U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[Jojo13]

So glad Audrey and Misha got a 2nd JGP. Their free skate was a huge improvement. Side by side jumps were landed and they looked great!!! Obviously two strong single skaters.

Allie and Jacob improved in standings from short program but not because they did anything special. They have a nice triple twist but removed throw triple from freeskate. Obviously the poor attempt in short program did not give them confidence to try again. Still do not understand music choice for two skaters who have no connection. Although I do not believe Allie can emote when she skates. She is a beautiful girl with very nice skating skills but becomes "zombie like" while competing. Certainly not ready to compete at the senior level at US Championships. Do not know which section they are competing at and how many senior teams are in each section, but it may be hard for them to even qualify.

Also following the Senior B . Our senior teams are just handing that Olympic spot to Alexa and Chris. Side by side jumps still an issue for Jessica and Zach. This team showed so much progress at Skate Detroit. I was really looking forward to watching them grow throughout the season. Hopefully they will peak when it really counts. And Deanna and Nate continue to struggle. They started the season early. Got their programs out there. So heartbreaking to not see them execute what they are capable of doing.

 

[angi]

I think Deanna and Nate showed overall improvement in their SP at Finlandia but she took a nasty fall on the throw and still recovered from it (twist was a mutual fault imo). The thing is, seeing him after the skate and later in the K&C I don't think they are going to make it as a team if he'll keep reacting to her like that (this is the second competition in a row I see him treating her badly when things go wrong).

 

[Jojo13]

I think Deanna and Nate showed overall improvement in their SP at Finlandia but she took a nasty fall on the throw and still recovered from it (twist was a mutual fault imo). The thing is, seeing him after the skate and later in the K&C I don't think they are going to make it as a team if he'll keep reacting to her like that (this is the second competition in a row I see him treating her badly with things go wrong).

He actually treated Gretchen that way too. Hard to watch.

 

[wickedwitch]

So glad Audrey and Misha got a 2nd JGP. Their free skate was a huge improvement. Side by side jumps were landed and they looked great!!! Obviously two strong single skaters.

Certainly not ready to compete at the senior level at US Championships. Do not know which section they are competing at and how many senior teams are in each section, but it may be hard for them to even qualify.

Also following the Senior B . Our senior teams are just handing that Olympic spot to Alexa and Chris.

Yes, no, and yes.

L/M looked great. Another 150+ score for US junior pairs this season! I wouldn't be shocked to see them or Lockley/Prochnow in contention for a medal at junior worlds. I'm loving this group of US junior pairs, and I think several of them have serious long term potential.

There is almost certainly not enough senior pairs teams in the US to make sectionals mandatory. There would need to be at least 18 teams (12 from sectionals +5 with byes from being top 5 + 1 of Alexa/Chris), and there's never been that many. I like Yao much more than you from an artistic standpoint, but she and Simon are so dull together. And I'm surprised he couldn't find a better jumper to partner with. Two interesting teams got split up and all we get is a boring team with a nice triple twist.

I'm not the biggest fan of SK/K and I love Cain/LeDuc, but with the team medal on the line, the US pairs teams have given the USFSA no reason to send anyone else but SK/K. They need a team who will most likely put up a solid score in the SP, and even with the sbs jumps issues, it's clearly SK/K. At this point, I'm starting to wonder just how badly SK/K could skate at Nats and still be the best choice.

And Nate needs to be more supportive to his partners.

 

[Jojo13]

Laiken and Keenan/Audrey and Misha are definitely two strong teams. If they can stay together and continue to develop it would be a good step I. The right direction for US pair teams. But they will need to be supported by USFSA. Our federation seems to give up on teams too easily.

Dull is an understatement when describing Allie and Jacob. As I stated, I think she is a very pretty girl with very nice skating skills. But together they do nothing for me. It is obvious that both Austin and Lindsay were the spark to their previous pairings. Each of them made their partners shine. Will never understand why both those teams split. And why neither Austin or Lindsay found someone else.

