U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Quad isn't allowed in the short anyways.

From the free score there was no quad.... or apparently SBS jumps either....... ohhhhhh shaddddeeee

Seriously teams improved their scores and Knierims have identical scores from September US Classic. With recycled stuff you would think scores would be higher

Their first competitions back last season was 4 cc and they still haven't competed to that level yet. What happened all summer? Was Mozer a help at all? Arrrgghhhh

With 65 and 126 maybe their berth isn't guaranteed

Can we do what China fed did and put Alexa with Tim......

Sorry, not sorry.... maybe

I love me some Chris but AngieNikodinovLove has been more than patient.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Okkkkkk so just watched the free from my starbux in Berlin.

They are just stunnnnnniinnnnnngggggg on the ice. These costumes ARE SOOOOO MY TASTE. best outfits I've seen in figure skating for a while. The soft purple and silver/ grey are sooooo my taste.

Of course it all came down to his jumps. You would think he had been the injured one. Are his jumps what are really suppressing the score?

I'm surprised the score wasn't higher. The twist and those throws are WORLD CLASS.

surprised they have never had good SBS spins when their combo is so good

Sigh..... Where's @clairecloutier when I need her?

Added later. I just watched stolbova& klimov. Knierims have higher and farther throws and a MUCH better twist than them. Are they at least out scoring Stolbova & Klimov in those elements???? Stolbova seems to only be thrown like 4 feet in the throw in the first one.

Klimov also pulled a Chris Knierim on his jump too so why is their technical that high?...

I think they should score higher on PCS but not on technical.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

There's a series of vids about what skaters would tell they're younger selves on YouTube. Knierims is nice.

I love Alexis style her hair and outfit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dB7tdxrQcmA

 

[Tesla]

With 65 and 126 maybe their berth isn't guaranteed

What? They scored 192.51. No other US pair has come close to that. All of the other pairs are competing for the 2nd Worlds spot. It would be idiotic to leave S-K/K off the Olympic team.

ETA And for the record, their scores improved a lot since US Classic. https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/

 

[Spiralgraph]

^^^ Idiotic perhaps, but I'm not in favor of anointing champions before they actually win nationals. The Knierems and any other USA pair can just as easily have a splat fest at nationals. If they want to be at the Olympics they better learn how to land their jumps. In my opinion no American team should have the advantage going in. All our teams are mediocre and rarely excel.

 

[oleada]

Honestly, it would take a complete Phoenix like rise from the ashes from another team to convince me to send them to Korea over the Knierims. I think the USFS should buy their tickets already; it would be foolish to send anyone else. I mean, they still can't jump but their other elements are quality. The throws were particularly great yesterday.

Which reminds me. At SC and CoC, the US teams had the lowest TES in the FS (and in the SP are CoC). I know Ashley was sick but having lower TES than brand new and/or unheard of Canadian and Chinese teams is really not great. Obviously the jumps are an issue but it looks like they're also not getting the levels on easier elements (I wanna say that D/F had a level 2 death spiral, but I'm on my phone right now) or not getting good GOE on the pairs elements. That's just absolutely kills their score and they don't have much of a cushion already with them SBS jumps issues...

I don't think we've had a single clean jump element by any of the pairs in the GP this season so far which is just

 

[olympic]

Regarding SK/K, I watched their LP live on the Olympic Channel late last night.

On the plus side, big twist, throws and lifts. Chris's movement across the ice has improved significantly over the past year or so: Straighter back and more expression. I also hope they can get the quad twist back by February. It will certainly help their score.

Yet, I can't wrap my head around the constant failure on the SBS jumps though, but it's a similar story for US pair teams generally. BTW, they may have been able to stay ahead of S/B for 4th if they had completed a clean set of 2As instead of the aborted 3Ts

 

[B.Cooper]

Regarding SK/K, I watched their LP live on the Olympic Channel late last night.

On the plus side, big twist, throws and lifts. Chris's movement across the ice has improved significantly over the past year or so: Straighter back and more expression. I also hope they can get the quad twist back by February. It will certainly help their score.

Yet, I can't wrap my head around the constant failure on the SBS jumps though, but it's a similar story for US pair teams generally. BTW, they may have been able to stay ahead of S/B for 4th if they had completed a clean set of 2As instead of the aborted 3Ts

I agree with the comment on the SBS jumps. SK/K train in Colorado Springs, at the same rink where one of the foremost US jump coaches, Tom Zakrajsek coaches. Why USFS does not mandate that they work with Zakrajsek daily is beyond me.

 

[flyingsit]

Chris just may not be capable of consistent triples. Not every skater is.

