U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, exactly. The FS music is all one tempo (slow) and totally forgettable, and he might as well just skate exactly last year's choreography to that music. I'd like to see him skate to some classical piece with some tension or excitement to it, or that sounds celebratory or triumphant. I remember once Scott Hamilton was complimenting some skater's music choice as "Olympic-sounding" and "big", and this isn't it.

I am not worried about the jump content at this competition. Jason usually takes it easy on the jumps in his early-season competitions and does a lot of intentional doubles. He needs to plan to peak later in this season this year and he's getting a later start to compensate.

A Jason Brown program performed the way he usually does is never boring or totally forgettable. It could be a cat having a litter of kittens for his music and it would be beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous, unlike any litter of kittens on the ice to come beforehand.

Jason doesn't need to change up his style to be BY FAR the best skater the U.S. has to offer artistically. That goes for our ice dance program as well IMO. He's the best artist from the USA in figure skating.

He needs the jumps, that's all Jason Brown needs. If you end up finding him forgettable when he performs up to his usual standard, then you really need to pull yourself together. :lynch:

Like how I'm pulling myself together, because I am ready to pounce at the drop of a hat. :slinkaway
 
Last edited:
That was great! I'm more and more growing into a Nathan über, he's so fun, and I'm more and more :wall: over his FS from last year. Can't take more of that. (His SP was :respec: though). I need kick-ass programs from him this year, he's THAT GOOD!

Uh huh, but do you want Nathan to pull back on his mucho macho multiple quads in the fp? Hard choices have to be made these days in the men's discipline, for anyone looking to beat the competition and land atop the podium. There is not enough energy, time and mental focus available for any skater these days to accomplish what John Curry did technically and artistically at the 1976 Olympics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

Curry had much more time and freedom to do all the state-of-the-art technical feats of the era, but also to uniquely focus on elevating the sport artistically and performance-wise. Curry's performance, IMHO, is much more memorable and significant as a contribution to pushing the sport/art further than is Hanyu's best recent performances. I think Hanyu's best performances are more personal achievements in terms of his not falling or making major mistakes with crammed-in tech content and a fairly well realized artistic concept. Both Hanyu and Javi have contributed mainly in the 'beauty and effortless' of their quads, when they are at their best. Their attempts to improve artistically have not been groundbreaking.

Meanwhile, Jin Boyang will go down in the record books as the first man to successfully land quad-lutz/triples, but with skating and presentation skills that still needed a lot of work. Jin has done work to improve, but he's still far behind in having a distinctive feel for the music or any unique expressive, interpretive skills, although Jin does display an appealing personality. Nathan is still writing his story, but he's already made extraordinary history in landing 5 quads cleanly in a bare bones of a free program but with great technique, budding & capable artistic sensibilities, and a definite feel for the music. As well as 7 quads total over two programs in two back-to-back events. What Nathan accomplished last season changed things in ways we can not decipher because it's still in the process of happening.

A lot of people feel that Hanyu did come close to achieving something similar to Curry a couple of times when he broke through to land all his jumps cleanly and complete a relatively artistically satisfying program two seasons ago. Here's the recording-breaking NHK 2015 performance by Hanyu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j07i-cqZgg
Hanyu was unable to sustain that form and consistency over more than a couple of events though. And at that point, Hanyu was performing 2 quads in the first half of his free program (maybe he was building up to attempt 3 back then). It was an extraordinarily well-paced program and an amazing feat of athleticism mostly.

I love the music and artistic concept, and Hanyu has great flow, quickness and effortlessness on his jumping passes. However, he is really not the best at interpreting, feeling and expressing the music. His flow and athleticism seem to make up for his weaknesses which include lack of full attention to detail, lack of meaningful artistic depth and failure to utilize much stretch. I also do not feel much of a personality from Hanyu. He does not display great expressive range, nor does he exhibit any intensity of full body awareness (such as graceful tension, expansion and variety in his movement qualities). IOW, Hanyu is not a masterful artist, but he receives PCS scores out the wazoo which anoint him as being such. For me, Hanyu is mesmerizing mainly in his athleticism, and in possessing a frame that allows him to rotate with amazing speed and remarkable suspension and precision when he's in-the-zone. Obviously, there is an over-focus on rewarding rotational talent these days in both men's and ladies disciplines.

