U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

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Calalang/Sidhu have had 2 Challenger Series assignments already this season. Last year Cain/LeDuc got 3 CS assignments, so it's not out of the question Calalang/Sidhu could get another, or a non-CS Senior B. I think it's perhaps a bit unlikely though, but we'll see. A GP is probably not going to happen--there are many teams ahead of them on the World Standings/Season's-Best lists.

It seems likely that Pfund/Santillan and Liu/Johnson may get second CS assignments to one of the later CS events: Tallinn Trophy, Warsaw Cup, or Golden Spin.
Chelsea Liu/Brian Johnson almost certainly will be getting a second Challenger assignment.

Pairs Scoretracker is updated through Finlandia Trophy & JGP Gdansk: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/
 
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Hmmmmm so I finally watched the SP of S&B and don't now understand what the drama was about their Kiss & Cry.....

They just looked like a team who was disappointed in their skate.

I was expecting full on Fusar-Poli or full on Cipres. There was none of that!

People kept commenting about how Nate was treating her in K&C. He didn't treat her poorly at all.

The drama was much better last night on Housewives, not any drama in K&C.
 
Hmmmmm so I finally watched the SP of S&B and don't now understand what the drama was about their Kiss & Cry.....

They just looked like a team who was disappointed in their skate.

I was expecting full on Fusar-Poli or full on Cipres. There was none of that!

People kept commenting about how Nate was treating her in K&C. He didn't treat her poorly at all.

The drama was much better last night on Housewives, not any drama in K&C.


Agreed. I saw no real drama. They had a bad skate and it looked like both were thinking their skate through. Nate was not outright mean to her or yelling at her-it looked like they were processing what happened. Marissa and Simon had a very rocky relationship and openly discussed it. From all accounts, Deanna and Nate get along fine. Not a big deal.
 
Honestly I don't get how you got "drama" from me commenting about what I felt was a cold demeanor from one partner to the other? Not every comment is "drama", that was was simply an observation...
 
Honestly I don't get how you got "drama" from me commenting about what I felt was a cold demeanor from one partner to the other? Not every comment is "drama", that was was simply an observation...

I didn't direct the drama comment at you. Others on this thread and others plus TSL have said drama. Really it's no big deal. That fact that we are still talking about Nate's demeanor is ridiculous. That is the least of the problems in US pairs. Moving on............
 
Well if we are moving on - it was stated here several times about the US pairs teams apparent inability to land their jumps - I think they made a progress in this subject over the weekend at Finlandia - S/B landed their 3T in the short and their 3T2T in the free (they got low GOEs for both but it's a start).
 
Cross-posting from a discussion in Canadian pairs:

History is illuminating, insightful and essential, even though few people in figure skating care to take the time to check out the history and make the relevant connections. We are continuing to lose connections with the past ever since Dick Button's retirement. A lot of fans today think only of the moment or the recent history, rather than delving back to understand the past and how it impacts the present. There are so many connections to make.

When I kept hearing people acting as if U.S. pairs are so terrible and that Canadian pairs are so much better, I asked why and I decided to do some research last year. With the Internet, research capabilities are right at our fingertips, and there are some good books too. Also, a few old-timers are still around who we definitely need to talk to and learn from before it's too late. I frankly feel that U.S. fed needs to take advantage of the knowledge of pairs from the past such as Ron Ludington, JoJo Starbuck, Babilonia/Gardner, as well as seeking fresh ideas and expertise outside the box to complement what's available from current coaches and former pairs skaters such as Peter Oppegard, Meno/Sand, Jim Peterson, Amanda Evora, Mark Ladwig, and John Zimmerman. It seems that Zimmerman's buzz worthy success with France's James/Cipres has only excited interest from Canadian pairs instead of any U.S. pairs. Hopefully, it's just that the more established U.S. teams are comfortable with their current coaches, and that more younger teams will be contacting Zimmerman post the Olympics season.

