U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[gkelly]

I think it's pretty meaningless to debate whether X is more artistic than Y . . . especially since we're probably all using different definitions/criteria for what constitutes artistry.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

As far as Hanyu being that special artistically, I do not think that's the case.

Well, that's not the first time you're wrong about something and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

You really can't stand it that he's the rock star of skating, can you? And that so many of the figure skating elite consider him the best skater ever?

And speaking of best ever, although Toller Cranston's skating has held up very well over the years, John Curry's skating has not. It's clear the poor guy wanted to be a ballet dancer, not a figure skater. I had fond memories of him too until I actually took the time to watch some of his old skating videos recently. What was ground-breaking in 1976 looks like parody today. I found it very painful to watch his programs.

Stop living in the past. I'm a baby boomer too and lived through those skating years. The kids skating today are every bit as good or better than those of yesteryear.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Well, that's not the first time you're wrong about something and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

You really can't stand it that he's the rock star of skating, can you? And that so many of the figure skating elite consider him the best skater ever?

.......... I'm a baby boomer too and lived through those skating years. The kids skating today are every bit as good or better than those of yesteryear.

I'm a boomer too and don't relate to Hanyu much either. He's boyish, ardent. The skating is smooth - I guess very good technically. But, without more emotional range it falls flat. As someone around a while you know how often skaters get labeled the best, unbeatable,etc.. Always someone out there willing to say it. A few skaters hold on to their legend status - Yagudin. Most are appreciated as a step in the evolution of the sport. In my book Hanyu is more the later.

 

[skateboy]

The kids skating today are every bit as good or better than those of yesteryear.

Now THIS I agree with in spades.

In fact, I believe this is the most exciting time we have ever had in men's figure skating.

 

[aftershocks]

It's all right, we'll be back to the regularly scheduled Max-bashing next week.

And/or the ever-popular Johnny-bashing by the usual suspects, eh!

 

[dr.frog]

Just to clarify, I'm not making any argument about whether Jason is "artistic" or not, or trying to qualify that with "choreographed". I'm thinking about the technical aspects of designing a program for maximum impact & effectiveness, especially in an Olympic season where your most important performance of the year is going to be in front of a huge audience who largely are not American and are not obsessed skating fans.

Generally speaking, the skater's goal in this situation should be to bring the audience into the performance and then punctuate it with a big TA-DA!! ending. Judges also like to see programs that project joy and/or total confidence in skating -- again, a remark of Scott Hamilton's, describing her 2008 program as "my name is Shizuka and I am here to win". I also think of that masterpiece that Jeremy Abbott skated at 2010 Nationals.

When I saw "Riverdance" for the first time at the Broadmoor Open 4 years ago, I knew it was going to be a winner and thought it would likely put Jason on the Olympic team even though he was a really dark horse at that time. #1 was the incredible difficulty of the choreography and the quality of the spins, which I was sure no other US man would match at that time. #2 was that the program had a particularly effective structure: starting out with building tension and then exploding into a joyous ending where the audience could clap and stomp along with the music. And it was *memorable*, which I can't say about either of this year's programs.

About Jason's SP specifically, I think it is a safe bet that virtually none of the people in the arena in Pyeongchang will have seen "Hamilton" on Broadway, and maybe only a small number are familiar with the plot of the show or context of the particular song Jason is skating to. And a story about American patriots from the 18th century probably isn't going to resonate deeply with a broad international audience. (I remember another quote about ice dance from years back: if you need a press release to explain your program theme, it's probably a bad idea.) The music needs to stand on its own and have appeal simply as music, and this piece doesn't do that. Even if some folks watching on TV in the US love it, skaters say that it's really not helpful to the performance when the audience in the arena is totally indifferent.

 

[Tavi]

Just to clarify, I'm not making any argument about whether Jason is "artistic" or not, or trying to qualify that with "choreographed". I'm thinking about the technical aspects of designing a program for maximum impact & effectiveness, especially in an Olympic season where your most important performance of the year is going to be in front of a huge audience who largely are not American and are not obsessed skating fans.