Of course, I am only speaking for myself. I know that others see what Hanyu does differently. He just has a loosey-goosey quality on the ice that is not appealing to me, despite the fact I was attracted to him when he first came on the scene. I haven't seen significant growth from Hanyu artistically as he has matured. He has also lacked consistency and endurance at times, though he's worked hard at improving in those areas. And he has always been amazing in his fight, determination, and love for the sport. He is an exemplary person and athlete. There was no one better in the fp at 2017 Worlds. He wanted his title back. Still, his scores should better reflect where he has things to work on.
 
Last edited:
9 U.S. are men entered in next week's Philadelphia senior international competition:
Vincent Zhou
Max Aaron (season debut)
Tim Dolensky
Alexander Johnson
Sean Rabbitt
Jordan Moeller
Andrew Torgashev (season debut)
Alex Krasnozhon (scheduled for JGP #1 in Australia)
Camden Pulkinen
(The latter 3 are returning to the JGP, AFAIK.)

In addition, 4 senior men from Nationals -- Emmanuel Savary, Scott Dyer, Oleksiy Melnyk and Daniel Kulenkamp -- are scheduled to be in the separate club competition event.

ETA that 4 U.S. men are entered in the Philly junior international event: Ryan Dunk (J3 at Nationals), Kendrick Weston (WD from junior at Nationals), Maxim Naumov (N1) and Joseph Kang (N2).
 
Last edited:
A Jason Brown program performed the way he usually does is never boring or totally forgettable. It could be a cat having a litter of kittens for his music and it would be beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous, unlike any litter of kittens on the ice to come beforehand.

Yeah, yeah. Just like how Johnny Weir and his uberfans kept proclaiming he was the greatest skating artiste ever, while it seemed like the greater the artiste he became, the worse the programs he came up with were in terms of structure and choreography.
:rolleyes:

I really like Jason's skating and I'm wondering if it's Rohene who has the Big Head Syndrome here to have come up with a couple clunkers being passed off as Great Art. :wall: Maybe we'll be lucky and the USFSA will tell them to try again on the programs after Champs Camp.
 
Just because you think they aren't any good doesn't mean it's true, does it? :lol: I guess we will see what the entire world thinks eventually, but carry on. I'd be more worried about the jumps than his programs.

Johnny Weir (the great) wasn't as great of an artist as Jason, let's get real here. Love him, but not in my opinion.
 
Yeah, yeah. Just like how Johnny Weir and his uberfans kept proclaiming he was the greatest skating artiste ever, while it seemed like the greater the artiste he became, the worse the programs he came up with were in terms of structure and choreography.
:rolleyes:

Oh please. It is insulting to Jason to even mention Weir's name in the same sentence. Quite apart from Jason being a far superior skater, Jason is also not a petty asshole who faked injury and illness as a form of temper tantrum.

I really like Jason's skating and I'm wondering if it's Rohene who has the Big Head Syndrome here to have come up with a couple clunkers being passed off as Great Art.

I actually wonder if some of the more dubious choreo in the SP is actually a result of Rohene not wanting Jason to do a Hamilton program. (Jason even admitted Kori and Rohene didn't want it for him.) Still think he should have done Wait for It...
 
Is Jason a superior skater? I dunno. Weir was known for not maxing out on cop and no transitions, but I remember people complimented him for his technique.

They are from different era, so unless they skate side by side, it is so hard to say who has better skating skills.
 
I'm willing to bet that Johnny himself would admit that Jason is more artistic than he was during his time, and on air. That's also not an insult to Johnny by any means. Johnny loves Jason Brown, he's also smart and has a sense of humor about himself. That's what makes Johnny so cool.

I don't understand how Jason can pull off so many styles and connect with so many crowds around the world, and it's choreographed artistry. I don't even know how to approach this argument, but to each their own.
 
Max is a wonderful person, and people should be nice. Be mean to Katherine Hill if you don't like what he's serving, he's trying his hardest and would say something like "didn't your momma teach you right?" or something cute.

