U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[Deleted member 40371]

Because like it or not the US only lost its second spot due to a quota issue that is no longer an issue. Despite the fact that it is no longer an issue, it still lost out on that spot. For many it's not about the fact that this is revolving around the U.S., but about how the rule being faulty. Even if the U.S. rightfully won't be able to argue to get a second spot because the rules are written that way, I hope this gets addressed for the next Olympics in case this happens to another federation.

I don’t think there is a lot to argue about , if they were up to par they would have qualified never the less. They are not that good, let others countries let the opportunity to qualify a team. At Sochi, the host in Men’s only had one spot based on the rules, they limped on with that rules. I truly believe there is not a single pair from US that deserves it over 6 or 7 teams that are competing this week in Germany for a spot at olympics. At least, let others qualify a team.

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t think there is a lot to argue about , if they were up to par they would have qualified never the less. They are not that good, let others countries let the opportunity to qualify a team. At Sochi, the host in Men’s only had one spot based on the rules, they limped on with that rules. I truly believe there is not a single pair from US that deserves it over 6 or 7 teams that are competing this week in Germany for a spot at olympics. At least, let others qualify a team.

That's the only argument people have which really comes down to one's judgment of the American pairs but doesn't actually argue or address any of the points raised. I have a feeling if it was another country involved people would react differently.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I hesitate to say this but you may not want to check out C&L SP score at Nebelhorn. sigh

 

[VGThuy]

I hesitate to say this but you may not want to check out C&L SP score at Nebelhorn. sigh

I've been about the principle of the matter, but moving on to the actual skaters...yeah the US Pairs really aren't helping their case at the moment. And if the North Koreans get that fifth spot that was very recently given to Nebelhorn, then I doubt many people will complain.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^^ well, at least their (C&L) PCS if 4th highest.

Thinking of adding whiskey to my cereal this morning.....

 

[clairecloutier]

The principle of the matter is where I've been, too. But yeah, U.S. pairs, help us out here.

I wonder if this competition is a bit tough for Cain/LeDuc--it's got to be, I would think. Just knowing that other teams are fighting for those spots, but we can't fight for it. Ashley/Tim did score 5 points higher in the Lombardia SP two weeks ago.

 

[Spiralgraph]

It's unrealistic to expect that all of a sudden all our top USA pairs will magically improve to be contenders for any and all international podiums. It's better to wish for steady progress, some sign that they're at least working on consistency for those sbs triples and throws. C/L have connection, some innovative moves and are (supposedly) good singles skaters.

My hope is for a clean performance for the free skate. I'm not betting anything that C/L will achieve that, but I'll still cross my fingers for them.

 

[feraina]

Well there's still the LP. I'm hoping C/L can make up some points. They are not so far behind Ryom/Kim, 5th after SP and 3rd among hose fighting for a spot. I'd like them to show they are at least as good as those other teams deemed good enough to go to the olympics by the current rules!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

OK well Cain & LeDuc turned it around scoring nearly 121 points in the free just now with no deductions......

So does that give them now the second highest scoring USA free program so far, behind Knierims?

 

[alexikeguchi]

And NKorea just qualified for the Olympics, beating C&L in the process. I agree that the principle needs to be addressed, but a second US pairs team (maybe even a first) made no more claim to that spot than France, who gave it up.

 

[VGThuy]

And NKorea just qualified for the Olympics, beating C&L in the process. I agree that the principle needs to be addressed, but a second US pairs team (maybe even a first) made no more claim to that spot than France, who gave it up.

Nobody said the U.S. had more claim to that spot than France, but that they pretty much had the same claim. If we're going to pretend that the U.S. could have fought for a spot, and everything else stayed the same (meaning Russia/Germany also couldn't fight for more spots than they received at 2017 Worlds), then the C/L's final placements at least would have given them the 4th spot thus far.

 

[feraina]

So happy for them! They finally skated a good FS! Now if they could skate two good programs in the same comp... there's still SKAM coming up soon.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

So happy for them! They finally skated a good FS! Now if they could skate two good programs in the same comp... there's still SKAM coming up soon.