I too am a fan of Ashley and Tim. I am hoping they can make things interesting, but unfortunately not likely. Alexa and Chris will probably be the most obvious choice with team medal on the line. It is a shame because they are not really that great.

 

[Sylvia]

L/M looked great. Another 150+ score for US junior pairs this season!

Audrey Lu/Misha Mitrofanov set ISU personal bests for overall score (150.65) and in the FS today (99.12): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUlTyshWuCM
Their ISU personal best score in the SP was in Minsk (52.94): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSMTWLb7iAw

Laiken Lockley/Keenan Prochnow edged L/M out as the 3rd alternates to the JGP Final with a higher combined score in 2 comps (293.26 to 282.78) -- both teams had two 5th place finishes apiece (Lu/Mitrofanov today placed ahead of a Russian pair that had won their first event, allowing the Chinese pair to qualify for the Final ahead of them).

I'm loving this group of US junior pairs, and I think several of them have serious long term potential.

Like Lu/Mitrofanov, Sarah Feng/TJ Nyman also can land 2 side-by-side triples in the FS and both teams are still learning/refining their pair elements... which are as important as landing sbs jumps.

ETA videos of the best JGP showings of the other 2 pairs from earlier in this thread:

U.S. junior pair Lockley/Prochnow competed at JGP Riga and placed 5th overall (4th SP/3rd FS). It was quite a good showing for them!
L/P Riga SP [52.64]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6jtdC04xJ4
L/P Riga LP [98.63]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAio6HPzedg
What impressed me was L/P's technical content: Triple twist, throw 3Lp, throw 3S, SBS 3S, SBS 2A/2T in the free skate. The last few years, junior U.S. pairs have often lacked a triple twist or 2 throw triple jumps, so it was great to see these elements from Lockley/Prochnow. Last year at their GP event, they did only double twist in the long program, so nice to see them upgrade to triple twist. Not only that, their triple twist actually looks great and they achieved level 4 on it in both programs at Riga--really, really impressive. Still much work to do, but great start to the season for Lockley/Prochnow.

Sarah Feng/TJ Nyman made their JGP and international debut together and moved up to 8th overall with a very respectable FS, landing side-by-side 3S close together with good unison and 3T+2T+2T (he didn't land his 3T as smoothly as usual and had to do a 3-turn between his double toe loops) as well as a throw 3S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIIu2Awv7zk

Also, to follow up on the new U.S. junior pair team of Nadine Wang/Spencer Howe who debuted at Souvenir Georges-Éthier in Beauport, Quebec last weekend, they went for sbs 3Lz and 3S+2T in their FS (he appeared to me to have landed the jumps well but she was less successful, underrotating the Lutz and falling out of the Salchow - their FS protocol: https://www.patinage.qc.ca/resultats-competitions/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SGE17_20_DET.pdf

 

[kwanfan1818]

Short of crossing a criminal line, no partner has to stop/start being/doing anything to their partner, as long as their partner tolerates it, unfortunately.

 

[wickedwitch]

Like Lu/Mitrofanov, Sarah Feng/TJ Nyman also can land 2 side-by-side triples in the FS and both teams are still learning/refining their pair elements... which are as important as landing sbs jumps.

Feng/Nyman's pair elements, while clearly a WIP, look to have solid foundations for the most part. Their throw loop and twist look like they could be definitely turned into triples in the future. And the problems they had with the lift and death spiral seemed more like flukes. Obviously, without the experience, problems on less risky elements are more likely to happen, but I don't see them having consistent issues with either element in the future.

Speaking of juniors, has Finster/Griffin done any competitions or shows since Skate Detroit? I am looking forward to seeing them together.

 

[Jojo13]

Feng/Nyman's pair elements, while clearly a WIP, look to have solid foundations for the most part. Their throw loop and twist look like they could be definitely turned into triples in the future. And the problems they had with the lift and death spiral seemed more like flukes. Obviously, without the experience, problems on less risky elements are more likely to happen, but I don't see them having consistent issues with either element in the future.

