Allisanna
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That is my dream team also. I love Jason, but I'd like to see someone new get the chance to skate on Olympic ice.
U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news
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jamesy
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But, but "body of work"
Bellanca
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Exactly! This post is GOLD!But, but "body of work"
personwhoishere
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How often does "what should be" and "what is" coincide in figure skating? I already stated the only scenario I see Nathan not making the team, and I stand by that.
Also, I know your default mode is to defend Max, but I don't see anyone here "throwing him on the trash heap"? I certainly didn't. I've always been a fan of his and have only been frustrated that he seems to continually have programs that don't appear to suit him. His short from nationals seemed like the right direction for him though, and I hope he is able to skate well next season and be rewarded accordingly. There are a handful of men who could take those spots and he's absolutely one of them.
It's a nice thought (for me, anyway) but don't you think it's a bit early to say? On the one hand, he showed again that he's a super strong competitor, his scores and PCS without a quad are fantastic (273+ is a new PB), and he got Nats level / Hanyu level GOE here (+10 SP and +16 FS). (That FS GOE might be a bit inflated compared to Worlds, but not that much - at Worlds, even with the fall / < on the quad, he got +10)
On the other hand, he still hasn't landed a quad yet. There must have been a good reason why he didn't attempt it here, but until he does, he is unlikely to medal at a championship event. And of course, it depends on how he does next season.
Next season is going to be an interesting one for the U.S. men. While we all might want to think no one is a lock, or ice is slippery, etc., I think it's more than safe to say that unless Nathan bombs at every single competition next season, he is on the team. And not for nothing, he should be. He's one of the most talented U.S. men ever, and the most promising U.S. man in decades.
The second and third spots is where things get very tricky. In theory, Jason, Adam, Vincent, Josh, Max and Grant all have about an equal chance based on previous results and skills. Sure there are some others that could sneak in with two great programs at Nationals, but no one other than the previous mentioned have the international experience/skills/potential to really put their name in the conversation, in my opinion.
Yes, Jason has had a very solid season considering the injury. But I also think, looking critically, at his current skill set, and potential, I don't know how much more he can achieve or improve. His skating is phenomenal, there is no question, but the quad isn't there. And if it does ever get there, it will likely still just be one quad. I just don't know how much more he can improve over another Olympic cycle, and from what I understand, USFS is feeling the same.
Fingers crossed that Adam's recovery continues to go well, and he comes back strong next season with one or two quads. Vincent also has tons of potential and I think if he has a strong season, he's very much in contention for a spot. Lastly, I think Josh is the real wild card. He's quads look fabulous in the videos we've seen on Instagram, of course, lets see how they look in competition. But if he is able to have a solid season, putting out quads, with his incredible skating skills and components, I think he has a good a chance to make the team as any of the others.
The second and third spots is where things get very tricky. In theory, Jason, Adam, Vincent, Josh, Max and Grant all have about an equal chance based on previous results and skills. Sure there are some others that could sneak in with two great programs at Nationals, but no one other than the previous mentioned have the international experience/skills/potential to really put their name in the conversation, in my opinion.
Yes, Jason has had a very solid season considering the injury. But I also think, looking critically, at his current skill set, and potential, I don't know how much more he can achieve or improve. His skating is phenomenal, there is no question, but the quad isn't there. And if it does ever get there, it will likely still just be one quad. I just don't know how much more he can improve over another Olympic cycle, and from what I understand, USFS is feeling the same.
Fingers crossed that Adam's recovery continues to go well, and he comes back strong next season with one or two quads. Vincent also has tons of potential and I think if he has a strong season, he's very much in contention for a spot. Lastly, I think Josh is the real wild card. He's quads look fabulous in the videos we've seen on Instagram, of course, lets see how they look in competition. But if he is able to have a solid season, putting out quads, with his incredible skating skills and components, I think he has a good a chance to make the team as any of the others.
toddlj
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Crunching the numbers from WTT, Nathan and Jason would have done quite well if the scores were added like a normal comp. Neither were perfect, to be sure, but both should be proud.