I have noticed that Canadian pairs always seemed to receive more props among North American teams, even when they were not actually better than U.S. pairs (for e.g. at 2010 Olympics). Evora/Ladwig were unfairly low-balled when they skated better than all three Canadian teams. Dube/Davison were a better team, but they simply did not live up to their billing. I don't think the other two Canadian pairs that year were better than E/L, despite being rated ahead. A lot of pairs teams made mistakes and got breaks ahead of E/L at that Olympics.

Currently Canadian pairs are obviously better than U.S. teams, and Canadians have a wonderful history to be proud of in pairs. I also think Skate Canada pays more attention to developing their pairs than U.S. fed has ever done. So that makes a difference. The major influence is that Wagner/Paul broke through in a big way at Worlds and Olympics in the late 1950s and early 1960s and thus established a legacy. And also Canadian pairs have had a great deal more recent successes at Worlds and Olympics, with Brasseur/Eisler, Sale/Pelletier, and Duhamel/Radford. That's why I found it surprising to discover that Canadian teams were off the Worlds podium for 19 years from 1964 (Wilkes/Revell won bronze) to 1983 when Underhill/ Martini broke through again for Canada, winning bronze and then grabbing gold in 1984 prior to retiring -- U/M had faltered at the 1984 Olympics, where the Carruthers siblings from the U.S. won silver. I wonder how long it will take U.S. pairs to recover from their 16-year long and counting World podium drought?

The Russian pairs dominance after the extraordinary innovations of Belousova/Protopopov in the 1960s is what kept so many countries off the pairs podium. However, U.S. teams managed to remain relevant in the 1960s and 1970s with the Josephs, the Kauffmans, Starbuck/Shelley, and Babilonia/Gardner. In the 1980s, the Carruthers and Watson/Oppegard reached World and Olympic podiums. And later, Kuchiki/Sand, Meno/Sand, Ina/Zimmerman, and that has been it in terms of most recent World podium appearances, although there have been some other top contending teams from the U.S., just not significantly enough for about 16 years. I think the U.S. pairs discipline might benefit from looking back and gaining some inspiration from the fact that it was a U.S. pairs team, Carol & Peter Kennedy, who were the first North American team to win a World championship, in 1950. The Kennedys had won silver twice before winning gold, and they also won silver at the 1952 Olympics. The U.S.'s Loughran/Badger were the first North American team to reach a World podium, winning bronze in 1930, and the first NA team on an Olympic podium with their silver at the 1932 Olympics.

Canada's first breakthrough on the World and Olympics podium was in 1948 with Morrow/ Diestelmeyer winning bronze at both events. Later Dafoe/Bowden in the mid-1950s extended the Canadian legacy which paved the way for the huge success of Wagner/Paul, accompanied by the Jelineks (who won a World championship in 1962).
 
Aside from enjoying C/T's new fp, I love Denney/Frazier's new programs and I feel really bummed about Haven's knee injury which has slowed their momentum and progress. I hope Haven will be able to regain strength and form to stay in another four years. Injuries have hampered Calalang/Sidhu's progress and development too. They have come back with some fun programs, but I think Zach's back problem is still a work-in-progress for him to manage. I've already previously discussed Cain/LeDuc's new programs. I'm hoping to see steady progress from them this season. C/L showed some improvements in their second debut of their new programs.

Alexa/Chris have some decent programs, but I'd like to see more improvement from them on the sbs jumps and skating more as one. Deanna/Nate have challenged themselves to push hard competitively in only their second year together which is a big ask. They started out with some hopeful success on their sbs 3-lutzes, but with pushing themselves to add difficulty while trying to work on other aspects of melding as a team, they seem to have hit a wall. I hope they can work it out. Pfund/Santillan are making slow progress and they have good programs. I'm really interested to see the progress of Max Settlage with his new partner, Winter Deardorff.
 
