U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[clairecloutier]

Thanks for the heads up, Claire! I see that Mervin left an awesome message of support

Yeah, several messages from other U.S. pairs skaters too. Nice to see!

 

[Jayar]

USFS can't win. They start promoting a team, and they get hammered. They don't promote a team, they get hammered. The bottom line is that Cain and LeDuc are showing a lot of potential, and they are both committed to the sport. What I know is, if I saw potential in a team or skater and that team or skater were committed, I would be doing my best to help them. Giving them the opportunity to earn more cash helps them a lot (LeDuc is paying for his skating on his own, IIRC), and that money will go a long way in helping them train. Even if they do not make the Olympic team, they are being set up to succeed beyond just next season. There could be quite a few top teams who retire, and if they do, Cain and LeDuc could be top 6 in the World very quickly. Makes good sense to me to prepare them for moving US pairs skating forward. And I really do hope that Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim stick around for at least one season beyond the Olympics.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the issue is that like it or not C/T placed higher than them at Nationals so all of this promotion of C/L, while understandable, is also resulting in what some think is a clear message being sent to C/T. Some people might think it's justified, but some are arguing let's not ignore what's happening here. In the end, what kind of message is that really sending to the U.S. pairs team and all the accusations that the fed plays favorites?

 

[DimaToe]

Since this is at the end of the day a results driven sport, when was the last time the U.S. didn't give an age eligible national silver medalist any post nationals assignments?

There's an argument for both sides, but I just hope this keeps on fueling C/T's fire and that they are the national champions next season so that USFS has that pleasant surprise to deal with

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I still can't get into C/T that Journey program never enthused me, probably because it was never skated clean.
If the USFS has promoted C/L over C/T they only have themselves to blame. Start landing jumps, start skating like you really want it, are ready to become National champs, not buckling under their own nerves.

I do agree. Im hoping the Journey program will be retired now....

C&T IMO have too many falls, especially for the caliber of their resumes.

C&L may not have the best GOE etc but they usually are upright and are going after ambitious elements... I think given the time to develop that C&T have had so far that they will be doing very well.

@Jayar I agree with every word you said a few posts above mine!!

Also, this isnt the biggest of deals but at Nationals at least C&L won one portion of the competition, the SP. C&T didnt win any portion but C&L showed they can go out there and win one segment (after only being together for months). Not a big deal but still admirable.

One more thing.. it is fascinating to see C&L go after things that are unique... their matching lines, spirals, interesting layback and I spin in the combo, very difficult jump combinations. I could see how USFSA would want to invest heavily in such a team. The USA hasnt had a team with such characteristics. I could see USFSA saying to themselves here is a team that is so different and unique with great potential, when will we have a team like this again? Lets put a few more eggs in this basket.

 

[MrMystery]

I really, really do feel for C&T, but that said, I do support the actions USFS has been taken. At the end of the day, the U.S. is very, very weak in pairs, and I think they SHOULD be pushing a team that shows some serious promise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that C&L are the second coming of Christ, but they are probably the most promising U.S. team in a decade and their biggest attribute is showing consistency in their jumping elements, and the ability to turn out fairly clean programs event after event. Someone thing not many U.S. teams can do.

Kudos to S-K&K for skating two great competitions after being off the ice with a horrible illness. I fully expect them to (deservedly) be the lone U.S. team next year at the Olympics, and I expect C&L to join them at Worlds, and then lead the way into the next quad.

For C&T, as I said, I feel for them, but if they want USFS to start backing them, they need to start skating some clean programs...

 

[jiejie]

In the end, what kind of message is that really sending to the U.S. pairs team and all the accusations that the fed plays favorites?

Short version of the message being sent to C/T by USFS is this: Shape up or ship out. Long version: Two partners, each with extensive experience at high-level international pairs (one a former Worlds medalist), get together and in THREE SEASONS, can't produce decent results by now. Internationally, their scores are perpetually stuck in the 170's. More alarming is that they are still inconsistent on some of the basic critical elements--the SBS jumps and the throws just seem to elude them. At this point, this shouldn't be happening. It's one thing to skate well and still be beaten by better teams, it's another thing to keep shooting yourself in the foot and not maximizing what you've got.

