but I would feel like an actual move to Moskvina or Mozer would be the real solution, although that won't happen. And even if it did it happen they would likely be low on the coaches priority list.

 

[aftershocks]

I would assume it's a lack of time and funding. These skaters are already paying so much out of pocket to skate alone. They have to pick and choose what they have time for and can afford. Most teams that I know of do some type of ballet/dance/off ice workout training. Bringing figures into it is hard. There aren't an abundance of figure skating coaches who teach figures and their isn't ice time for it at most rinks.

Thanks. I knew I could rely upon you to bring some answers and perspective to the discussion. What a shame though. With this reality in mind, what the heck are we fans complaining about or expecting? Under such circumstances, whatever U.S. skaters accomplish is gravy. This situation needs to be kept in mind when fans haul off with the negative comments and 'not good enough' slams.

I know it's hard to lower our expectations, but wow, with these limiting choices based on what they can afford, our pairs teams are just going to continue to struggle for the most part unless they get lucky somehow. Oh my, that's too much to expect for our pairs skaters to improve substantially if they can't spend more time on the type of training that could make the most difference, not to mention receiving increased competitive opportunities. They may slowly improve their elements by majorly focusing on them, but they also need to find a way to improve skating skills without having to pay huge sums for ice time and figures. I can understand paying a bit less attention to ballet studio practice, but I think if the importance of ballet exercise was better understood and appreciated, there might be ways to incorporate more time for it in training schedules. If not, then okay the elements come first, but the skating skills also need to come first because improving SS can help skaters finesse the technique.

And if this is the reality then, the playing field is far from leveled and some teams (with government funding and backing) will always dominate. But we kinda know this already. Just to get basic training is a struggle for so many skaters, especially those who are on the cusp of the lower and mid-levels trying to work their way up. Even well known accomplished skaters in the U.S. who do not have access to unlimited resources struggle to pay for their training, costumes, travel expenses, coaching, choreography, etc., every season.

 

[HeManSkaterDad]

Yes, absolutely, this remains a persistent problem. I think the rush to have immediate, positive results and notable success interfere with building a solid partnership. Teams are seeking instant gratification without delay and not exercising enough patience to build the foundation to get there. Of course, sometimes, personality conflicts, a lack of chemistry, an odd fit, all factor into a teams lack of success, but mostly, a setback is due in (large) part to a teams impatience to stick it out and make it work. This harried approach permeates throughout the entire program in a very telling and negative way.

I have typed essentially the same comments a few times, but did not post thinking maybe it was just me. Too many teams, especially below senior, get together for quick success (a national medal at a lower level, followed by an international assignment), but have no realistic chance of being a succesful long-term team. By itself, if it gets more skaters doing pairs, it could be a good thing. But IMHO,it takes years to develop real chemistry and build an international reputation, so if the short-term team discourages the long term potential team from continuing (or encourages them to partner-hop), it is a lose-lose.

Of course, that sounds great in theory, but how do we determine short term or long term? There is no hard and fast rules, but there are certainly some indicators, such as age differential, age (number of years of JGP eligibility), location and willingness to relocate, history (multiple partner swaps) and I am sure a little brain-storming would yield more.

Perhaps something as simple as a guideline that they will not send any team to an international unless it has been together at least two seasons (and to avoid the injury/retirement hard case, an exception for a skater that has competed in pairs for a minimum number of seasons and loses a partner thru no fault of his/her own) and have achieved a verifiable minimum technical score (similar to the ISU).

This may mean a few less international assignments for a few years, but I would rather see USFS spend it limited funds on more 'pairs camps' spread around the country and more often instead of sending weak and/or minimal potential teams to internationals (far too often finishing in the bottom half). This is also a much more economical way to develop an overall strong program, as the cost of sending one minimal prospect team to an international will cover the cost of renting a rink for a pairs camp weekend for developing teams. Which is more likely to pay longer term dividends?