It seems likely that Pfund/Santillan and Liu/Johnson may get second CS assignments to one of the later CS events: Tallinn Trophy, Warsaw Cup, or Golden Spin.
Both Jessica Pfund/Josh Santillan and Chelsea Liu/Brian Johnson have been assigned to Warsaw Cup (Nov. 16-19) - their names are published on the ISU online entries list and confirmed on USFS' International Assignments page.
 
^Good News! Both P/S and L/J have shown some great early season promise. Good to see P/S w/ a 3twist. I hope that both pairs can take it to the next level.
 
I didn't direct the drama comment at you. Others on this thread and others plus TSL have said drama. Really it's no big deal. That fact that we are still talking about Nate's demeanor is ridiculous. That is the least of the problems in US pairs. Moving on............


Anytime your source is TSL... why are you posting it? Seriously, the podcast lives to "create drama" and otherwise stir things up. If you want to listen to it, that's your business but IMHO posting anything from it is just passing on trash that they made up to make themselves feel important!

The problem isn't Nate, it's TSL!
 
Anytime your source is TSL... why are you posting it? Seriously, the podcast lives to "create drama" and otherwise stir things up. If you want to listen to it, that's your business but IMHO posting anything from it is just passing on trash that they made up to make themselves feel important!

The problem isn't Nate, it's TSL!

It wasn't only TSL other posters were mentioning it. Honestly no big deal. I wasn't trying to stir up any drama-I was just defending them. I didn't think it was fair to speculate about their relationship since we don't personally know them.
 
That was a really lovely sp for Haven and Brandon at SC. Kudos to them for landing really nice sbs triples, and skating beautifully overall. :cheer2: I thought the judges were very stingy on the scores for them. Haven and Brandon were clearly better on everything than the two pairs preceding them in the sp. For how well Haven and Brandon performed they should have been at least two points higher IMO. The judges simply have low expectations for some skaters. Politics is so rampant. I really enjoy both of D/F's programs this season.
 
That was a really lovely sp for Haven and Brandon at SC. Kudos to them for landing really nice sbs triples, and skating beautifully overall. :cheer2: I thought the judges were very stingy on the scores for them. Haven and Brandon were clearly better on everything than the two pairs preceding them in the sp. For how well Haven and Brandon performed they should have been at least two points higher IMO. The judges simply have low expectations for some skaters. Politics is so rampant. I really enjoy both of D/F's programs this season.

I agree! I have so much respect for this team. Haven's knee injury was SO serious and it must haven taken so much work and perseverance to come back. Every time she jumps I hold my breath! She was stunning, I thought, with her beautiful smile and obvious joy to be back on the ice. Such a great comeback for them. Best of luck in the free!
 
That was a really lovely sp for Haven and Brandon at SC. Kudos to them for landing really nice sbs triples, and skating beautifully overall. :cheer2: I thought the judges were very stingy on the scores for them. Haven and Brandon were clearly better on everything than the two pairs preceding them in the sp. For how well Haven and Brandon performed they should have been at least two points higher IMO. The judges simply have low expectations for some skaters. Politics is so rampant. I really enjoy both of D/F's programs this season.

I agree it was a very lovely program. Very nice for them. I thought the scores were okay, especially since she got the ur call on the sal. Close to I/M and in such a packed field it was going to be rough for them. I imagine if they keep putting up strong performances their scores will improve a lot.
 
^^ Yes, ITA. I'm rooting for D/F but keeping my heart on an even keel. Steady as they go. :) Haven just turned 22 and Brandon will be 25 in November. Surely they will continue for at least another four years. I hope so.