-----------SP------LP-------- Total
Uno--- 103.53-- 198.49-- 302.02
Chen--- 99.28-- 185.24-- 284.52
Hanyu-- 83.51-- 200.49-- 284.00
Kolyada-95.37-- 184.04-- 279.41
Chan--- 85.73-- 190.74-- 276.47
Brown-- 94.32-- 179.35-- 273.67
Jin------ 97.98-- 174.63-- 272.61
-----------SP------LP-------- Total
Uno--- 103.53-- 198.49-- 302.02
Chen--- 99.28-- 185.24-- 284.52
Hanyu-- 83.51-- 200.49-- 284.00
Kolyada-95.37-- 184.04-- 279.41
Chan--- 85.73-- 190.74-- 276.47
Brown-- 94.32-- 179.35-- 273.67
Jin------ 97.98-- 174.63-- 272.61
Bellanca
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The biggest concern I have for Nathan, and frankly, for all the guys -- getting and staying healthy, injury free. Ugh, that is always a stomach full of butterflies. Makes me nervous to think about it, especially after this season.
olympic
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If I had to place a bet on any of the men training smart, it would be on Nathan. From what I understand, he purposely dialed back a bit at WTT to be mindful of his ankles from the boot issue at Worlds
Their scores next season will be the key to get on the Olympic team. Other factors may also affect the selection.
Nathan: should set and do his hardest layout (7 quad long) from start to end next season, not changeing it every competition.
Jason: should keep quadless to ensure consistent 280 to fend off other quadsters who may show inconsistency.
Adam: he's got 4Lz at practices before nationals last year. He has said to work on putting 4T and 4F in. He may need 1-2 consistent quads to beat Jason.
Vincent: he already has 3-4 consistent quads. If he delivers at senior events next season, he is likely on as he has Justin's political backing/promise.
Nathan: should set and do his hardest layout (7 quad long) from start to end next season, not changeing it every competition.
Jason: should keep quadless to ensure consistent 280 to fend off other quadsters who may show inconsistency.
Adam: he's got 4Lz at practices before nationals last year. He has said to work on putting 4T and 4F in. He may need 1-2 consistent quads to beat Jason.
Vincent: he already has 3-4 consistent quads. If he delivers at senior events next season, he is likely on as he has Justin's political backing/promise.
Bellanca
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IMO, Vincent is the sleeper in this field and has an enormous opportunity to shake things up next season, absolutely. I wouldn’t overlook or count him out for one second.
StitchMonkey
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Actually his coach has already said they are choreographing his short with two quads as the plan... so there is really no reason to think that. Also Kori has recently said she likes his 4S better than his 4T... and Jason has also said he wants to start working on the 4F as well. So I don't think there is any reason to think it would only be one.
His Frank 3A boot camp seemed to really work last year, so with a little luck he can do a 4T boot camp this summer.
Sylvia
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For those interested, Kori Ade touched on this in episode 28 of the "Ice Talk" podcast (after the 51-minute mark).
ETA scores & videos from World Team Trophy:
SP:
2 Nathan CHEN USA 99.28 57.17 42.11 8.46 8.21 8.61 8.29 8.54 0.00 #5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0pqXyPFEEQ
5 Jason BROWN USA 94.32 48.43 45.89 8.96 9.04 9.32 9.18 9.39 0.00 #9 *new ISU PB* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-R0sxPBKxk
FS:
4 Nathan CHEN USA 185.24 101.88 83.36 8.50 8.07 8.50 8.29 8.32 0.00 #11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-lkPwgl6w4
6 Jason BROWN USA 179.35 87.27 92.08 9.07 9.04 9.11 9.32 9.50 0.00 #8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6MTaSaoYJk
273.67 would be/is an ISU personal best total score for Brown.
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Kind of funny that you're ready to write Jason off as unable to improve much more technically, while giving everyone else you mention the benefit of the doubt.
Not so funny is your sourceless, unsubstantiated, statement that USFS doesn't think he can improve much, either.
It's pretty clear from your post that you prefer others to Jason, which is fine, but IMO spreading rumors like that really isn't okay, and could even be seen as malicious.
olympic
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Interesting assessment
I agree that Nathan should really decide on a jump layout at the commencement of next season and stick to it. That would probably save him some time and energy, and lessen any risk of injury. I don't think it would be beneficial in the long run for him to throw out quads, regardless of how great his technique is. I would like to see 6 quads if possible, repeating the 4Z and 4F but avoiding the 4L: Too much stress on the hip.
Jason can score 270s w/o a quad but health permitting, I'd like to see him try again for the 4T.