I had high hopes for this pair when they first teamed up, but as of this season's conclusion, I just don't think that this combo is going to work out. I cannot fault USFS for looking at their options and deciding to trim their losses and support more promising pair(s). Placing 2nd at Nationals (in a depleted field) barely ahead of a brand new 3rd place team, and with problematic jumps and throws, was not an achievement. C/T have not been "wronged" or wuzrobbed by the USFS. They had a lot of control over their own destiny and they have just about blown it. If they don't start out their next season strongly, I think that will be the nail in the coffin as far as having a productive international career skating together for the USA.

 

[Yazmeen]

I think it's a combination of C/T still not getting their act together, and the fact that Mervin is ineligible for the Olympics. That's 2 strikes against them for 2018, unfortunately. As much as I like their pairing, USFS has to concentrate heavily on next year and the Olympics. And they are simply a nonfactor for Korea.

 

[semogal]

I beginning to wonder why USFS even bothered to hold a pairs event at US Nationals. They ignore the results and make assignments based on committee deliberations.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

I don't know why they're so concerned about the Olympics when we only have one spot now, and there's a heavy favorite for it already.

 

[clairecloutier]

The theory that Cain/LeDuc are getting certain assignments due to their Olympic eligibility is just that--a theory.

I've yet to hear anyone cite USFSA on this.

 

[el henry]

Speaking of Jim Peterson's safe music choices, has anyone posted this yet? A tweet from Nate Bartholomay about his and Deanna's programs:

https://twitter.com/NateBartholomay/status/850010061044760576/photo/1

SP: "Eleanor Rigby" Joshua Bell, Rohene Ward, choreo

LP: "One" and "Streets have no name" by U2, Mark Pillay choreo

Has Rohene done choreo for pairs before? I'm getting about this one .....

 

[Spiralgraph]

If Rohene can do choreography for ice dancers, and he has with Chock/Bates I have no doubt he can do choreography for pairs.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

I think Rohene did Oltmanns/Santillan''s SP to Beneath Your Beautiful which I loved.

 

[Frau Muller]

.......
The bottom line is that Cain and LeDuc are showing a lot of potential.......

True, although I bet that NBC marketing needs to find a tallish blonde "bombshell" skater to take Gracie Gold's place in the advertising line-up may have a little something to do with it.

 

[DDNatalia]

It must be so disheartening to be a US Pair skater now.

 

[Yazmeen]

Pardon me, but I can't blame everything that is going wrong with US Pairs on USFS. We sent 2 competent teams to Worlds. And one of them massively screwed up and put us into this lousy position. I hold Denney/Frazier (and their coaching) at least as responsible for the mess that we are in as I do USFS. I realize Denney was coming off of injury also, but I can't excuse them after Alexa and Chris came back with so much going against them and did as well as they did.

 

[Dobre]

True, although I bet that NBC marketing needs to find a tallish blonde "bombshell" skater to take Gracie Gold's place in the advertising line-up may have a little something to do with it.

When NBC starts caring about pairs . . .

Honestly, NBC has Madison-frigging-Hubbell and doesn't show her except at Nationals so I seriously doubt they give a rip about Ashley Cain.

 

[aftershocks]

Cain/LeDuc got assigned to World Team Trophy. Over Castelli/Tran. Which kind of ticks me off. . . it's as if USFS are just telling C/T to give up and retire already.