Generally speaking, the skater's goal in this situation should be to bring the audience into the performance and then punctuate it with a big TA-DA!! ending. Judges also like to see programs that project joy and/or total confidence in skating -- again, a remark of Scott Hamilton's, describing her 2008 program as "my name is Shizuka and I am here to win". I also think of that masterpiece that Jeremy Abbott skated at 2010 Nationals.

When I saw "Riverdance" for the first time at the Broadmoor Open 4 years ago, I knew it was going to be a winner and thought it would likely put Jason on the Olympic team even though he was a really dark horse at that time. #1 was the incredible difficulty of the choreography and the quality of the spins, which I was sure no other US man would match at that time. #2 was that the program had a particularly effective structure: starting out with building tension and then exploding into a joyous ending where the audience could clap and stomp along with the music. And it was *memorable*, which I can't say about either of this year's programs.

About Jason's SP specifically, I think it is a safe bet that virtually none of the people in the arena in Pyeongchang will have seen "Hamilton" on Broadway, and maybe only a small number are familiar with the plot of the show or context of the particular song Jason is skating to. And a story about American patriots from the 18th century probably isn't going to resonate deeply with a broad international audience. (I remember another quote about ice dance from years back: if you need a press release to explain your program theme, it's probably a bad idea.) The music needs to stand on its own and have appeal simply as music, and this piece doesn't do that. Even if some folks watching on TV in the US love it, skaters say that it's really not helpful to the performance when the audience in the arena is totally indifferent.

I agree Jason's SP does not work right now, and whether it can be made to work remains to be seen. But you're assuming that your reaction to both the SP and the FS is universal, and that's not necessarily the case. For example, I happen to disagree with you that the FS music is boring.

ETA and I also disagree with you and Karne that people - especially people for whom English is a second language - will be carried away or turned off by the English lyrics of a song. I'm willing to bet that I'm one of the few people here who know what "Nessun Dorma" means, what the aria is about, and what the opera's plot is. People respond to the music and the voice if they don't know the words or plot. Whether Jason's Hamilton selection is tuneful and catchy enough - and works well enough with the choreo - to involve the audience is the real question, not whether people care about American history. If it gets a thumbs down at Champs camp, I'm sure they'll fix or replace it.

 

[misskarne]

I remember the whole "Jason is not an artist but just a dancer" thing back in the 2014-2015 season when people were all about Joshua Farris. I remember those two skaters were being compared and contrasted with some saying Josh was more of a "real" artist, while most Jason fans I remember argued both were artists and were just artists in different ways.

Mostly because Weir spent a good part of Josh's SP snarking about Max (who was late to his mixed zone interviews because he was excitedly watching Josh), and then part of Josh's FS snarking about Jason. Oh yes, I remember. Vividly.

And/or the ever-popular Johnny-bashing by the usual suspects, eh!

The difference being that Weir is a bitter, petty asshat, and Max is a sweetheart.

About Jason's SP specifically, I think it is a safe bet that virtually none of the people in the arena in Pyeongchang will have seen "Hamilton" on Broadway, and maybe only a small number are familiar with the plot of the show or context of the particular song Jason is skating to. And a story about American patriots from the 18th century probably isn't going to resonate deeply with a broad international audience.

Which is why I would rather Jason have used Wait for It, which is not only a great song in the context of the story, but even though it does have a little exposition in it (mostly surrounding Burr's feelings towards Hamilton), the song can stand alone, separate to the story. Everyone can relate to Wait for It on some level. Love doesn't discriminate/between the sinners and the saints/It takes and it takes and it takes/and we keep loving anyway...

 

[Vagabond]

mucho macho multiple quads

Gee, thanks, @aftershocks! I'm going to be hearing The Village People in the back of my mind for the rest of the day.

If I've gotta hear them, then at least let me not be alone in this!