I swear if this all comes down to Jason and Max, I'm going to be far far away from here. :shuffle: I'll just have to shut my mouth because my choice is clear :saint:
 
I swear if this all comes down to Jason and Max, I'm going to be far far away from here. :shuffle: I'll just have to shut my mouth because my choice is clear :saint:

It would break my heart. But Jason has already been to an Olympics. And he's younger than Max.
 
This is all true. It would still be a devastating blow, but we'd definitely see Jason all the way until 2022. I'm also really pulling for Adam. This year will end with bitter devastation no matter what.
 
I don't believe we should assume that we will see anyone "until 2022".
With the increasing technical "requirements" to achieve the elite level; most skaters will likely have only one chance to make the Olympic team, IMO.


I feel like, in many ways, the trend these days is toward longer eligible careers for skaters, not shorter careers.

But, even if careers are generally longer, it still doesn't mean that skaters will necessarily make more than one, or even one, Olympic team. Because, in the big countries, the level of competition and number of high-level competitors seems to be, in some cases if not all, increasing.

Also, with ever-more-difficult technical requirements, injuries--already common--will likely become more so. And that will also limit many skaters' chances of making multiple Olympic teams.
 
Uh huh, but do you want Nathan to pull back on his mucho macho multiple quads in the fp? Hard choices have to be made these days in the men's discipline, for anyone looking to beat the competition and land atop the podium. There is not enough energy, time and mental focus available for any skater these days to accomplish what John Curry did technically and artistically at the 1976 Olympics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc

(...)

I never said I want Nathan to pull back on his macho mucho quads;) I was talking about the program itself. I want him to keep doing all his quads, and as he gets more experience, more training, he will be able to incorporate them more smoothly into the programs, not like last year where I felt he was skating back and forth. But I understand, he is young, and it was his first senior season. Of course, being on the top is demanding these days, 4 or 5 quads and stellar choreo. Hanyu proves it's possible, his quads are just blending in, but not everyone can be Hanyu, he's something else.

I'm not comparing Nathan to Hanyu. Nor to John Curry, or Toller Cranston or Daisuke or any other of the totally artistic, effortless dancers that are my favorite skaters. I don't want Nathan to be like any of them, I want him to find himself on the ice, which he is doing already, and will more and more. He's got the personality, he's got the dance skills, he's got the technique, he's got the charm. If he stays injury free he's got the potential to be a great force in years to come, and I sense he can come up with programs I want to watch over and over. With the tech to max.
 
A Jason Brown program performed the way he usually does is never boring or totally forgettable. It could be a cat having a litter of kittens for his music and it would be beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous, unlike any litter of kittens on the ice to come beforehand.

Jason doesn't need to change up his style to be BY FAR the best skater the U.S. has to offer artistically. That goes for our ice dance program as well IMO. He's the best artist from the USA in figure skating.

He needs the jumps, that's all Jason Brown needs. If you end up finding him forgettable when he performs up to his usual standard, then you really need to pull yourself together. :lynch:

Like how I'm pulling myself together, because I am ready to pounce at the drop of a hat. :slinkaway

I think Jason's music his generic. Jason is not. I never claimed him to be boring or forgettable. He's so much the opposite of that as possible, that's why I wanted him to push himself, do something different, because he's one of the few who really could pull it off. He doesn't need to change his style to do so. I feel his style is very versatile, he could choose lots of different music and do interesting, new moves, and still be Jason, there will never be any doubt. It's only July (for a few more hours). Maybe he will edge the program more before the real stuff kicks off.
 
Max is a wonderful person, and people should be nice. Be mean to Katherine Hill if you don't like what he's serving, he's trying his hardest and would say something like "didn't your momma teach you right?" or something cute.

I swear if this all comes down to Jason and Max, I'm going to be far far away from here. :shuffle: I'll just have to shut my mouth because my choice is clear :saint:

So many duels everywhere, US men, US ladies, Russian nationals, pairs field....those OG are gonna be so darn interesting, I'm so excited already, can't wait!!!

I have always loved Adam! He's been my man. And then I have grown so found of so many more of the guys....Max, Jason, Nathan.... No matter what I will be devastated...:wuzrobbed
 
I think Brown has choreographed artistry in his programs, that is not the same as having true artistry. E.g. his freeskate consists of series of beautiful looking poises, one after another..., but that is not musical interpretation either. And his skating looks real slow!