I really hope C/T will stay together, even though I was harsh on them about what I think they are up against earlier in this thread. For me, C/T are one of the best stylistic teams in the world and they move together really well on the ice with a lot of brio. The problem has been their jumping difficulties. They didn't start out as inconsistent when their partnership began. It just seems that there is a problem that has not been adequately addressed. They should consider changing coaches if they can't be more of a priority and if their current coaches can't help them solve their tech problems. Unsurprisingly, they have seemed to lose confidence in themselves over the course of their partnership, instead of building confidence. The bottom line is that they had an opportunity this season to do something (with D/F not 100% in their comeback; Scinerims out; a couple of new teams coming together; K/O struggling with Tarah's injury; some older and some up-and-coming teams not making much progress). Obviously, C/T weren't fully prepared to make a strong statement. And the few opportunities available have dwindled further. I root for them and I wish them good luck. M&M, remember why you partnered, and please stay together for the reasons you came together in the first place.

I am drawn to both C/T and C/L among all of the U.S. teams. And I enjoyed D/F at Junior Worlds and I was excited about their potential, especially after their 2014-2015 season. They have run into a lot of bad luck since then. As I said before, D/F did not seem nervous at Worlds. They just seemed to have a lot of adrenalin and excitement coursing through them in wanting to do well. I don't know why some fans are judging D/F so harshly. They deserve kind words and encouragement. Haven went through a lot just to walk again. Hopefully, this season's experience will be one that makes them stronger. Brandon definitely made improvements in his understanding of line and presentation. I think Haven needs to express herself more, and they need to sharpen their tech skills and develop more of a spark in their on-ice connection.

There is nothing that can be done about athletic/competitive mistakes once they happen. The results can not be changed. Brandon and Haven deserve support from everyone to keep their spirits up and go forward with self-belief. Hopefully Haven's leg gets stronger, that will be key. It's been hard for them with their coaching changes, the injury & rehab, and then going into a comeback season with a new, young coaching team who are just starting out. I hope they regroup and then take time to pace themselves and work on improving sbs jumps especially and get back their feel on the throws. They've always had great lifts, and their twist is good. Polishing up their skating skills is essential. USFS should support them in getting as much competition under their belts as possible with senior B assignments and at least one GP.

Tarah of K/O has a lot of determination and Danny partners her so well. As has been discussed, they need to polish their skating skills, increase their speed and difficulty, and hopefully also get back to the consistency they have been known for. Cain/LeDuc need to futher maximize their assets (great line, wonderful connection, good performance skills, consistent & difficult sbs jumps). And then further polish their blade skills and ice coverage. It was reported that they are increasing their difficulty on lifts, and their technique/timing on throws, which is necessary. I love their sbs layback spins from early last season and I wish we could see those again, even if only in exhibition. For all the teams, picking the right music and choreo makes a difference. I look forward to seeing Deanna/Nate's progress. All credit to Alexa/Chris and kudos for how they came through a tough season that went far beyond athletic competition!

I hope all of the U.S. teams are somehow brought together even if under the radar for pep talk sessions, training workshops, and maybe even some intense summer practice competitions. They all need to put aside the disappointments, and the gloom and doom expressed by fans and go for it, in the effort to get better for themselves, and in spite of the dastardly sport and its dearth of opportunities. There is always life, love and happiness around the bend. Like Brandon's fave quote: Choose happiness!

Has it been reported that more teams are 'flocking' to John Z after his coaching crew's success with James/Cipres of France?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Cain/Leduc had a relatively monster SP score, and it won a prize for best performance at Nationals. That was the closest thing to world class the US Pairs had this season, with Scimeca/Knierim's illness and Denney still on the comeback trail.

 

[aftershocks]

In the end, what kind of message is that really sending to the U.S. pairs team and all the accusations that the fed plays favorites?

In the end, it doesn't matter what kind of message USFS is sending, or whether they are even intending to send any kind of message. It's C/T who need to figure out the message that they intend to send with their skating. While there's always a lot that USFS can be blamed for, I doubt in this case that it's really about an attempt to 'play favorites.' Marissa has been very well liked and encouraged by USFS over the years, and she has been supported in her partnering with Mervin. There are a lot of factors involved. The chief factor is as many have pointed out: Despite their overall lovely qualities as a team, C/T have been together for three seasons, and have not progressed technically, specifically with their jumping skills. This problematic concern has to be figured out and resolved asap. OTOH, Cain/LeDuc have shown steadily building promise in only 7 months together. (Granted that C/T could not skate internationally until their second full season, due to having to wait for Canada's release of Mervin).