Stellato/Bartholomay got the third Skate America spot.

 

[feraina]

Stellato/Bartholomay got the third Skate America spot.

Oops. I meant the CoC GP spot they got as replacements for K/O

 

[Sylvia]

Pairs Scoretracker is updated through this week's Nebelhorn Trophy and the JGP in Zagreb: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/

Cain/LeDuc's 5th place Nebelhorn FS today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3IQGi-2-3U
They set new 2 ISU personal bests -- 120.88 (FS) and 176.35 (total) -- and placed 7th overall.

Laiken Lockley/Keenan Prochnow didn't skate quite as well in Zagreb as they did in Riga; they placed 5th for the second time in their second JGP.
Sarah Feng/TJ Nyman made their JGP and international debut together and moved up to 8th overall with a very respectable FS, landing side-by-side 3S close together with good unison and 3T+2T+2T (he didn't land his 3T as smoothly as usual and had to do a 3-turn between his double toe loops) as well as a throw 3S: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIIu2Awv7zk

 

[feraina]

I don't know why C/LD insist on the 3F in the SP (which I don't recall them ever landing cleanly) when they do the 3 loop and 3S in the LP and reasonably successfully. Ashley was much better with her edge jumps than toe jumps even in her best singles days. I wish they would just focus on their 3R and 3S.

 

[pairskatingfan]

Yes, I remember the hooked landings causing her rotational problems in her singles days as well. Better to go for the lower value jump and land it clean.

 

[Spiralgraph]

Well I got my wish for C/L That was a clean performance by USA standards at least. I don't care for their music, but they performed it well. I hope they keep improving.

 

[Sylvia]

Junior pairs updates - this was just posted in the Canadian Pairs news thread:

Marvaldi & Villeneuve are on the Quebec sectional list too in junior pairs. I guess they decided to switch countries.

Gabriella holds dual citizenship through her mother/coach, Isabelle Brasseur, and they have decided to compete in/for Canada (reportedly a better option than trying to get U.S. citizenship for Daniel V.).
Siblings Katherina & Nicolas Frantz also have opted to enter Canadian qualifying and are registered to compete Nov. 3-5 in Championnats « A » de la section Québec, along with Marvaldi/Villeneuve, in junior pairs.

The new U.S. junior pair team of Nadine Wang/Spencer Akira Howe (USA/JPN dual citizen) who are training in Montreal, debuted at Souvenir Georges-Éthier in Beauport, Quebec earlier today -- link to their SP protocols: https://www.patinage.qc.ca/resultats-competitions/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/SGE17_14_DET.pdf
I've been informed that Wang/Howe plan to compete out of the Eastern section (Nadine competed as a Junior in the North Atlantic region last year and placed 12th of 14 at Eastern Sectionals).

 

[her grace]

Current ISU Season Best Scores for senior American Pairs

11 186.08 Alexa SCIMECA KNIERIM / Chris KNIERIM USA ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic
12 181.40 Chelsea LIU / Brian JOHNSON USA ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic
17 176.38 Marissa CASTELLI / Mervin TRAN USA ISU CS Autumn Classic International
18 176.35 Ashley CAIN / Timothy LEDUC USA ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy
23 168.47 Haven DENNEY / Brandon FRAZIER USA ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic
26 165.36 Deanna STELLATO / Nathan BARTHOLOMAY USA ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic
31 158.10 Jessica PFUND / Joshua SANTILLAN USA ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy
40 146.86 Jessica CALALANG / Zack SIDHU USA ISU CS Autumn Classic International
44 134.25 Erika SMITH / AJ REISS USA ISU CS Ondrej Nepela Trophy

Castelli/Tran and Liu/Johnson should get a second senior B. Cain/LeDuc already had two senior Bs. Calalang/Sidhu and Stellato/Bartholomay each have a second senior B coming up.

 

[olympic]

The teams standing out to me in the list above are Liu/Johnson and Pfund/Santillan. Both took a leap forward in their capabilities: P/S performing a competent 3twist w/ levels is just great to see. The LP for Cain/LeDuc at Nebelhorn is really a step up, too. Ash has a habit of landing low on the throws. I wonder why.