 

[chachacha]

^^^ Idiotic perhaps, but I'm not in favor of anointing champions before they actually win nationals. The Knierems and any other USA pair can just as easily have a splat fest at nationals. If they want to be at the Olympics they better learn how to land their jumps. In my opinion no American team should have the advantage going in. All our teams are mediocre and rarely excel.

Totally in agreement with you on that. Unfortunately, at this point the USA has no other options but to send the team with the most political pull Internationally to the Olympics, which is the Knierims. I am a fan of Alexa and Chris, but watching NHK, I'm not overwhelmed by the programs they put out and they continue to not be able to land SBS Jumps and I'm not a fan of there short program. They really can't keep using Alexa's illness as excuses anymore because Alexa hits her Jumps usually even after her terrible illness, it's really Chris who can't jump on that Team. He struggled when they used to do double axles. To now see them continue to struggle after having the off season to train, they don't look like they have progressed and frankly are held up strictly on being favored by USFSA and of course their World's Performance. But that will only hold you up for so long. Fortunately, for the Knierims their is no other US Team that is close to their international reputation and political pull, so they can afford to show up and have multiple mistakes, perform double jumps and at this point will still be named to the Olympic Team and be the US National Champions. Although, I do disagree when Judges and Federations already know who the winner will be as it does not make the skating event at National exciting to watch. But fortunately I am a Big Fan of Alexa and Chris so I know I will be happy to see them get the opportunity to go to the Olympics even though none of the US Pair Teams, including Alexa and Chris will not have a huge impact in the TEAM Event, since none of the US Pair Teams will be able to overcome the other top Pair Teams during the Team Event anyways and it will be the other disciplines that hold up Team USA. However, for the next quad, hopefully some of the other US Teams can make some improvements. It will take a long time before a team can compete with the TOP Teams in the World. I Think now with Tarah no longer having her knee issue, hopefully she and Danny can come back and be stronger then ever. Ashley and Tim, well I think perhaps Tim might want to try to find someone to skate Pairs with into the next quad where they can not only have the jumping, but also big pair elements. Ashley is a beautiful skater, but she is tall, the Pair elements are where they will struggle and that's why they call the discipline "Pairs". I don't see Deanna and Nathan going another 4 years either, maybe one or two more. Denney/Frazier, well, I think no matter how well they skate they are never going to be viewed very high politically after their Worlds performance and certainly they don't seem to have many fans really either, so who knows if they will even keep going after this season, I hope they do, but time will tell. Lets just hope some young Junior Teams start meshing and make a good transition into the Senior Ranks. But at this point, Knierims are the team for the 2018 Olympic Team and I know that I will be cheering them on and Dalilah Sappenfield will finally make her 1st coaching debut at the Olympics. I am however, liking how the USA Men's and Ladies are bringing their A game and it will for sure be a fight for who makes the Olympic Team in those disciplines.

 

[Cleo1782]

Chris just may not be capable of consistent triples. Not every skater is.

I would agree that I don't think Chris is capable of consistent of triples. He is all legs and not in a good way. It doesn't seem conducive to jumping and with time and age it has just gotten worse. I think they have a chance with a 2A and a 3 sal, but I don't think the 3 toe is happening. Have they ever done it with positive GOE?

 

[Sylvia]

SK/K landed both 3S and 3T+2T cleanly in their 2016 4CC free skate (where they set their ISU PB scores in FS & total): http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/fc2016/fc2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[Sylvia]

These are the Novice-Senior pairs scheduled to compete at Sectionals next week (compiled from Official Practice Groups documents):

SENIOR
E (2): J Esposito/R Newby-Estrella, A Timlen/J Highgate-Brutman
M (1): C Fields/E Stevens
P: none

JUNIOR
E (3): S Rose/I Meyh, J Smart/M Addison, N Wang/S Howe [Kopmar/Barrett have elected not to compete]
M (5): C DeWyre/J Nussle, EG Hanns/K Ogren, L Lockley/K Prochnow, A Lu/M Mitrofanov, E Secunda/B Eisenach
P (5): J Erickson/N Grundhofer, S Feng/TJ Nyman, M Findley/M Rounis, S Jaeckel/M Scoralle, A Peterson/G Schwab

NOVICE
E (6): G Bush/T Chapman, S Cooke/N Rensing, J Hom/FP Jerosch, J Hubbart/W Hubbart, E McClellan/J Garbutt, P Ruggeri/CA Singletary
M (6): H Asher/N Dennler, L Ball/S Dudley, S Burden/J Pagano, I Goldstein/K Bearinger, I Martins/R Bedard, M Mokhov/I Mokhov
P (3*): J Fendi/J Fendi, A Haywood/A Schmitt, M Markin/M Essigmann

*IF only 3 Novice pairs are registered at Pacific Coast Sectionals, then I believe 5 pairs should advance from both Easterns & Mids (needs to be confirmed).

