U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[SmallFairy]

Now THIS I agree with in spades.

In fact, I believe this is the most exciting time we have ever had in men's figure skating.

So true! The quad boom the past two seasons have just been insane! Was it a similiar case when triple jump craze exploded for real back in the days? @floskate ?

@aftershocks you make many good points, and I think we mostly agree But it's very hard to compare skating in different eras. Cranston and Curry may have had more time in their programs to do choreo and express themselves, but they still had to do difficult - for their time - jump elements, while lot of their practice time went into practicing figures. The loss of figures have made skating different, and more sloppy, you can't deny that, but we just have to accept it's a different sport these days, and a darn good sport to! I do wish more skaters paid attention the qualities figures could bring to their skating though. Look at Chan, who practiced them even though he didn't have to. I can watch him all day. No figures could lead to less stellar basic, leads to less stellar technique in jumps, f.i. lots of baby girls rotating those triples because they're tiny, but when they grow, everything is gone.

Ok, enough rampling about figures I'm not a baby boomer, I'm a kiddo, I started watching skating in 1992 OG, and have caught up with history via YT. To me, Hanyu is not the greatest artist of all time, but he's a very good one and still growing. He has the subtle passion and drive that I really appreciate. He's not Yagudin, he's not Daisuke, but who is? And there is Uno. Flawed tech aside (truly hope someone cleans that up so his body isn't hampered too much and we get to keep him for many years), wow, is he a dancer, a performer and a master of blades and edges.

 

[SmallFairy]

I'm not sure what you are looking at or perceiving if you think that John Curry's skills and his 1976 Olympics performance "has not held up well over the years."

This!

 

[SmallFairy]

I never manage to stay up for live stream or whatever during US nationals, it's like four o'clock at night or something in my timezone most years, but this season I might have to....

 

[aftershocks]

Cranston and Curry may have had more time in their programs to do choreo and express themselves, but they still had to do difficult - for their time - jump elements, while lot of their practice time went into practicing figures.

Absolutely. I didn't say that what Cranston and Curry had to do in their era was not difficult. I emphasized that similar to today's skaters, Cranston and Curry knew they needed to ace consistency on their jumps, but they also paid a great deal of attention to every aspect of their skating (in a similar way to how Jason Brown pays attention to every detail in the way he moves over the ice). The fact that 1970s and 1980s skaters also had to spend a lot of their time practicing figures is a great point you bring up. I think figures were a bit over-weighted in the scoring until subsequent rules changes (somewhat strangely similar to how quads are over-weighted these days). But figures were very important for the greats in becoming complete skaters. Just ask Janet Lynn.

Yet, oddly enough (as Tom Dickson noted in his famous interview with manleywoman), the sport in those days did not require skaters to effectively utilize in freestyle skating all the blade skills that figures taught. Ironically, in this era in which figures are not widely practiced, the blade skills (rockers, counters) that figures comprise are utilized in a variety of ways via intricate footwork and transitions, etc. Check out Dickson's interview for more details. He expresses it better than I can. http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-36-tom-dickson/

Eh, fairly true about Uno, but he needs to mature and develop more as an artist IMO (along with correcting his flutzes and jumping technique). Smooth, mesmerizing movement quality is not the full measure of an artist. And I've already shared how I feel about Hanyu's level of artistry. There's something there and some flashes of brilliance, but he's not consistent and focused in that aspect of his skating. Even during performances, Hanyu's focus often shifts, likely due to concentrating on his technique and compensating to preserve energy for endurance throughout the program.

Overall, I prefer the skating of Daisuke Takahashi, Takahiko Kozuka, and Tatsuki Machida. For me, these three champions are more complete skaters than Uno and Hanyu, although granted that Uno and Hanyu have spectacular boffo skills and uber rockstar groupie following (and Dai, Kozuka & Machida were not perfect -- altho' I feel they skated with more authenticity and depth). In any case, top skaters in Japan are usually all treated as rockstars.

I agree with you that there are many amazing skaters today who excel despite the odds and the limitations and imperfections of the current rules and scoring system. One of the problems though is too much repetitive predictable moves in skaters programs due to business as usual point-gathering. That's one of the challenges that the best skaters and choreographers seek to surmount. Also, my reflecting on and referencing the past does not mean I don't appreciate there are wonderful skaters and important things happening now. But in terms of overall impact, it's difficult to assess everything effectively that's taking place in the present.

And back to U.S. men ...

 

[floskate]

Well, that's not the first time you're wrong about something and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

You really can't stand it that he's the rock star of skating, can you? And that so many of the figure skating elite consider him the best skater ever?