Speaking of juniors, has Finster/Griffin done any competitions or shows since Skate Detroit? I am looking forward to seeing them together.

Feng/Nyman can definitely improve their pair skills. But what they have accomplished together in such a short period of time is fantastic. Plus they still have eligibility for next year. I would have liked for them to have gotten a 2nd assignment to give them more international exposure.

To my knowledge Finster/Griffin are no longer a pairing.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

At this point, I'm starting to wonder just how badly SK/K could skate at Nats and still be the best choice.

They could have skyped in a performance for US Nats last January and would have won.

Side note: Im interested to see how Laiken Lockley/Keenan Prochnow if they stay together.

 

[Bellanca]

I'm not the biggest fan of SK/K and I love Cain/LeDuc, but with the team medal on the line, the US pairs teams have given the USFSA no reason to send anyone else but SK/K. They need a team who will most likely put up a solid score in the SP, and even with the sbs jumps issues, it's clearly SK/K. At this point, I'm starting to wonder just how badly SK/K could skate at Nats and still be the best choice.

And Nate needs to be more supportive to his partners.

You hit the nail on the head with the strategic maneuvering as it pertains to the team comp and that SP score. I know fans and supporters have their favorite pairs team, but SK&K remain the clear front-runners for that (team) reason alone - if we're being completely honest.

Also, not to pile on Nate, but, yeah, his kiss and cry behavior is unfortunate sometimes.

 

[Cleo1782]

You hit the nail on the head with the strategic maneuvering as it pertains to the team comp and that SP score. I know fans and supporters have their favorite pairs team, but SK&K remain the clear front-runners for that (team) reason alone - if we're being completely honest.

Also, not to pile on Nate, but, yeah, his kiss and cry behavior is unfortunate sometimes.

I am going to play the Devil's Advocate in regard to Nate and his Kiss n Cry behavior. I have seen Nate live at the US Classic and at US Nationals with Deanna. It's really hard to speculate how well a partnership and people are getting along through a few minutes in the Kiss and Cry after a poor skate. From my understanding, both Deanna and Nate are fiercely competitive and know they can put much better skates out there. They are both frustrated and Deanna does not seem like the type of girl who needs comforting by her partner after a poor skate. I think it may appear frosty to others, but I have seen them at a few events including the US Classic and they were perfectly fine a few hours after their skates (especially after the long) I was lucky enough to catch them in the hotel in SLC and they were bummed about their skate, but hanging out together that night and for the rest of the weekend. I also saw Nate and Gretchen together the Nationals before they broke up and they were together the last night of competition and Nate was very nice and protective of her when I saw them together. They came and left together and seem to be great friends. So to say Nate isn't supportive of his partners seems unfair since we only get a small sample of what they do day in and day out.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, it might look bad on the surface, but there's so much many of us fans are not privy to 24/7, and so it's easy to make snap judgments. Thanks for your input @Cleo1782.

I would think that very often when athletes display annoyance and behavior that looks like they are not happy with their partner, it could be more about being upset with themselves. And also quite often feeling they let their partner down, or perhaps even being too caught up in the disappointment of the moment to realize how they are coming across on camera.

I am reminded of the season before James/Cipres' breakout success when they perhaps reached their lowest moment and Morgan wasn't behaving very well in the kiss 'n cry. His behavior manifested as seeming annoyance toward Vanessa, when he was more likely extremely disappointed in his own performance. Vanessa took it for awhile meekly and then gave Morgan a piece of her mind. There were rumors and gossip galore after that incident, but the reality seems to have been a deep commitment J/C felt and still feel toward each other, along with an unwavering desire to succeed. They left no stone unturned, and look where they are now, still solidly together.

The upshot again is that as fans on the outside looking in, we don't always know what we don't know, unless we are the athletes in question and unless we have insider knowledge. What seems one way on the surface could be completely different from what we imagine or speculate. And I only say this after seeing a number of comments and further reflecting upon the tendency we all have to make snap judgments based on immediate appearances (which does not mean athletes shouldn't be cognizant of the impression their unconscious behaviors can suggest).