Interestingly, Dave Lease (despite being certifiable throughout most of his TSL recaps) was waxing nostalgic, at the end of the Rostelecom Cup review, about some former pairs programs by U.S. teams worth watching again. I agree with his suggestions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59A5vL1WvDQ Oh my, I remember -- Tiffany was so very lovely; why didn't something happen for her at the very least; she was indeed special! 1998 Stieglers' Romeo & Juliet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvp96fqlRTk What a boss program. I have never forgotten this program choreographed by Peter Oppegard for Stiegler/Zimmerman 1997 U.S. Nats The Sorcerer's Apprentice

John Z and/or Peter O should think about bringing this program back for an up-and-coming U.S. pair team! For Calalang/Sidhu or Deardorff/Settlage. Or perhaps even for Denney/Frazier. Why not?
 
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Interestingly, Dave Lease (despite being certifiable throughout most of his TSL recaps) was waxing nostalgic, at the end of the Rostelecom Cup review, about some former pairs programs by U.S. teams worth watching again. I agree with his suggestions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59A5vL1WvDQ Oh my, I remember -- Tiffany was so very lovely; why didn't something happen for her at the very least; she was indeed special! 1998 Stieglers' Romeo & Juliet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvp96fqlRTk What a boss program. I have never forgotten this program choreographed by Peter Oppegard for Stiegler/Zimmerman 1997 U.S. Nats The Sorcerer's Apprentice

John Z and/or Peter O should think about bringing this program back for an up-and-coming U.S. pair team! For Calalang/Sidhu or Deardorff/Settlage. Or perhaps even for Denney/Frazier. Why not?

Tiffany ended up being very tall and made a go at ice dance and was pretty good (4th one year at Nats I think?) I think with brother and sister pair teams its always iffy because the boy is going to have to be tall and the girl short and that doesn't happen very often in families.

The Socerer's Apprentice is one of my favorite pair programs of all time. Peter O. did a lot of lovely chreo in the late 90's even for some of his junior teams (Ganaba/Ganaba's Mask of Zorro-I have no idea if this exists on you tube). I often wonder why he isn't used more.
 
^^ Yes, thanks @Cleo1782. I remember that Tiffany later tried out ice dance, and she was very good at it too, but the partnership didn't last long. It is unfortunate that Tiffany was unable to find another pairs partner in time to make another go at it. And that she and Johnnie were too young to go to the Olympics in 1998. The judges' scores at 1998 Nationals were extremely low-ball for how well they skated their R&J program. Tiffany was the shining star.

Yep, why isn't more being done these days of a collaborative nature for U.S. pairs? And why can't they consider bringing back The Sorcerer's Apprentice? I even think it could work for Kayne/O'Shea. I recall Sima and Amir Ganaba. I couldn't find any of their programs on Youtube, but here's an article about them:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/679442/Ganaba-siblings-place-first-in-Junior-Pairs.html

Dave said: "When you feel nostalgia for the Hartsells, you know that IJS has ruined skating in some way..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETQlG5XElWY :D
 
^^ Yes, thanks @Cleo1782. I remember that Tiffany later tried out ice dance, and she was very good at it too, but the partnership didn't last long. It is unfortunate that Tiffany was unable to find another pairs partner in time to make another go at it. And that she and Johnnie were too young to go to the Olympics in 1998. The judges' scores at 1998 Nationals were extremely low-ball for how well they skated their R&J program. Tiffany was the shining star.

Yep, why isn't more being done these days of a collaborative nature for U.S. pairs? And why can't they consider bringing back The Sorcerer's Apprentice? I even think it could work for Kayne/O'Shea. I recall Sima and Amir Ganaba. I couldn't find any of their programs on Youtube, but here's an article about them:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/679442/Ganaba-siblings-place-first-in-Junior-Pairs.html

Dave said: "When you feel nostalgia for the Hartsells, you know that IJS has ruined skating in some way..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETQlG5XElWY :D
Tiffany actually did skate another year in pairs with burt cording post johnnie. I want to say in 2003 or 2004.
 
Omg gosh yes I was at Nationals in 1996 and got to see both the Stieglers in juniors and Steiger and Zimmerman. I've really liked Oppegard's choreography over the years. Maybe he's too busy to do more than his own skaters.
 