And speaking of best ever, although Toller Cranston's skating has held up very well over the years, John Curry's skating has not. It's clear the poor guy wanted to be a ballet dancer, not a figure skater. I had fond memories of him too until I actually took the time to watch some of his old skating videos recently. What was ground-breaking in 1976 looks like parody today. I found it very painful to watch his programs.

Stop living in the past. I'm a baby boomer too and lived through those skating years. The kids skating today are every bit as good or better than those of yesteryear.

I love men's skating today and I do agree that they are every bit as good as skaters of yesteryear - in different ways. But John Curry a parody? Painful to watch? If you can't appreciate just how difficult it is to skate with that much control while the body is that stretched and to create such intrinsic and flawless beauty, then your world must be a very grey place.

And while he did want to be a ballet dancer when he was younger and was very honest about that, and while he only wanted to win 'the Olympics thing' - his words not mine - so he could create his own company, skating was John's passion and to suggest otherwise is an insult to the man himself.

So true! The quad boom the past two seasons have just been insane! Was it a similiar case when triple jump craze exploded for real back in the days? @floskate ?

Thanks for asking @SmallFairy! Between 1972 and 1976 there was a definite growth with Terry Kubicka regularly attempting programs with all 5 triples (up to lutz). But the standard was two to three triples; toe, sal, loop. Robin Cousins won the OGM 4 years later with very similar content and while others had harder programs his superiority in overall skating and the tremendous quality in what he did was always rewarded over the likes of Igarashi, Hoffmann, Hamilton et al who were doing triple lutz and/or triple flip.

The boom came in the early 80's. In 1980 Scott Hamilton had one of the most difficult programs out there; a triple lutz and multiple sals and toes. But by 1984 and the advent of Orser & Boitano, his content was dated. Robin Cousins commentating for BBC in 1983 was shocked how many men were doing triple lutz combos' in the short. Then by 1988, if you didn't have a triple axel you were always going to struggle.

That said it certainly didn't happen as quickly as the quad boom of the last two seasons. But with the IJS system, you gotta take the risk if someone else is out there landing the stuff.

 

[aftershocks]

So true! The quad boom the past two seasons have just been insane!

Hmmm re quad craze making things exciting. Those jumps are split second and not always visible to the naked eye in real time. What I find exciting is the depth of talent; budding rivalries; choreographic brilliance; great technique combined with weaving a story through fully committing to the music and the choreo; and the way athletes have to pay more attention to fitness, nutrition, and state-of-the-art training regimens on and off the ice. The only thing that makes quads exciting for me is if they can be done in a consistent fashion cleanly with no or few mistakes, and with better than average attention to artistry and telling a story through feeling the music. Otherwise, it's more like a jumping contest. Of course, it would be fun watching Hanyu's and Javi's spectacular split second suspended quads all day, if they could land them all day consistently. Landing them consistently with remarkable bravura aesthetics and expressiveness to the music is way more thrilling and satisfying. Javi 2016 Worlds; Hanyu 2017 Worlds and 2015 NHK & GPF. Machida on numerable occasions. Denis Ten 2013 Worlds and a few other performances including his comeback in fp at Sochi Olympics. Patrick Chan 2011 Worlds, among other performances. Dai Takahashi 2012 Worlds, among other performances.

What Nathan accomplished toward the end of last season was exciting because it was revolutionary, record-breaking, unexpected, and it ratcheted up the ante for everyone. I had become tired of watching attempted two and three quad programs with mistakes that garnered huge TES and PCS. The jump to five quads in a fp with a clean performance was rather sudden and mind-blowing. It certainly challenged Hanyu, and he responded in fine fashion at 2017 Worlds.

Also, the purpose of my earlier post was not to compare skaters from different eras. I mentioned John Curry simply to point out how in that era there was more time available to explore balancing artistry with athleticism in a very satisfying way. There are different levels to this discussion and different ways of approaching and perceiving, so it's an interesting conversation. I feel John Curry's performance is more memorable and complete technically and artistically for any era, but I was not strictly comparing him one-on-one vs Hanyu. I was referencing the fact that some fans mentioned Curry's performance in his era, in relation to what Hanyu accomplished at NHK in 2015, and I critiqued that viewpoint in terms of artistry, but not in terms of athleticism.

And back to U.S. men?

 

[olympic]

I love men's skating today and I do agree that they are every bit as good as skaters of yesteryear - in different ways. But John Curry a parody? Painful to watch? If you can't appreciate just how difficult it is to skate with that much control while the body is that stretched and to create such intrinsic and flawless beauty, then your world must be a very grey place.