 

[SCeline]

Listened to the Knierem's Icenetwork Icetalk podcast interview. Really appreciated the candor and honesty. "Resilience" as a touchstone theme for their career, especially during the past few seasons, is the correct descriptor used by Jackie Wong during his interview with them. They're not taking anything for granted. Have such a mature perspective. Wishing them well this season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Castelli/Tran have been added to Internationale de France for their second GP:
http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/gp-6/series-files-10/entries/7517-gp-pairs/file

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Just watched Knierims sp

Well they look great. The twist was out of this world. This program needs much more of emotional or artistic punch

They mention before they are married and want to show their relationship or love story. Well they need to show it more

I love watching their twist

If She's feeling healthy though they need to bring the quad.

 

[olympic]

But, always the same SBS jump issues. Always.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

But, always the same SBS jump issues. Always.

I know..... I did not want to say it. It looked like he had that jump and then almost sat down on it. I watched his jump five times now and I can't see anything wrong with it and the air or on first touch of the landing

 

[pairskatingfan]

If She's feeling healthy though they need to bring the quad.

Quad isn't allowed in the short anyways.

 

[aftershocks]

On the Olympic channel commentary, Ryan Bradley explained the technical detail that caused Chris to fall out of the jump and turn out. As Chris was lifting into the jump, he turned his head to the left, which Ryan says "makes it difficult to get your weight over the right foot as you transition from the left foot to the right. If something is just a little bit off, there's not enough time to make adjustments in the air..." Possibly Chris and Sappenfield are aware of this? But it's one thing to know the problem and another thing to sufficiently correct it in action? Ryan praises Chris for staying on his feet. But to me, Chris seems to make the same or a similar mistake every time on those sbs jumps. Probably Chris' height is also a factor. But why can't he get some tips from other tall male skaters like Peter Oppegard, Todd Sand, and Robin Cousins?

Certainly, Chris and Alexa are a nice looking pair, and granted they are coming back from Alexa's health issues, but I don't really see a lot that distinguishes them as the best the U.S. has to offer, aside from their favored status and the rep they established for their quad twist prior to Alexa's illness. It's probably still up-in-the-air () as to whether they might be able to flash their quad-twist at the Olympics. They have spoken about possibly bringing the quad-twist back later in the season, so maybe they'll show it at U.S. Nationals in gearing up for the Olympics. It might be nice to see their quad twist again, if Alexa is in good enough shape. However, I'd rather see Chris making solid improvements in his sbs jump technique!

As the favored U.S. team, Alexa/Chris seemingly are automatically received and perceived by international judges better than other U.S. teams overall. Of course, no other U.S. team has made a strong case for themselves on the ice this season either, aside from Denney/Frazier in the sp at SC. So, that does leave Alexa/Chris as top-favored U.S. team. But I wouldn't call them the best. They are just right now the U.S. team with the most rep status. If one or more of the other viable teams could put something together to help up the ante for some competitiveness at U.S. Nationals, at the very least that would give Alexa/Chris something more to battle for. I don't know what the answers are, but the political-based assumptions are off-putting. I don't blame Alexa/Chris for this 'favored' state of affairs, but I hope that at least they can show more improvement with cleanly landing their sbs jumps as a targeted goal!

I would agree with the observation that Alexa/Chris need a bit more excitement to their skating. They are really cool people, but I've never been a huge fan of their skating. I do recognize that their elements are generally crisp and they've shown some aesthetic improvements. Alexa is more solid on the sbs jumps than Chris, and Alexa gets good height and distance on the throw jumps. Their throw twist is spectacular whether a triple or a quad, and so that's their money move. Obviously the throw quad twist is a huge asset and the major calling card which set them up a few years ago for the rep status they currently receive from international judges, as the favored U.S. pair team. They received a very good 65+ sp score from the judges at NHK, especially after Chris' fallout on the sbs jump. Ryan B suggesting that Alexa/Chris are anywhere close right now to knocking on elite tier territory of 70+ is unfortunately wishful thinking.

I personally feel that D/F have quite lovely elements too, but they've been slowed in their progress by Haven's rehabilitation after her serious knee injury and surgery. Kayne/O'Shea had strong consistency as their calling card until Tarah's nagging overuse injury and subsequent surgery, not to mention the concussion she suffered at 2017 U.S. Nats. Bottom line, without the injuries, surgeries and illness, the U.S.'s top teams would be in a better position to battle it out more strongly against each other at least. Above average competitiveness at home is the first step toward building high level competitiveness and consistency internationally.