Deanna & Nate had a good start to a challenging season of big expectations and ambitious goals in what is only their second year together and their first season competing at major international comps. I wish them well, and I hope they can somewhat relax the pressure they inevitably are placing on themselves in a pressure-cooker of a season.

 

[angi]

James/Cipres hit rock bottom at Skate America and Morgan was called on his behavior there by many people. They later on said that Zimmerman really helped them with that aspect of their partnership and they seem way better at it now.
I can only imagine how hard it is to be in a situation where your fate is completely tied to someone else and when one of the two of you make a mistake - it affects you both. I think this is why so many teams see sports psychologists regarding that aspect. But for me to see a skater react to his partner so coldly after seeing her/him take serious hits - it's a hard pill to swallow. I also think that the top teams usually act differently and I think it tells us something - I guess I believe that to be a top team you have to react differently and it makes your partnership stronger.

 

[Cleo1782]

I mean there are a lot of partnerships that don't look great in the Kiss n Cry. Ksenia's death stare for example. S/B for my knowledge get along just fine. I think their dynamic is to think about what they did wrong after a skate individually. They arent' the type of couple to be happy/happy after a bad skate. From my limited experience, Nate seems like a truly great guy. Deanna takes thing harder I think and I don't think she would have been happy with Nate hugging or comforting her. She is her own worst critic. it's unfortunate because I think Nate is a very nice guy and is getting some unfair flack.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Exactly. People are different and behave differently under challenging circumstances. The reality is that everyone faces learning curves, especially high level athletes. Any sport involving teams of two or more athletes working together can be challenging and also very rewarding.

It doesn't matter that Morgan was 'called' on his behavior two seasons ago. Flack from 'on the sidelines fans' didn't mean as much as Morgan realizing the error of his ways, and Vanessa and their coaches at the time helping them to work through that situation (which is not the same as Deanna/Nate's situation and career trajectory). J/C's ultimate reaction was taking stock and Vanessa eventually seeking out Zimmerman to help them find the missing ingredient. They built upon all the hard work and recognition they'd achieved to that point via assistance from a variety of coaches and supporters.

 

[Bellanca]

So to say Nate isn't supportive of his partners seems unfair since we only get a small sample of what they do day in and day out.

Well, I didn't say that. I said his behavior is unfortunate sometimes. Basically, I am talking about his general attitude after their skate, not so much how he is or isn't treating his partner. I will let others debate that. Emotions run high, but how Nate comports himself is equally vital. IMHO. It is not the end of the world, just a passing observation.

Caroline Zhang would be another example of having an unfortunate kiss and cry reaction, at times, and there are others, of course, but this is a pairs team thread - my apologies for the split-second drift.

I am not suggesting that a skater fake their feelings or emotions, but at least maintain a modicum of composure.

To clarify: This post is in no way suggesting that Nate isn't anything but a good, stand-up guy, he is, so don't take it that way or make it into something it is not, please. As I’m commenting on kiss and cry behavior, only. I’m not evaluating or dissecting this pairs team (or any other pairs team) and their relationship toward each other or their psychological makeup.

 

[angi]

So to say Nate isn't supportive of his partners seems unfair since we only get a small sample of what they do day in and day out.

That also wasn't what I was saying. I don't doubt his character or how he is "behind the scenes", I was simply commenting on his demeanor after a skate finishes and up until and including the K&C and I think that part doesn't give a good feeling. Someone brought Stolbova as an example - but that time at GPF was the exception not the rule - you can look at her today at Finlandia and at Worlds for better examples. I feel like the way teams react in the K&C is many times a reflection of the state of the partnership when it's a recurring thing and not a one time occurrence, and with them it is a recurring thing. It's very possible that this is just how he shows disappointment but a simple gesture to acknowledge a partner who took several hits can go along way. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Cleo1782]

Well, I didn't say that. I said his behavior is unfortunate sometimes. Basically, I am talking about his general attitude after their skate, not so much how he is or isn't treating his partner. I will let others debate that. Emotions run high, but how Nate comports himself is equally vital. IMHO. It is not the end of the world, just a passing observation.