And while he did want to be a ballet dancer when he was younger and was very honest about that, and while he only wanted to win 'the Olympics thing' - his words not mine - so he could create his own company, skating was John's passion and to suggest otherwise is an insult to the man himself.



Thanks for asking @SmallFairy! Between 1972 and 1976 there was a definite growth with Terry Kubicka regularly attempting programs with all 5 triples (up to lutz). But the standard was two to three triples; toe, sal, loop. Robin Cousins won the OGM 4 years later with very similar content and while others had harder programs his superiority in overall skating and the tremendous quality in what he did was always rewarded over the likes of Igarashi, Hoffmann, Hamilton et al who were doing triple lutz and/or triple flip.

The boom came in the early 80's. In 1980 Scott Hamilton had one of the most difficult programs out there; a triple lutz and multiple sals and toes. But by 1984 and the advent of Orser & Boitano, his content was dated. Robin Cousins commentating for BBC in 1983 was shocked how many men were doing triple lutz combos' in the short. Then by 1988, if you didn't have a triple axel you were always going to struggle.

That said it certainly didn't happen as quickly as the quad boom of the last two seasons. But with the IJS system, you gotta take the risk if someone else is out there landing the stuff.

I remember in the era between Calgary and Albertville the 3A-3T for men was becoming a standard money move. The quad began showing its face in the 80s, too: Fadeyev, Sabovcik, Boitano made attempts in the 85-88 timeframe, then Browning landed a quad at 88 Worlds, but it wasn't really a standard for men. I think Stojko was considered the quadster even before Albertville, whenever he started to attempt them

 

[Sylvia]

U.S. Men's JGP assignments so far:

Brisbane, Australia:
Alex KRASNOZHON (J1)
Eric SJOBERG (J4)

Salzburg, Austria:
Camden PULKINEN (J2)
Ryan DUNK (J3) - his JGP & Team USA debut

Listed subs for 1st 2 JGPs:
Andrew TORGASHEV
Tomoki HIWATASHI
Maxim NAUMOV (N1)
Joseph KANG (N2)
Kendrick WESTON

ETA: Dunk, Naumov, Kang & Weston are all entered in the junior men's international event in Philadelphia this week; Torgashev, Krasnozhon and Pulkinen are entered in the senior international (debut for latter two).

 

[aftershocks]

I think it's pretty meaningless to debate whether X is more artistic than Y . . . especially since we're probably all using different definitions/criteria for what constitutes artistry.

Yep meaningless to 'debate,' particularly across different eras. It's often fascinating to share varying opinions that spark interesting conversations though (aside from the clueless snarking of course). IMO, I personally am not 'debating' on the issue of artistry, but more-so stating my opinions and making distinctions as well as correcting others misinterpretations of my comments.

Figure skating is so entertaining and fascinating that I actually think that a real 'debate' is in order by actual experts (coaches, skaters from all generations, figure skating historians such as Benjamin T. Wright, knowledgeable fans, former judges & officials) on what their view of artistry is in the sport, and how they feel the sport has evolved and is evolving.

 

[gkelly]

Figure skating is so entertaining and fascinating that I actually think that a real 'debate' is in order by actual experts (coaches, skaters from all generations, figure skating historians such as Benjamin T. Wright, knowledgeable fans, former judges & officials) on what their view of artistry is in the sport, and how they feel the sport has evolved and is evolving.

Well, as an intellectual exercise if nothing else, shall we start a conversation on the subject among knowledgeable fans in the Trashcan? I'm sure we've had the discussion before, but not recently enough to be able to find it by searching.

 

[aftershocks]

I was looking again at Ross Miner's new programs at Glacier Falls. I'm impressed by both, and I hope he has a wonderful and rewarding season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XqDOlcUUwM sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isdk4AQVwPs fp

It seems to me that Ross is coming more and more into his own as a skater. There needs to be another avenue for skaters like Ross who have so much more to give, aside from coaching and maybe a few show opportunities after retirement from eligible skating. I love to watch Ross skate.

If I had independent wealth and money to spread around, I'd love to invest it in ventures to help grow the sport beyond the eligible ranks.

 

[VGThuy]

Nathan Chen playing what could be his SP on piano:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXT_nohg4Hf/

 

[Interludes]

I think that just about confirms it now.

 

[aftershocks]

Nathan Chen playing what could be his SP on piano:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXT_nohg4Hf/

Ah, kid has got skills and then some! Who say he ain't 'artistic.' Nathan #Slaythem

 

[misskarne]

Golden Skate has a Max interview up. Hard to hear (sounds like they had a tech problem) but lots of good stuff in it, including not one, but two hidden factors into what went wrong last season and an insight into how he doesn't intend to be left behind again.