Adam is in the same boat as Jason: He's got the whole package except for quads, yet he is in the twilight of his career. He would do well to land the 4T and maybe the 4S. The 4Z is a non-starter though.
Very intrigued by Josh's return and if his return practices are any indication, he could out-tech Jason or Adam w/ the 4T and 4S, and at least keep up w/ them in the PCS department. I hope to see him in some early comps because I think they would serve him well. Maybe he could snag the SA spot based on a good Summer / early Fall.
Vincent can do 3 types of quads and repeat the 4S. I think his PCS needs the most work of the top men, and his 4Z for me is more reminiscent of Boyang Jin than Nathan. Maybe because he is taller than Nathan?
I am impressed w/ Grant scrapping to remain relevant and love the fact that he goes for 2 4T come rain or shine. Nice style.
Ross also has mad SS but he needs higher tech content. Securing the 4S first would greatly benefit him.
And Max. He needs to get his groove back. Nathan and Vincent have encroached on his role as the 'jumper' and the other guys beat him on PCS. Jason beats him significantly without a quad. He needs to muster everything he has technically and find the right vehicles to say 'I matter!'
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Firedancer
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I would like to see Nathan stick to 5-6 quads, repeating 4Z & 4F and allowing him to do just one 3A. And obviously I would like to see him spend more time in Canton this summer working on his PCS. Continued work with Marina and a better free skate could make big difference. I cannot say enough how much I love his ability to compete and determination to fight for everything all the way to the end of both programs. I wish many other skaters had this.
In reality, I think if Vincent has a good Grand Prix & nationals he will make the Olympic team as he is currently the only other US man with 3 different quads.
I love Jason's programs this year and I am sad to see them both go. I think he made a strong statement for himself with four beautiful programs between Worlds & WTT but I don't think any decisions have been made yet. His 3As have been looking much improved. Hopefully Frank can work with him on his quads and he can get at least one (preferably 2) consistent. But the last two years before Jason made it to nationals he was injured. So I am a little concerned about his health for next year.
I am thrilled Adam is keeping his beautiful bird FS. Hopefully after SOI he will be able to pick up his training as planned with no set backs.
Josh could end up anywhere. I am hoping he is skating well and we will be seeing him in some summer competitions, maybe even leading to the SA spot.
In reality, I think if Vincent has a good Grand Prix & nationals he will make the Olympic team as he is currently the only other US man with 3 different quads.
I love Jason's programs this year and I am sad to see them both go. I think he made a strong statement for himself with four beautiful programs between Worlds & WTT but I don't think any decisions have been made yet. His 3As have been looking much improved. Hopefully Frank can work with him on his quads and he can get at least one (preferably 2) consistent. But the last two years before Jason made it to nationals he was injured. So I am a little concerned about his health for next year.
I am thrilled Adam is keeping his beautiful bird FS. Hopefully after SOI he will be able to pick up his training as planned with no set backs.
Josh could end up anywhere. I am hoping he is skating well and we will be seeing him in some summer competitions, maybe even leading to the SA spot.
ilovepaydays
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My gut believes that Max will improve next season. I just don't know if that will mean he is in the top 3 at U.S. Nationals. It's going to be rough to watch if he just misses out on another Olympic team.
I am optimistic about Josh's return - but we have no idea if elements like his spins have been permanently affected. I hope not. Hopefully - he will be in couple of charity shows or something before the fall and we'll get a better idea of what his overall skating looks like. According to his comeback article, he said that his edges are better than ever, but we don't know if they are as good as Jason's, much less how his overall PCS will be judged next season.
I do think once Adam is able to resume full training, he should consider dropping the 4Lz and go for a 4T.
Ross has typically had a stronger SP at U.S. Nationals - that will be key to being in the conversation.
I hope that Nathan and Jason will remain healthy next season. I do wonder how much equipment issues will affect Nathan if he is indeed wearing down boots/blades quicker - we don't know exactly how many more quads he is practicing every day vs. Max, or Jason, or the rest of the U.S. men's field.
I am optimistic about Josh's return - but we have no idea if elements like his spins have been permanently affected. I hope not. Hopefully - he will be in couple of charity shows or something before the fall and we'll get a better idea of what his overall skating looks like. According to his comeback article, he said that his edges are better than ever, but we don't know if they are as good as Jason's, much less how his overall PCS will be judged next season.
I do think once Adam is able to resume full training, he should consider dropping the 4Lz and go for a 4T.