Intermediate & Juvenile pairs are included in my blog (link in Tesla's post above).

 

[Cleo1782]

SK/K landed both 3S and 3T+2T cleanly in their 2016 4CC free skate (where they set their ISU PB scores in FS & total): http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/fc2016/fc2016_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Well, I guess if they landed it one time almost two years ago they should keep it in forever.

 

[clairecloutier]

Interesting article about Cain/LeDuc from a Dallas LGBT news source:

https://www.dallasvoice.com/breaking-the-ice-10245465.html

 

[semogal]

Does Zimmerman have any US Pairs? I think D/F were at their best under his tutelage. I would like to see what John and his team could do with Chris and Alexa but I know they will never leave Dalilah

 

[Cleo1782]

Does Zimmerman have any US Pairs? I think D/F were at their best under his tutelage. I would like to see what John and his team could do with Chris and Alexa but I know they will never leave Dalilah

No, I don't believe he has any US pair teams perhaps at the lower level? But no senior or junior teams.

 

[Sylvia]

Does Zimmerman have any US Pairs?

Zimmerman, Silvia Fontana & Jeremy Barrett coached the 2017 Novice Pairs champions but they split after Nationals and Derrick Griffin paired up with Kate Finster. F/G competed in Junior at Skate Detroit but they are not listed for Sectionals so I assume they have either split or are injured. I believe the Hubbart siblings moved to them this past summer: JoJo & William are scheduled to compete in Novice and Nicholas (new to pairs) in Intermediate with Zoe Larson at Easterns next week.

 

[Cleo1782]

Zimmerman, Silvia Fontana & Jeremy Barrett coached the 2017 Novice Pairs champions but they split after Nationals and Derrick Griffin paired up with Kate Finster. F/G competed in Junior at Skate Detroit but they are not listed for Sectionals so I assume they have either split or are injured. I believe the Hubbart siblings moved to them this past summer: JoJo & William are scheduled to compete in Novice and Nicholas (new to pairs) in Intermediate with Zoe Larson at Easterns next week.

Griffin (as of now) has quit skating all together. As I said, I thought he had a couple of lower level teams, but no junior or senior teams. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[LilJen]

Does Zimmerman have any US Pairs? I think D/F were at their best under his tutelage. I would like to see what John and his team could do with Chris and Alexa but I know they will never leave Dalilah

I kind of wish Marissa and Mervin would try him/his team. . . I think Mervin is very tied to his Canadian coaches, but maybe it's time to try something different?

 

[aftershocks]

I would agree that I don't think Chris is capable of consistent of triples. He is all legs and not in a good way. It doesn't seem conducive to jumping and with time and age it has just gotten worse. I think they have a chance with a 2A and a 3 sal, but I don't think the 3 toe is happening. Have they ever done it with positive GOE?

Sure, but who if anyone have Dalilah's team contacted to try and help Chris? As I suggested earlier, what about Chris receiving some tips from top male coaches who are tall and who are also former skaters like Peter Oppegard, Todd Sand, and John Zimmerman? And as someone mentioned earlier, Tom Z, who is a jump coach who works at their same rink? What extra efforts have been made, if any, exactly?

 

[Cleo1782]

Sure, but who if anyone have Dalilah's team contacted to try and help Chris? As I suggested earlier, what about Chris receiving some tips from top male coaches who are tall and who are also former skaters like Peter Oppegard, Todd Sand, and John Zimmerman? And as someone mentioned earlier, Tom Z, who is a jump coach who works at their same rink? What extra efforts have been made, if any, exactly?

I believe Dalilah uses her own jump coach (I am not recalling his name right now, but he was in the KnC at Salt Lake with Alexa and Chris). I honestly can't speak to what training is being done for jumps in her camp. I know Alexa had a very good singles coach before she switched to pairs, but I have no idea about Chris. I honestly think age and injury have just caught up to Chris in a way that may not be 'fixable' at this point and perhaps it would be wise to go with easier content. Again, this is just my opinion, so take it for what it is....

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks for your input @Cleo1782. Seems as if it might be a good idea for Chris to at least get some tips and supportive advice from other tall former male skaters who are also U.S. pairs coaches. I'm not sure whether Peter O still coaches pairs. Maybe he does on the lower levels.

 

[Sylvia]

AFAIK, Eddie Shipstad, who coaches/has coached national level singles skaters, is the "jump coach" for Scimeca Knierim/Knierim. He went to Helsinki Worlds with them.