And I'm not 100% sure because it was in one of the difficult-to-hear passages, but I think he mentions trying to add a third type of quad in...and it's not the loop.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think he was talking about the quad lutz.

 

[misskarne]

I think he was talking about the quad lutz.

That's what I thought he said, but I wasn't 100% sure and wanted someone else's ears to verify. That should be good, he should suit a quad Lutz, his triple is a thing of beauty and it's always big.

 

[misskarne]

Double post sorry

I'm guessing the planned layouts look something like this:

SP - 4S-3T, 4T, 3A

FS - 4S-3T, 4T-2T, 4S, 4T, 3A, 3Lz-1Lo-3S, 3Lo, 3F/2A

OR

4Lz, 4S-3T, 4T-2T, 4S, 4T, 3A-1Lo-3S, 3Lz, 3Lo

 

[aftershocks]

What a shame about the audio problems. I am straining to hear Max and follow the gist of the conversation. I suppose there's no way for the audio to be fixed?

 

[misskarne]

What a shame about the audio problems. I am straining to hear Max and follow the gist of the conversation. I suppose there's no way for the audio to be fixed?

To me it sounds like they already did some fixing. You can hear the difference between Max's voice and Ted's voice.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Oh wow, if it was worse than that previously. I'm glad they at least attempted to repair as much as they could. It is possible to make out the gist of what is being said, if not specifics in some spots. Max has a delightful personality.

 

[Karpenko]

@Karpenko I count on you to make the music video!

Keep counting dear. it'll never happen under my watch. But if anyone else wants to remind the world of how amazing quads are, this that yadda yadda whoopdeedoo quads yay! then feel free.

Nathan Chen is really cool. didn't know he played piano, this guy is just full of nice surprises.

Re: Max interview - These unbelievably stressful audio issues with the Golden Skate interviews (that I have no control over) will never be an issue again in the future. Preventive measures are being taken.

 

[Karpenko]

That's what I thought he said, but I wasn't 100% sure and wanted someone else's ears to verify. That should be good, he should suit a quad Lutz, his triple is a thing of beauty and it's always big.

Yeah he's practicing quad lutz. I'm pretty sure he said that he started practicing it after (being inspired) seeing Nathan land his on one of the first attempts. Then he goes on to remind us that quads aren't easy and that Nathan makes them look easy!

Max really is an awesome person and I like him a lot. All of them are really, whoever ends up getting sent to the Olys this year will be an amazing person (on top of athlete). You really can't go wrong on that front

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm guessing the planned layouts look something like this:



OR

4Lz, 4S-3T, 4T-2T, 4S, 4T, 3A-1Lo-3S, 3Lz, 3Lo

or
4Lz, 4S-3T, 4T-2T, 4S, 3A, 3A-1Lo-3S, 3Lz, 3Lo

as that would be four quads as he said and might be a bit safer. He has a great 3A after-all.

 

[Sylvia]

Program music news passed along to me from the Philadelphia (Aston, PA) rink where the senior international men practiced earlier: Max Aaron ran through his short program to Les Miz (Bring Him Home/One Day More) and the jumps he reportedly landed were 1T (planned 4T combo), 4S & 3A.

 

[misskarne]

Max and Bring Him Home. Damn, I'll need the tissues for every comp he does this year. No way I'll get through that without crying.

Other reports from Philly include that Max landed several 4T-3Ts in practice (presumably outside his program).

 

[jlai]

I wish he stuck to his last season's new short. Oh well

 

[misskarne]

^I'll miss the Matador SP very much too (especially the costume) but I guess this might always have been his plan for the Olympic season.

 

[aftershocks]

I recall first seeing Katherine Hill's name associated with the choreography of this Jordan Moeller short program in 2014-15 ...
Sarah Brannen, in the second of her "Creating the program" IN articles on Vincent Zhou's FS, referred to Hill as a "movement specialist" who is working with Zhou alongside Drew Meekins in Colorado Springs.

Here's an Instagram clip of Katherine Hill grooving/ improvising ...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BV96w5fFE5B/

 

[personwhoishere]

Program music news passed along to me from the Philadelphia (Aston, PA) rink where the senior international men practiced earlier: Max Aaron ran through his short program to Les Miz (Bring Him Home/One Day More) and the jumps he reportedly landed were 1T (planned 4T combo), 4S & 3A.

I'm intrigued. I love Les Mis, and One Day More is such an emotionally impactful song. I hope he brings the intensity! I know he has it in him