This one does not logically seem to be about favoritism. This seems to be more about overall performance results, among other factors. Even despite C/T being in second at Nationals ahead of C/L, as @AngieNikodinovLove mentioned, C/L won the sp and were 3rd in the fp. While C/T were 2nd in the fp, they placed 4th in the sp. The overall difference in total scores between the two teams was only a few points. In their third season, C/T should be showing more confidence and technical ability to prevail over teams with less experience.

And I say this as a fan of both C/T and C/L.

 

[olympic]

Has there ever been a consensus as to why US pairs lag other countries? The US has facilities, coaches, a tradition of good skaters, etc.

 

[gkelly]

There are probably several different reasons that contribute, so it would probably hard to get a consensus as to what is the most important reason.

I'll throw another one into the mix: The US has quite a few pretty-good pair teams. Good enough to compete at an international level, competitive with each other, but not good enough to compete for top international medals.

So one bad skate at Nationals can set back a team's momentum for a whole season or more afterward in terms of assignments. And it's harder to come back from a setback, whether due to health problems or just a bad day at Nationals.

In smaller countries that only have one or two senior-level pairs, those teams will continue to get opportunities after a bad day.

In other countries with deep fields, teams that can't keep up with their country's top teams will also fall by the wayside. But a top team who has already proven medal worthiness will maintain momentum, and several teams at that level will push each other.

Now, why the top US teams so rarely reach the highest skill level is a different question.

 

[clairecloutier]

Cain/Leduc had a relatively monster SP score, and it won a prize for best performance at Nationals. That was the closest thing to world class the US Pairs had this season, with Scimeca/Knierim's illness and Denney still on the comeback trail.

I think this is a debatable point. Cain/LeDuc's SP score at Nationals was good, but still below 70, and that was at Nationals to boot, where we all know scores can be inflated. Cain/LeDuc had a 69.33 at U.S. Nationals. Several other U.S. pairs had rather comparable scores in international competition, where scores are less inflated: Knierims 69.10 at 4CCs, Castelli/Tran 67.50 Autumn Classic, Denney/Frazier 67.29 Skate America. Cain/LeDuc were excellent in their Nationals SP, but they're not the only U.S. pair to have a strong SP this season.

As to long programs. Going into Worlds, both Denney/Frazier's and the Knierims' season's-best LPs were in the Top 15 (125.36, 124.81). Those scores aren't GREAT, but certainly quite decent, and competitive with mid-level pairs internationally (if not the top teams). Cain/LeDuc's best LP so far is 115.58 (SB 23).

I'll throw another one into the mix: The US has quite a few pretty-good pair teams. Good enough to compete at an international level, competitive with each other, but not good enough to compete for top international medals.

We do have a fair number of "pretty-good" teams, which is both good and bad. Good, because it shows a certain basic level of competence; bad, because it becomes harder for each team to stand out, get supported, continue to get opportunities, etc.

At the same time, I feel we shouldn't take our "pretty-good" teams for granted so much. They're still mostly the best we've got, aside from the Knierims. As much as people may be somewhat disappointed with Castelli/Tran or Denney/Frazier or Kayne/O'Shea right now, if you were to take those teams away (via splits or further injury), the U.S. senior pairs ranks would become quite frighteningly thin. With not many strong junior teams on the horizon to take over. Besides, there is always that possibility for a "pretty-good" team to make the jump to "good." Marchei/Hotarek and James/Cipres are examples of teams who have made that jump this year, to some extent. It is possible.