Choreographed? How about operatic? - in a good way. He is a master of the grand gesture. He is always building a story - sometimes just an emotional one - and leading the audience to the conclusion. He projects to the last row. It's a trait most skaters would die for.
 
Well, if this is dull and derivative and choreographed, count me in with the majority: I'm impressed.:cool:

Another fancam of Jason's LP with a closer perspective

(And like Karpenko, I'm confused about "choreographed". Unless you're Christopher Bowman making it up as he goes along at 1990 Worlds, isn't all artistry is "choreographed"? Is it that he didn't do his own choreo? That he doesn't communicate his own feelings? I am *way* more impressed by someone like Jason, who IMHO communicates other's work and feelings with style and passion and feeling, than someone skating to their own life story. Heck, I can skate my own life story.... But that's just me:D)

ETA: OK, so I used "feeling" a lot, just how I was feeling....:lol:
 
Last edited:
I remember the whole "Jason is not an artist but just a dancer" thing back in the 2014-2015 season when people were all about Joshua Farris. I remember those two skaters were being compared and contrasted with some saying Josh was more of a "real" artist, while most Jason fans I remember argued both were artists and were just artists in different ways.
 
To be honest, when I hear someone criticizing a performer for being a "choreographed" artist, it tells me immediately that the person has no clue what the creative process entails - what happens after you receive the music or words or steps you will interpret, and even what changes you may suggest to the conductor or director or choreographer. And simply because you dislike or miss or don't understand the result - someone's interpretation of a part or role- doesn't mean it's nonexistent, any more than your dislike for a piece of music means it is, in fact, bad music.
 
I never said I want Nathan to pull back on his macho mucho quads;) I was talking about the program itself. I want him to keep doing all his quads, and as he gets more experience, more training, he will be able to incorporate them more smoothly into the programs, not like last year where I felt he was skating back and forth. But I understand, he is young, and it was his first senior season. Of course, being on the top is demanding these days, 4 or 5 quads and stellar choreo. Hanyu proves it's possible, his quads are just blending in, but not everyone can be Hanyu, he's something else.

I'm not comparing Nathan to Hanyu. Nor to John Curry, or Toller Cranston or Daisuke or any other of the totally artistic, effortless dancers that are my favorite skaters. I don't want Nathan to be like any of them, I want him to find himself on the ice, which he is doing already, and will more and more. He's got the personality, he's got the dance skills, he's got the technique, he's got the charm. If he stays injury free he's got the potential to be a great force in years to come, and I sense he can come up with programs I want to watch over and over. With the tech to max.

Oh, of course not @SmallFairy. I was just rambling on about the other skaters. Plus, I was only asking you in a way rhetorically about Nathan and quads, not in a challenging or disagreeing way. I do agree with you but I was just trying to point out that the dilemma at this point in time and under the present circumstances is that quads are king, and so much is being expected and asked of the men with these tech-heavy programs that artistry tends to take a backseat. The sport is doing nothing about making any effort to develop a balance. As we all know, PCS scores are largely manipulated, so it's fairly much a crap game heavily influenced by politics, and one's proven rep for landing multiple quads with consistency. The guys are not really encouraged to work hard on their artistic side for further evolution of that aspect of the sport.

That's not to say that Toller and Curry were ever encouraged either in terms of artistry. They also knew they had to be consistent technically first and then explore their love for expressing themselves on the ice in uniquely different ways from what had been expected of men up to that time. Toller in particular was given a very hard time for his edgy, avant-garde take on skating. The unique spins Toller invented are so commonplace these days. Fortunately for Toller and Curry, they had enough time and energy to pay more attention in a personal stylistic way to expressing their rare artistry. So all I was pointing out is that Nathan and other guys more-so have to choose to focus mainly on perfecting quads and skating cleanly. Whatever little bit of energy they have left to finetune presentation skills is considered enough, according to how ISU judges have been applying IJS/COP.

As far as Hanyu being that special artistically, I do not think that's the case. And that's what I was also expressing, not that you initially mentioned Hanyu.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information