Mucho macho quads
I gotta do some macho quads
Mucho macho quads
I gotta do some macho

​

 

[Mrs. P]

FWIW, South Koreans have familiarity with Lin-Manuel Miranda. A company brought a Korean version of his previous musical, "In the Heights" to Seoul (Jason mentioned in his YouTUbe video about the SP it was viewing a Chicago production of this musical that he became a fan of Lin-Manuel) in 2015 and it featured K-Pop idols/Korean hip-hop artists.

Here are a few rehearsal clips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcsujKwPA-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueVPdfTJfas

 

[Willin]

@Mrs. P At the same time, though, I wonder if Hamilton will be one of those shows that will be very country-specific? There are some musicals (We Will Rock You to Britain, Book of Mormon to the US) that are just too based on cultural preferences or country-specific knowledge. Seeing shows in SF, it's amazing to see how many foreign tourists drop $$$ to see the latest musicals and then get no enjoyment out of it because they lack cultural/historical knowledge (Book of Mormon stands out as I had a couple tour groups sitting around me, although Les Mis suffered similarly with a few Chinese tourists sitting behind me). That makes me wonder if Hamilton might be too America-specific to be popular in other countries like Korea. Even my friends from the UK don't know enough about the American Revolution to be really interested in it despite the good music. Then again, maybe Hamilton will transcend that problem?

As for Jason's artistry, the only issue I have is that he doesn't do more upbeat programs. I still connect to his softer, slower programs, but I think he really shines in programs like Riverdance where he can just be joyful and happy because that's just who he is. Also, he's not slow at all. This year he looks a bit slower compared to the past, but if you look at his ability to gather speed in other programs, it's absolutely insane.

 

[Tavi]

Thanks for those clips Mrs P - I lived in Washington Heights for years and it's so fun to see the Korean take on it! What I remember most: old men playing dominos on their front stoops on hot, humid summer nights, and guys cruising down Broadway in big old cars, stopping suddenly in the middle of the street to talk to friends, ignoring the traffic backing up behind them. It really was another world!

 

[Mrs. P]

@Willin - You make really good points, but I think the reason why Miranda has been such a transformative figure in the musical/Broadway/theater world is because of his ability to transcend what seems to be very culturally-narrow topics (i.e. Colonial American history/immigrant experience (i.e. In The Heights) through popular musical styles, i.e. hip hop.

I think that Jason's performance chops are up to the challenge -- and I think it's actually a pretty upbeat program.

Also I think Jason's never been that super slow IMO. He's not as speedy as some skaters, but seeing him live, that's not the case. I do think he's improved his skating skills and his speed/ice coverage is a lot better than it used to be. If he seems slow now, I think that's more reflective of the early state of his programs.

 

[Sylvia]

There's a clip floating around of Nathan's possible short program (choreographed by Shae) that he was practicing at Sun Valley today. It's on someone's personal IG - but it's public, so I'm assuming it's okay to post (let me know if it's not!!): [ETA: link to the original/first clip no longer works - it has since been re-uploaded to a new Instagram post]

Nathan's music sounds like this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugGN_Z1jPoM

"Nemesis" by Benjamin Clementine appears to be Nathan's SP music - 3 clips (a run through filmed at his Sun Valley practice) have been posted in the Programs/Choreographers thread: (ETA: link removed because all the Instagram posts have been taken down)

 

[el henry]

First, let me say I'm not sure if the Hamilton SP works because the sound quality of the vids I have seen has been less than illuminating, and the choreo in the first part leaves me confused. I do like the musical hook as I have heard it when I streamed it, and if "Wait for It" is an an all music piece, it may very well be better for Jason. I don't know. It's the last day of July, we will wait and see.

But I must say, as much as I love and adore my relatives, friends and co-workers in their 20s and 30s (who appear IME to be the most devoted fans of Hamilton), a deep and abiding interest in American history is not underlying their love for Hamilton. What they know about American history, they learned from Hamilton. They certainly didn't bring their knowledge *into* the show.