 

[Jammers]

It's too bad about the jumping problems of C/T because they have by far the best skating skills of any US Pairs team. S/K have improved their skating skills over the last 3 years but teams like K/O really need to work on their power and speed.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think this is a debatable point. Cain/LeDuc's SP score at Nationals was good, but still below 70, and that was at Nationals to boot, where we all know scores can be inflated. Cain/LeDuc had a 69.33 at U.S. Nationals. Several other U.S. pairs had rather comparable scores in international competition, where scores are less inflated: Knierims 69.10 at 4CCs, Castelli/Tran 67.50 Autumn Classic, Denney/Frazier 67.29 Skate America. Cain/LeDuc were excellent in their Nationals SP, but they're not the only U.S. pair to have a strong SP this season.

Mordovian Ornament, anyone?

The Knierim's weren't at US Nationals, and the choice wasn't between them for the lone spot from that competition. I don't think anyone compares any other US pair to those two, particularly since Sochi.

Nationals inflation usually takes two flavors: USFS favors a skater and/or the judges mark to the criteria but that is not replicated by international judges or expected from them for a variety of reasons. I don't know why USFS would favor Cain/Leduc particularly: her parents aren't Frank Carroll -- they aren't even Ron Ludington or John Nicks -- and they didn't even break 57 in the SP in their three CS attempts. There was inflation, it was of the second variety. It was one of the few programs that caught people by the throat.

Castelli/Tran earned 67.50 at Autumn Classic International. They dropped significantly (for Pairs) in their two GP events, including the home event:

• Skate America: 61.17
• Trophee de France: 59.26

Denney/Frazier almost duplicated their strong mid-high 60's top SP score:

• Nepela: 59.66
• Skate America: 67.39
• Skate Canada: 66.50
• Golden Spin: 57.40

While you have a point about Denney/Frazier -- Cain/Leduc didn't come close to them until being within a point of them at 4C's -- ACI isn't on my radar as meaningful WRT elite international competition, and C/T didn't make close to the impression there that C/L did at Nationals when the pressure was on. Also, a perception of "world class" is often comparative, and C/L were being compared to their competition, not Tarasova/Morozov or Sui/Han, for example, and, possible, SK/K in absentia.

 

[clairecloutier]

It's fine if you personally thought Cain/LeDuc were great at Natls. But I just take issue with the comment suggesting that that was the only "world-class" performance from a u.s. pair this season (whatever that means).

Also, while you may not respect Autumn Classic, I'm pretty sure it was a CS event this year, and it attracted a decent roster of pairs, with the headliners being Seguin/Bilodeau and James/Cipres.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't have to personally think Cain/LeDuc were great at Nationals: the judges did, and they won the EDI performance award for the best Pairs program. That generally means they had quite the impact at Nationals.

So is USIFSC, and I don't take that particularly seriously; Mordovian Ornament was also a CS event and has become a joke as far as scoring is concerned.. S/B and J/C are good skaters, but this year was a break-out year for J/C after a coaching switch, and S/B were coming back from injury. C/T had their chance to outshine them, but didn't: instead they scored 27-30 points lower than J/C and S/B in the FS. If ACI holds the same importance to USFS as it does to you, that wouldn't exactly instill confidence in C/T.

 

[Winnipeg]

I thought the US qualified 2 pairs teams for the 2018 Olys. It looks like only one has been qualified.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The US qualified two Pairs teams for 2018 Worlds. According to the Special Regs, only 16 Pairs teams can qualify for the Olympics at prior Worlds. They start with countries that qualified two or three to 2018 Worlds. This year, that was 17 spots worth: three countries at three (CAN, CHN, RUS), and four countries at two (FRA, GER, ITA, USA). By their definition (undefined) of "last" to earn those Worlds spots, countries do not qualify all of the Worlds spots for the Olympics. The US was deemed "last," and, therefore, lost a spot, to keep the quota at 16.

You can't earn additional spots at the Fall qualifier (Nebelhorn) if you've qualified spots at prior Worlds.