Caroline Zhang would be another example of having an unfortunate kiss and cry reaction, at times, and there are others, of course, but this is a pairs team thread - my apologies for the split-second drift.

I am not suggesting that a skater fake their feelings or emotions, but at least maintain a modicum of composure.

To clarify: This post is in no way suggesting that Nate isn't anything but a good, stand-up guy, he is, so don't take it that way or make it into something it is not, please. As I’m commenting on kiss and cry behavior, only. I’m not evaluating or dissecting this pairs team (or any other pairs team) and their relationship toward each other or their psychological makeup.

Fair enough. Perhaps Nate can improve that in the future but I would rather worry about them executing a great program. I was just saying I highly doubt that there is any trouble with the relationship of Dee/Nate. From what I have seen (briefly) they seem to get a long great. They just sometimes come off cold I think because they are very into thinking about their mistakes in the KnC and seem to be processing their own mistakes in their own head at that moment.

 

[Jayar]

Caroline Zhang would be another example of having an unfortunate kiss and cry reaction, at times, and there are others, of course, but this is a pairs team thread - my apologies for the split-second drift.

I am not going to presume that I know Caroline on a personal basis. I have met her, interviewed her, and have had small conversations with her not about skating. She is a sweet young lady who while, in my opinion, is completely comfortable skating in front of an audience, is a bit reserved when it comes to the spotlight. I think (I don't *know*) that the KnC would be a place where she feels uncomfortable-- I can only imagine that it's not the best feeling being judged in front of an audience and on television. Yes she signed up for the sport, but I think that not all athletes are willing and/or able to present themselves as perfectly poised at all times. I know that in my work, I could be a lot more put together, but it's a process, and I am still learning how to deal with the glare of what my job requires... at age 45.

 

[Cleo1782]

That also wasn't what I was saying. I don't doubt his character or how he is "behind the scenes", I was simply commenting on his demeanor after a skate finishes and up until and including the K&C and I think that part doesn't give a good feeling. Someone brought Stolbova as an example - but that time at GPF was the exception not the rule - you can look at her today at Finlandia and at Worlds for better examples. I feel like the way teams react in the K&C is many times a reflection of the state of the partnership when it's a recurring thing and not a one time occurrence, and with them it is a recurring thing. It's very possible that this is just how he shows disappointment but a simple gesture to acknowledge a partner who took several hits can go along way. That's my take on it anyway.

To basically end the discussion, I have seen lovey dovey knc with partners I know for a fact basically hate each other. The KnC reaction means very little to me. Everyone reacts differently to poor skates. This means almost nothing. The SKATING is what's important. From all accounts S/B have a very good relationship. How they react to their skating is almost trivial to me because I have seen them together at events and they get alone fine.
ETA-I am not a S/B uber at all. I just think it's unfair to judge a partnership on a few KnC moments

 

[tony]

I watched the kiss and cry and they both just looked frustrated with the skate. I was expecting a Don Baldwin moment based on some of the comments here.

 

[rfisher]

Short of crossing a criminal line, no partner has to stop/start being/doing anything to their partner, as long as their partner tolerates it, unfortunately.

Makes you wonder if people have watched James/Cipres in the KnC Yet, they manage quite well. I suspect Deanna can hold her own.

 

[angi]

I was expecting a Don Baldwin moment based on some of the comments here.

OK so now I'm really curious about what a "Don Baldwin moment" is, care to share a link?

 

[tony]

OK so now I'm really curious about what a "Don Baldwin moment" is, care to share a link?