Perhaps the more pressing question about choreography is why our pairs are not using John Zimmermann and SilviaFontana. Two of the top pairs today rely on him (that new lift placement in D/Rs Free skate is so Zimmermann), but have any of our top pairs gone to him. I mean, the guy skated with Rodnina and Moskvina and has developed the French one of the most exciting pairs.
 
Perhaps the more pressing question about choreography is why our pairs are not using John Zimmermann and SilviaFontana. Two of the top pairs today rely on him (that new lift placement in D/Rs Free skate is so Zimmermann), but have any of our top pairs gone to him. I mean, the guy skated with Rodnina and Moskvina and has developed the French one of the most exciting pairs.

John Zimmerman never took from Irina Rodnina. Oppegard and then Moskvina. Haven and Brandon did use him as did Caydee Denney and Jeremy Barret for a season. Not sure why he hasn't caught on in the US, but no one is stopping our pairs from training with him. Maybe it will change, but I don't think he even has a large group of novice or junior pairs.
 
... (that new lift placement in D/Rs Free skate is so Zimmermann...

It could be that the idea you are speaking of for D/R was inspired via Zimmerman's former association with Moskvina, or else it could have come from one of Zimmerman's team coaches, Jeremy Barrett, or from choreographer John Kerr in collaboration with D/R's longtime choreographer Julie Marcotte.

If you are speaking of Denney/Frazier's lift flip, please note that they are no longer coached by Zimmerman. Rockne Brubaker coaches D/F in Chicago, and Marina Zoueva choreographs for D/F.
 
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Although there was improvement seen with Haven and Brandon at Skate Canada, our pairs still are no where near competitive with the top teams. Rockne and Stephania along with Marina are doing their job. Our pair teams are just not hungry enough. They are not striving to be that number one team. They are not pushing themselves to get that one spot. They have caved. There seems to be a contentment with being mediocre. And this obviously trickles down from USFSA. What are they doing to make our pair teams better, stronger, and competitive? They are sending the message the Knieram’s are it.
 
@Jojo13 I'm saying this with no disrespect to the current US pairs teams (I actually like most of them) - but maybe it's not that they are not hungry enough but that they are just not good enough? The top teams at the moment are crazy good and what they are accomplishing technically and artistically might be out of reach for the current US pairs field. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't push to be the best that they can but realistically making the top 10 is the best this teams can accomplish even at their best showings imo. (and again I truly admire those teams for fighting injuries and pushing themselves)
 
Denney/Frazier at Skate Canada (no commentary vids):
SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6vLiMG1PYE
FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSENUIwxdMY
This is the first time they've added sbs toe loops into the FS, I believe? Looks like they planned 2T for now and hope to upgrade them to triples in the near future.

Castelli/Tran's Rostelecom Cup FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX1FgEVlho4

Upcoming ISU Challenger assignments:
Warsaw Cup, Nov. 16-19: Liu/Johnson, Pfund/Santillan
Tallinn Trophy, Nov. 21-26: Castelli/Tran
Golden Spin of Zagreb, Dec. 6-9: TBA

Pairs Scoretracker is updated through Skate Canada International: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/
 
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@Jojo13 I'm saying this with no disrespect to the current US pairs teams (I actually like most of them) - but maybe it's not that they are not hungry enough but that they are just not good enough? The top teams at the moment are crazy good and what they are accomplishing technically and artistically might be out of reach for the current US pairs field. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't push to be the best that they can but realistically making the top 10 is the best this teams can accomplish even at their best showings imo. (and again I truly admire those teams for fighting injuries and pushing themselves)
I agree. It's easier to be mad about the state of US pairs if the cause is skaters not pushing themselves or working hard enough. But if the reality is that they simply don't have the ability, then there's nobody to be mad at.

Unless people really think that Haven Denney pushed herself to comeback from a severe injury, regained form on many elements, but when it came to the sbs jumps, she suddenly decided to not push herself.
 
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