This is not a musical about American history. This is Lin-Manuel Miranda's latest musical. Saying you need American history to appreciate "Hamilton" is like saying you need to understand old Norse mythology to appreciate the Ride of the Valkyries, or have read Schiller to appreciate the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth.

Now will international audiences appreciate the *music* of Hamilton? That is the question....

 

[RoseRed]

First, let me say I'm not sure if the Hamilton SP works because the sound quality of the vids I have seen has been less than illuminating, and the choreo in the first part leaves me confused. I do like the musical hook as I have heard it when I streamed it, and if "Wait for It" is an an all music piece, it may very well be better for Jason. I don't know. It's the last day of July, we will wait and see.

But I must say, as much as I love and adore my relatives, friends and co-workers in their 20s and 30s (who appear IME to be the most devoted fans of Hamilton), a deep and abiding interest in American history is not underlying their love for Hamilton. What they know about American history, they learned from Hamilton. They certainly didn't bring their knowledge *into* the show.

This is not a musical about American history. This is Lin-Manuel Miranda's latest musical. Saying you need American history to appreciate "Hamilton" is like saying you need to understand old Norse mythology to appreciate the Ride of the Valkyries, or have read Schiller to appreciate the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth.

Now will international audiences appreciate the *music* of Hamilton? That is the question....

I agree with this. As a Canadian, I know very little about that part of American history, but I love listening to the music on Spotify. Actually I had heard a lot about Hamilton, but I ended up listening to it because I like Jonathan Groff, who played King George in the original Broadway cast.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think Brown has choreographed artistry in his programs, that is not the same as having true artistry. E.g. his freeskate consists of series of beautiful looking poises, one after another..., but that is not musical interpretation either. And his skating looks real slow!

Jason's skating is certainly not the fastest. He has good transitions but isn't particularly fast. Hanyu and Chan, on the other hand, have similar number and quality of transitions as Jason, but they skate many times faster than Jason. Especially in the step sequences, which is where you really see the skating skills, and it's a fact that Hanyu and Chan have by far the most difficult step sequences with steps and turns that are timed perfectly to the musical structure. Jason does as well...but he's not that fast.

 

[dr.frog]

Saying you need American history to appreciate "Hamilton" is like saying you need to understand old Norse mythology to appreciate the Ride of the Valkyries, or have read Schiller to appreciate the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth.

Now will international audiences appreciate the *music* of Hamilton? That is the question....

Wagner and Beethoven wrote music. Good music, in fact. But I'm not sure Jason's, er, soundtrack is actually "music", or just noises.

 

[Sylvia]

Short clips of Jason Brown skating to "Wait For It" on the TODAY Show back in late January: https://www.instagram.com/p/BP5bnvmA1ia/?taken-by=skate7k

I saw a very enjoyable Junior man's SP to "Wait For It" choreographed (I assume) by Jim Peterson during this year's Skate Detroit webcast and thought it was a very catchy, effective song - here's a photo of the skater in costume: https://www.instagram.com/p/BTuLFFYhOQQ/?hl=en&taken-by=jpcoach

 

[VGThuy]

Hamilton is amazing music. Not sure if it works for a 2:40 program. I think the opening tracks may have worked best. I still don't get a lot of the choreography in the SP because I'm not sure if it actually goes with the music and lyrics, but I respect Jason for thinking outside the box with this one.

 

[Karpenko]

I think it's pretty meaningless to debate whether X is more artistic than Y . . . especially since we're probably all using different definitions/criteria for what constitutes artistry.

Agree... but in Jason's case it's pretty clear, no?

Some people will never know what artistry is though, that's why it's easier for them to follow skating being a fan of the technical. That's where the "artistry is subjective" comes from in this case IMO. They just aren't creative people/fans and don't really get it, nor will they ever. Or they're really just gymnastics fans pretending to be skating fans. ( ) Quads and technical points are easier to understand for them.

 

[RoseRed]

Hamilton is amazing music. Not sure if it works for a 2:40 program. I think the opening tracks may have worked best. I still don't get a lot of the choreography in the SP because I'm not sure if it actually goes with the music and lyrics, but I respect Jason for thinking outside the box with this one.