ETA - Despite mistakes, C/L are making a statement for the 2nd spot at '18 Worlds. With Haven's injury, K/O out, and the fact they have pulled even in SB totals w/ C/T (whom IMO the USFSA ranks behind C/L), they could get that spot.

 

[VGThuy]

C/L will probably get that second spot, even if C/T places ahead of them at Nationals just going by what the USFS decided to do last year.

 

[olympic]

Oh, BTW, how involved is Mozer in C/L's training?? She was there at the boards while they skated at Nebelhorn and in the K&C. Is she coach to Tarasova/Morozov, and just there because of that?

 

[levineismine]

C/LD spent 3 weeks of summer camp with Mozer in Italy, and again the week and a half between Lombardia and Nebelhorn. She was at the boards at practice too both al Lombardia and Nebelhorn.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Oh, BTW, how involved is Mozer in C/L's training?? She was there at the boards while they skated at Nebelhorn and in the K&C. Is she coach to Tarasova/Morozov, and just there because of that?

I noticed that too, and thought the exact same thing

But they did spend time with her during the summer for training.

I remember the photo of the shirtless men of T&M, C&L and Harley! Beefy!!!!

I do assume she gets some coaching credit for C&L

 

[RoseRed]

I noticed that too, and thought the exact same thing

But they did spend time with her during the summer for training.

I remember the photo of the shirtless men of T&M, C&L and Harley! Beefy!!!!

I do assume she gets some coaching credit for C&L

On their ISU bios, their coaches are listed as : P. and D. Cain, N. Mozer, V. Zhovnirski

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks for boiling the issue down to it's essence @VIETgrlTerifa in your #1080 post responding to @Domshabfan! That's it in a nutshell. I saw your response after completing my below thoughts.

Why, the quality of US pairs has been abysmal, why should they get the spot when the lost out based on the rules, nothing so far this year or last has shown that thei performance was a fluke. I feel the same way as Russian ice dance third spot, they don’t deserve it, let other teams get an opportunity to qualify a team.

You know, there's another way of looking at this. While the U.S. lags behind in successful pairs teams, it's not for lack of talent. And the U.S. does have a decent history of doing pretty well in pairs up to 2002, especially considering Russian domination since the 1960s. I've been doing research, which is fairly easy to conduct online.

The problems have been discussed often, but it boils down to the need for better coaching; the need for young teams that form to stick, or to put teams together more judiciously in the hopes they will stay together; managing injuries better/ preventing injuries; better supporting teams financially so they are able to afford sufficient training time; greater interest and motivation by U.S. fed in developing their pairs division. And let's face it, the only way to improve is to have the opportunity to compete often!

There are promising pair teams with potential in the U.S. but they tend to get stuck in a bottleneck (if they even stay together long enough). Meanwhile some pair teams in the second and third tiers from other countries aren't necessarily significantly better than U.S. teams. The difference is that teams e.g., such as Ziegler/Kiefer, and Della-Monica/Guarise when they were green and not that good starting out, had the chance to go to Worlds every year and compete and learn and gain recognition with the judges, and above all slowly improve while getting to go to Worlds every year. They were able to build momentum, and not have enormous pressure placed on them at their Nationals (because of less competitive depth in their countries).

A U.S. team which has stayed together for awhile and who have shown great promise: Calalang/Sidhu have unfortunately experienced a great many setbacks in their development over the past several years due to Zach battling back problems. Pfund/Santillan have been battling injuries and lack of funds for sufficient training time. It becomes a vicious cycle wherein they struggle to improve, making one step forward and two steps back one season, and one step forward with 3 steps back the next season. P/S showed great promise in the first season and they've fought valiantly against a number of setbacks. I root for them to succeed.

Last season was unfortunate for U.S. pairs with top teams and mid-level teams injured. There were new promising pairings who showed steady improvement, and yet some other good teams with weaknesses that haven't improved. And a number of up-and-coming skaters in seniors who faced injury setbacks and resultant slowing of their development. Many promising U.S. juniors continue to split-up every season.