I know Peter Oppegard coaches Jaeckel/Scoralle (Junior) and the Fendi twins (Novice); he is still based in Artesia, CA.

 

[Cleo1782]

^^ Thanks for your input @Cleo1782. Seems as if it might be a good idea for Chris to at least get some tips and supportive advice from other tall former male skaters who are also U.S. pairs coaches. I'm not sure whether Peter O still coaches pairs. Maybe he does on the lower levels.

As @Sylvia said, Peter still coaches pairs and is obviously a good singles coach. It's all my speculation at this point, but I feel like Chris and Alexa basically skate like they practice. From my limited observations from competitions this year and watching them, Chris isn't really hitting these jumps in warm up or in practices. I am not sure bringing a jump coach in at this moment would make any impact with Nats less than 2 months away, tbh.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks. I know it's not up to you or anything like that. But I think that if nothing is going to change anyway, what could hurt from Dalilah making an attempt to have Peter, Todd and John at least speak to Chris about their experiences as tall former pairs skaters? They each particularly might be able to give Chris some tips re jumping strategies when being so tall it's hard to get that body around.

 

[Amantide]

I have never been a fan of Scimeca&Knierim skating but I have to say that I was impressed with how much they have improved. Just watched their LP in NHK and despite the mistakes I actually liked some of the elements and performance. I think their overall skating quality has improved a lot.

 

[Cleo1782]

^^ Thanks. I know it's not up to you or anything like that. But I think that if nothing is going to change anyway, what could hurt from Dalilah making an attempt to have Peter, Todd and John at least speak to Chris about their experiences as tall former pairs skaters? They each particularly might be able to give Chris some tips re jumping strategies when being so tall it's hard to get that body around.

To be honest, it's probably a control issue, and again I don't want to speak for Dalilah, but she probably wouldn't take advice from another pair coach because it would be dangerous for her to expose Alexa/Chris to other pair coaches. It's a business at the end of the day and she probably wouldn't want to lose her top team to another coach if that said coach made improvements.
It's kinda like the Zimmerman/Ingo situation a couple of years ago with Haven/Brandon. John got Ingo's input and H/B left John for Ingo......

 

[aftershocks]

It's kinda like the Zimmerman/Ingo situation a couple of years ago with Haven/Brandon. John got Ingo's input and H/B left John for Ingo......

I understand, and that definitely makes sense re the competitive coaching conflict, because Peter, Todd and John Z are all coaches. Perhaps there's someone else out there who is not a coach but is tall and could give Chris some pointers. Anything to help out. Why just accept that Chris can't improve? He's landed his jumps ok on a couple of occasions. I just fail to truly understand what it is about skaters' inability to get the help needed to improve with technical problems. It seems to be a slow slog or that they just hit a wall or something. And maybe there's just too much involved with training and competing and rehabbing injuries to be able to iron out all the kinks.

I think a more apt 'coach grabbing student' example is Nathan going to get choreo assistance from Marina Zoueva, and then somehow she was suddenly also coaching Nathan. And then U.S. fed suggested to Nathan that he not leave his primary coach who got him to where he is, especially technically.

The thing about the situation with John Z and Ingo, I believe, is that John Z was looking to form a team and he seemingly thought that Ingo might be someone who could join with him in a consulting capacity. But Ingo apparently is used to working alone and so it probably wasn't a good fit with likely Ingo having a strong personality and an individualistic approach. I'm just guessing that was maybe part of the issue based on something Brandon said that seemed as if he was feeling confused or uncomfortable with conflicting coaching approaches. Who knows. It just could have been that Ingo's past success made it tempting for D/F to want to train with Ingo exclusively. Unfortunately, it didn't work out after Haven's freak injury.

Meanwhile, John Z likely learned from the experience regarding what he needed to look for in collaborators that would enhance and not conflict with his style and approach. And John Z has gone on to put together a really good team with his wife, Silvia Fontana, Jeremy Barrett and John Kerr.

 

[pairskatingfan]

I think Alexa and Chris looked great at NHK, despite the jumping mistakes. 2 of them were sloppy, and one was a full miss, the pop on the toe. Still, with everything else solid, they are in by far the best place of any of our teams. As someone said earlier, their throws were very impressive. Timed with the music, big, and great flow.
I think Chris' mistakes on the jumps are more mental than physical. Clearly he has the ability to land the jumps or they wouldn't be in the program. I also don't know why anyone would push him to take advice from Peter Oppergard, who is known for verbally, emotionally, and physically abusing pair girls over the years.. Not to mention how much of a creep he is for marrying his student who is almost 20 years his junior. Nothing wrong with Karen, of course she is beautiful, but still he is repulsive.