I agree. I played "The Room Where it Happens" for my father, who isn't a hardcore fan, but has watched plenty of skating over the years and is very musical. His immediate reaction was that it could make a great program. I'm withholding judgement on whether it works for a SP or these are the right cuts however until I see a more finished version. As several people have said, Wait For It could work well. And Burn would be interesting (though more for Ladies or Dance).

 

[Tavi]

Wagner and Beethoven wrote music. Good music, in fact. But I'm not sure Jason's, er, soundtrack is actually "music", or just noises.

Just because something is good or great music doesn't mean it will work for skating. Tatsuki Machida's program to the Ninth is for me a perfect example - the music is just too big and IMO the choreo and skating didn't work with it at all.

Jason's FS music is not great music but neither is it noise. It's melodically pretty, it builds to a climax, and it's effective for its purpose - and IMO there's something to be said for that. It's not something I would sit down and listen to the way I would the Mozart Requiem. But IMO it works.

 

[dinakt]

Agree... but in Jason's case it's pretty clear, no?

Some people will never know what artistry is though, that's why it's easier for them to follow skating being a fan of the technical. That's where the "artistry is subjective" comes from in this case IMO. They just aren't creative people/fans and don't really get it, nor will they ever. Or they're really just gymnastics fans pretending to be skating fans. ( ) Quads and technical points are easier to understand for them.

Please be ironic

 

[misskarne]

I agree. I played "The Room Where it Happens" for my father, who isn't a hardcore fan, but has watched plenty of skating over the years and is very musical. His immediate reaction was that it could make a great program. I'm withholding judgement on whether it works for a SP or these are the right cuts however until I see a more finished version. As several people have said, Wait For It could work well. And Burn would be interesting (though more for Ladies or Dance).

I'm up for a goofy SOI/gala group number to The Ten Duel Commandments or Aaron Burr, Sir/My Shot.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Agree... but in Jason's case it's pretty clear, no?

Some people will never know what artistry is though, that's why it's easier for them to follow skating being a fan of the technical. That's where the "artistry is subjective" comes from in this case IMO. They just aren't creative people/fans and don't really get it, nor will they ever. Or they're really just gymnastics fans pretending to be skating fans. ( ) Quads and technical points are easier to understand for them.

Or they just don't like Jason's style. Artistry is in the eye of the beholder. Skating skills can be admired...but artistry is pretty subjective.

 

[Karpenko]

^ your post is like reading Korean, Russian cyrillic, and Japanese to me, all at the same time. I can't even process such a thought.

 

[aftershocks]

The difference being that Weir is a bitter, petty asshat, and Max is a sweetheart.

In your 'bitter, petty' opinion. Of course Max is a sweetheart who btw unlike you, admires and respects Johnny Weir. IMHO, Mr. Weir is neither bitter nor petty. He actually admits to having been a clueless 'asshat' at times as a rebellious young person. If Johnny hadn't revealed the story about US officials trying to make him not wear a costume because they thought he looked "too Russian" wearing it, 'which resulted in his 'asshat' reaction of pretending to be too ill to perform, then you'd surely find something else to b**ch about re Mr. Weir. He's really a sticky wicket for you in the way you seem to feel he has no redeeming qualities. And there's never any let up or reconsideration in your OTT angry view of Johnny, apparently. How you view him though is your problem, not his.

Well, that's not the first time you're wrong about something and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

You really can't stand it that he's the rock star of skating, can you? And that so many of the figure skating elite consider him the best skater ever?

Eh, the thing about it is that many of us are wrong about all manner of shizz on a number of occasions. It doesn't stop many of us from posting our opinions. As far as Yuzuru Hanyu, it never ceases to amaze how my sharing exactly how I feel in a balanced and evenhanded way sets people off big time. So continue to ignore that I give Hanyu due respect for what he does exceedingly well and better than anyone, while at the same time I point out what I see as his weaknesses. Of course how I feel doesn't make me right. How you feel doesn't make any of your comments and opinions 'right' either.