I would ask that everyone take a look at GoldenSkate's new interview with James/Cipres of France and listen carefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7Lyke6pE5Q
It's very eye-opening to realize that even a good team like J/C can wander around in the wilderness for many years working hard and trying to get better, but it's a tough and a slow process with so many factors involved in trying to make it to the next level. Again, they were at least fortunate that being in a country with less competitive depth, they've been able to go to Worlds every year and improve incrementally. And then they were lucky enough and good enough and had paid enough dues and put in the hard work consistently to end up finding magic with the right coaching team.

U.S. pairs skaters face enormous challenges in addition to the ones already mentioned. One of the biggest challenges is the negative perception of them that just never seems to stop, plus pressure and over-expectations, coupled with a lack of enough good pairs coaches. And the rampant politics involved in scoring. And issues with jumping elements for many teams. However to be honest, it was largely the injuries and the way the ISU limited the pairs field and the cut-off after the sp at Worlds that deep-sixed our two teams' chances at salvaging two pairs spots for the Olympics. And that's true also because pairs teams from other countries are improving across the board. This adds another challenge for our top pairs to be competitive enough to break through and to do well enough in the standings for nabbing enough spots to allow U.S. teams the chance to make it to Worlds. If you can't compete, you can't significantly improve.

IMO, U.S. pairs have enough decent teams to at least consistently maintain two spots at Worlds. But if they are deep-sixed by the rules, politics and negative perceptions, that only adds to the obstacles they have to overcome. I agree our U.S. pairs were not good enough at 2017 Worlds even despite the rules going against them. But both teams were hampered due to injury setbacks, loss of momentum and development progress, and loss of training time due to recovering from injury. Under those conditions, Alexa & Chris performed as well as they could and the judges received them fairly well due to them having some established rep from their boffo quad-twist, which they cautiously have to build back to performing.

I truly believe there is not a single pair from US that deserves it over 6 or 7 teams that are competing this week in Germany for a spot at olympics. At least, let others qualify a team.

Yeah well, apparently you subjectively fancy other teams over U.S. pairs teams. Enjoy the skaters who make you happy.

 

[olympic]

I think when comparing US pairs to those abroad, one has to consider each US pair on an individual basis because there are variety of reasons for success (or lack thereof). One example is C/T. They have wonderful SS and do these amazing TR, but w/o mastering the SBS triples and throws themselves, and even have shaky twists. Maybe it would have been beneficial to have the elements down before adding the TR.

Injury and lack of funding is a good example of what is hurting P/S.

Haven had a devastating injury that she is still recovering from and it is affecting basic jumps like the 2A. IT seems like Tarah is in the same boat.

SK/K are developing slowly but surely. However, they can't seem to get past the inability to land clean SBS jumps. I an syre ut takes a psychological toll after a while.

 

[clairecloutier]

Latest blog post from Jessica Pfund/Josh Santillan:

http://www.joshica.net/blog/uncategorized/midseasonprogress/

 

[aftershocks]

^^ That's a very revealing and detailed blog post by Joshica. Thanks for sharing @clairecloutier. Written by Jessica apparently. It's mind-boggling the trouble they went through with an established seamstress/costume designer who they'd worked with before. After sending their deposits and receiving nothing but frustration, I sure hope they got their deposit money back. That's terrible that a person in that line of business would not have just been up front and sent all of their money back earlier on and told them she could not meet the time frame, or whatever it was! I'm so glad for Jess & Josh that friends and coaches came to their rescue.

Jessica's post (like the recent GS interview with James/Cipres) points out so much what skaters have to deal with on a daily basis which many fans fail to realize and understand. We expect them to be 100% and on the ball at every competition, when in reality, there's usually so much they have to overcome to be fit, to be prepared and even just to get to the competition with their equipment and costumes intact. Life is full of stresses, and it doesn't go easy on anyone, not even athletes. I guess especially not athletes. But then they go out there and try to put all the problems behind them and perform and give pleasure to fans, or at least strive their best to reach that goal of freedom and magic on the ice.

Good luck to Joshica!