The newest up-and-coming U.S. teams, Cain/LeDuc and Stellato/Bartholomay, are dealing with growing pains and sophomore blues in an Olympic year, but both teams have shown promise. Also, Castelli/Tran could definitely challenge, if not for poor rep caused by their ongoing variant jump technique & timing difficulties, as well as the citizenship obstacle which takes time to resolve. Beyond that there are other good-looking U.S. teams, but no one has yet been able to set anything into high gear with improved technique, exciting programs, and consistent performances. The Knierims and D/F were making a bit of noise in that direction, prior to their setbacks. And it takes time to rebuild, especially when the overall pairs program in the U.S. is so lacking. IMO, it's not a lack of talent. It's a lack of resources, a lack of high level coaching, a lack of good teams staying together, and a lack of effective strategic guidance. Added to those deficiencies is a need for more brilliant packaging (music, concept, chore, & costuming).

Perhaps John Zimmerman's coaching/choreography team in Florida and eventually Brubaker/Berton in Chicago can make a unique difference that helps push the other U.S. pairs training camps (Jim Peterson-FL, Dalilah Sappenfield-CO, Meno/Sand-CA, and Bobby Martin-MA) to significantly up the excellence of their programs. I think it will take a more concerted effort though by U.S. fed to become fully engaged with finding solutions to help improve and advance the competitiveness of the U.S. pairs discipline. It's one thing to hold summer training camps and to solicit the assistance of a successful international coach for a promising team. That's piecemeal attempts to catch-up though, and it's simply not enough to make a dent over the long term, nor even the short term so far.

 

[pairskatingfan]

^^ You referred to D/F having a great short at RC.. They did not compete there? Perhaps you are talking about their short in Skate Canada, where they skated relatively well despite an underrotation on their triple salchows.

I think it would take a lot to upend the Knierims at this point for any pair team. What are the criteria they are looking at this year? Last year's US nationals, 4CC, Worlds, GPs and Challengers from this season and this year's Nationals?
Obviously they did not compete at US Nats last year, but they finished clear ahead of D/F and C/L at 4CC and obviously ahead of D/F at World's too. At SLC CS they scored a huge score considering they didn't execute any jumps. They are scoring much higher than any other American team at this point, even when they make mistakes. Although they will not challenge for a medal in South Korea, sending anyone else would be a silly thing to do considering the Team Event.

If any other Americans were to make the Olympic team it would require either an injury by the Kneirims or a complete rebirth by one of our teams to improve drastically. I don't see it happening. PS does Bobby Martin have any international teams so that we should still consider his camp one of the top "camps" in the US for pairs?

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks, I didn't check to make sure where D/F competed recently. I did mean at D/F's most recent GP event, so I'll make the correction.

I'm not thinking of nor expecting other teams to 'up-end' the Knierims. As I said, it would just be beneficial if U.S. teams could be in good enough form to at least make it exciting and to put up some kind of battle, rather than a lame and boring roll-over. Quality competition domestically is important for teams to improve and to enhance their strengths.

I laid out the situation that we all know exists: illness, injury and coming back from surgeries have hampered our top teams and slowed their momentum. New teams are trying to get better. And veteran teams are rebuilding. The Knierims had achieved rep status internationally prior to Alexa's illness, and so that rep combined with being favored by U.S. fed holds them in good stead. Plus the Knierims did well to perform as best they could at Worlds 2017 while not at full strength.

Still, that's no reason to look down our noses at other U.S. teams. But clearly all of the U.S. teams need to step it up a notch. Under the circumstances, I'm sure they are all trying their best with the resources and training that's available to them.

I'm familiar with Bobby Martin, and he did previously train one of the U.S.'s top teams in the former Castelli/Shnapir. I don't know much about how the Boston pairs program is currently rated and regarded in comparison to other camps. I'm just assessing what the current state of affairs appears to be. Anyone with better information and analysis, please do chip in.