I think the figure skating community respects and admires Yuzuru Hanyu for his out-of-this-world skills. However, I've never heard anyone say that Hanyu is the "best skater there ever was..." Of course, you can prove me wrong with a timely, verifiable quote. IMO, Hanyu may be the best quadster ever along with Javi Fernandez in the way their best quads pop so effortlessly and suspend in the air for a split second. And Hanyu's flowy movement qualities are rather appealing to many fans and to his contemporaries. But Hanyu is certainly not the best ever to combine exquisite artistry and performance ability with phenomenal technical skills. And I've never heard anyone say that Hanyu is an exquisite artist on the ice. He's got decent skills in some PCS categories but he's definitely not the best ever. His countryman, Daisuke Takahashi, is a much better performer and interpreter of the music IMHO.

I'm not sure what you are looking at or perceiving if you think that John Curry's skills and his 1976 Olympics performance "has not held up well over the years." I doubt that most of the 'figure skating community' would back you up on that short-sighted view. While I don't live in the past, I respect what history has to teach us. That too many people don't respect history these days is a huge part of the many problems the world faces, and indeed quite a bit of why the sport of figure skating faces so many unresolved problems. A sport that disregards, dismisses, and knows very little about its history is a sport that will always be in flux and in search of itself.

There are certainly some amazing skaters these days who are excelling in spite of the lack of vision and leadership among many of TPTB running the sport. In fact, that particular phenomenon is nothing new, especially not for anyone who is a student of the history of the sport, eh @N_Halifax? It's always the skaters who push the sport forward, not the officials. And now there are (as there has been previously, but now more than ever) some amazing choreographers assisting the skaters. Of course, many of the best choreographers are also former skaters. There's some wonderful coaches today as well, which is also not new, but is perhaps an ever more daunting and challenging role.

 

[SmallFairy]

Gee, thanks, @aftershocks! I'm going to be hearing The Village People in the back of my mind for the rest of the day.

If I've gotta hear them, then at least let me not be alone in this!

Mucho macho quads
I gotta do some macho quads
Mucho macho quads
I gotta do some macho

​

Elvis did the original, right? Now after him there has been several cover versions....

@Karpenko I count on you to make the music video!

 

[aftershocks]

Just like how Johnny Weir and his uberfans kept proclaiming he was the greatest skating artiste ever,

I never heard anyone who admired Johnny's skating declare him to be the "greatest skating artiste ever." That seems to be purely your dismissive view and snarky exaggeration. When Johnny was competing, he was referred to by Dick Button as being "like a gazelle,"* and he was referenced by some fans as being a skater who made figure skating "exciting" to watch. There were just as many criticisms of him too. A shitload by detractors, and quite a number of critiques by adoring fans as well. No one can please all of the people all of the time. It's best to not even try.

I believe Johnny had excellent unbelievable posture, effortless jumps and exquisite rideout on his landings, at his best. He was and still is a very improvisational skater with natural gifts that he could have developed further with better choices and guidance. I don't think he was very driven, fiercely committed or fearless as a competitor. He's said as much himself when he's reflected back on his career. OTOH, he was very inspirational to many of his competitors, not only in the way he skated but also in his efforts to try and be his unfettered self on and off the ice, even if they didn't always agree with some of his witty, off-the-cuff remarks and prima donna behavior. In person, Johnny was always (and I'm sure he still is) fun to be around. He continues to have many friends and admirers in the sport, who have never felt the need to go around blaring about how much they admire him. Somehow the Johnny-haters seem to feel just the opposite.

* I remember Johnny taking exception to being compared to 'animals.' But that was just Johnny's cheeky immediate reaction. He later appreciated the fact that the hard-to-please Dick Button was admiringly complimenting him. Johnny has in looking back even described himself as being "a douche" at his first Olympics. Would that many of us were as unflinchingly self-reflective, eh.