Luckily for them, it doesn't seem to be on Youtube. It was at US Nationals in one of Vise/Baldwin's last seasons competing (maybe even the very last one). A really bad SP put them way down in the standings and he didn't hold back at all in the K&C- swearing up a storm, disgusted with everything, etc. Tiffany tried to get him to stop without making a huge scene but he kept going. She actually came on the FSU a day or two later to apologize and explain it was just the disappointment of the moment which is understandable.

Didn't mean to rehash the drama, just thought this was going to be at that level and I found it pretty ordinary/typical of someone who is disappointed.

 

[Cleo1782]

Luckily for them, it doesn't seem to be on Youtube. It was at US Nationals in one of Vise/Baldwin's last seasons competing (maybe even the very last one). A really bad SP put them way down in the standings and he didn't hold back at all in the K&C- swearing up a storm, disgusted with everything, etc. Tiffany tried to get him to stop without making a huge scene but he kept going. She actually came on the FSU a day or two later to apologize and explain it was just the disappointment of the moment which is understandable.

Didn't mean to rehash the drama, just thought this was going to be at that level and I found it pretty ordinary/typical of someone who is disappointed.

Yeah that was bad, but it's kinda how Donnie is IRL. Clearly it had no affect on their relationship as they are married now. Moments of frustration and what seems like poor behavior sometimes has no bearing on how well a pair works together. And Btw, that program was AWFUL by V/B. At least he cared that it was so disappointing. I want to say it was their 2nd to last nationals together, but I could be wrong.

 

[Cleo1782]

That also wasn't what I was saying. I don't doubt his character or how he is "behind the scenes", I was simply commenting on his demeanor after a skate finishes and up until and including the K&C and I think that part doesn't give a good feeling. Someone brought Stolbova as an example - but that time at GPF was the exception not the rule - you can look at her today at Finlandia and at Worlds for better examples. I feel like the way teams react in the K&C is many times a reflection of the state of the partnership when it's a recurring thing and not a one time occurrence, and with them it is a recurring thing. It's very possible that this is just how he shows disappointment but a simple gesture to acknowledge a partner who took several hits can go along way. That's my take on it anyway.

I get that. My point is what they do or not to in the kiss and cry really isn't enough to say (not you-specifically) that their partnership won't work out. I was trying to explain I have seen S/B on the competitive ice and in person and I found 0 problems with how they acted together. It wasn't forced or strange-every pair has their own process. I think we should lay off an Olympian and a very experienced single skater literally has no drama on this board until 2 awkward KnC's- not a long term issue. They were great at Nationals to each other. To me it shows how important their skating is to them and how disappointed they are to skate not up to par as they know they can do much better.

 

[Bellanca]

Aah, yes, the "Don Baldwin moment!" Yeah, best to avoid melting down that badly. I must admit, that became an instant classic, if not an unfortunate moment, but I do not think Nate will be traveling that path - ever.

Don, Nate, they probably won't be the last to give us colorful kiss and cry moments.

 

[pairskatingfan]

^^ Quite the conversation on the Kiss n Cry!
Deanna and Nate moved up in the free skate with a relatively solid skate (fall on throw quad, he doubled the salchow), otherwise relatively clean; while Jessica and Zack also improved on their ACI free skate (He fell on underrotated salchow and stepped out of 2A), otherwise relatively clean.

What are Jessica and Zack's prospects of getting another international or a GP?
What about our other teams who have skated well and don't have another like P/S and L/J?

 

[clairecloutier]

What are Jessica and Zack's prospects of getting another international or a GP?
What about our other teams who have skated well and don't have another like P/S and L/J?

Calalang/Sidhu have had 2 Challenger Series assignments already this season. Last year Cain/LeDuc got 3 CS assignments, so it's not out of the question Calalang/Sidhu could get another, or a non-CS Senior B. I think it's perhaps a bit unlikely though, but we'll see. A GP is probably not going to happen--there are many teams ahead of them on the World Standings/Season's-Best lists.

It seems likely that Pfund/Santillan and Liu/Johnson may get second CS assignments to one of the later CS events: Tallinn Trophy, Warsaw Cup, or Golden Spin.