Ross has typically had a stronger SP at U.S. Nationals - that will be key to being in the conversation.
I hope that Nathan and Jason will remain healthy next season. I do wonder how much equipment issues will affect Nathan if he is indeed wearing down boots/blades quicker - we don't know exactly how many more quads he is practicing every day vs. Max, or Jason, or the rest of the U.S. men's field.
misskarne
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He was explicitly left off the list of "in contention" skaters that kicked off this particular discussion.
EDIT. Never mind the rest. Nobody cares about the blatant double-standard. Because it's only Max.
Bellanca
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Max is definitely in the mix. Nothing is etched in stone. No done deals. Max has as good a shot at making the team as any of the rest of them because history shows that an Olympic year can be pretty unpredictable.
paskatefan
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I'm truly hoping that Max has a terrific Olympic season & makes the US Olympic team. I also hopes he keeps his new sp, which was fabulous in practice @ US Nationals.
The tenor of discussion is so much healthier since 3 spots were secured. Another aspect about the Olympic season which should hopefully provide some motivation for ALL of these talented athletes to continue striving, is that there is more than the usual amount of "post Nationals" opportunity - i.e., Four Continents will be a team of 3 men (usually "4, 5, 6") getting the opportunity to earn valuable "ISU Championship" valued points, and the "post Olympics Worlds" can also include some different team members with typically also a different/less deep competitive field (Olympic medalists from wherever, perhaps finding it too exhausting to put it all on the line again within 3 weeks, or using that time to capitalize on off-ice opportunities which are fleeting.
vesperholly
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It's not productive to overreact. One person left Max (and Ross, and Grant) off their list. Don't attribute malice to an oversight. I haven't seen anyone here "throwing him in the trash heap". He had a bad season, so his prospects seem muted.
clairecloutier
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Really enjoyed watching Jason at WTT. Great to see him close out his season with 2 strong skates. I love his "Writing on the Wall" SP so much that I almost hope he keeps it next year (and I'm generally not a fan of reprising programs). For the FS, I would like to see something considerably livelier and more upbeat than his last 2 LPs (Tristan, Piano). I agree with whoever said above that Jason's personality needs to be brought out more in his programs. He is such a great skater that he can interpret any music beautifully, but at the same time he's a happy & optimistic person, and the last 2 LPs just don't reflect that at all, and I would like to see something more upbeat next year, or at least less somber. Also still hoping that a quad can become a reality somehow ... He scores SO well even without a quad. With a quad, it would be even better!
As to Nathan, TBH, I hope he spends this summer working mostly on presentation, and also I hope he gets much better and more modern programs this season. Please, no more classical 101. It's like there's nothing really wrong with his programs, but when you compare them to most of the other top men, they just look dated and lacking in personality. Sorry, JMO.
As to Nathan, TBH, I hope he spends this summer working mostly on presentation, and also I hope he gets much better and more modern programs this season. Please, no more classical 101. It's like there's nothing really wrong with his programs, but when you compare them to most of the other top men, they just look dated and lacking in personality. Sorry, JMO.
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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Really?
This shows you how figure skating is about perspective, tastes and how we see something because I see Jason's personality come through in his SP and free almost more than anyone. All I would say for him is to get a couple quads, and thats my notes on him. LOL
Anywhooo @clairecloutier can we expect a pairs WTT article from you?
olympic
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He popped the loop, too. That was like a loss of 5 points, so he could conceivably score near 280 points being perfect. I also notice he no longer does the 'tano Lutz. I wonder why. That might help the GOE
clairecloutier
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I don't think so @AngieNikodinovLove (although thanks for asking)! Still worn out from writing my Worlds review LOL.
I agree with all of this. I could live with the classical warhorses if Nathan didn't look like he was rushing from jump to jump without taking time to finish moves and reach full extension. More modern programs would be great, but he still needs to do less rushing and skate with more intention. Kostner does such a good job at that.
Jason is such a beautiful skater, but his LP choices are too quiet and inwardly focused for me. I liked the way The Question of U worked (though it was an SP) and the energy of Riverdance.
Firedancer
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I think I would like to see Nathan with a program similar to his exhibition. Perhaps working with Jeff Buttle?
olympic
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I loved Jason's 'Tristan and Isolde' LP from a couple of years ago. That was more outward and dramatic and when skated cleanly was a wonder.
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