U.S. Men 2023-24 news & updates

alice73

Well-Known Member
Messages
71
And Ilia. I'm still recovering. :lol: I have no time for people focused on nitpicking after watching that incredible spectacle. It was just glorious. I became sold on Ilia as a fantastic performer (not just jumper) after seeing him live at SA 2022 (including but certainly not limited to seeing that quad axel right in front of me), and he's improved leaps and bounds in non-jump areas in the 1.5 years since. I can only imagine what the energy in that arena felt like last night.
This 100%. Ilia obviously isn’t artistic like Jason or Yuma or Shoma but he is a great performer. This was on display last night. Anyone who keeps saying he’s only winning because of the jumps needs to take the blinders off.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,697
This 100%. Ilia obviously isn’t artistic like Jason or Yuma or Shoma but he is a great performer. This was on display last night. Anyone who keeps saying he’s only winning because of the jumps needs to take the blinders off.
I don't think anyone has said he's winning only because of the jumps, but the fact of the matter is his difficulty level in TES with the 4A, all the other quads, and crazy combinations is distancing him far apart from the rest of the skaters for it to not make a difference when they hand him 9+ PCS.

This is nothing new in the history of IJS or even 6.0 skating and nothing exclusive to Ilia, and the thing is that bumping his PCS down to a more accurate level is still going to result in him winning by a large margin when he skates like he did last night.

But, objectively speaking: the first 2 minutes of his free skate offer very little in terms of showing off any skating skills, there's next to no choreography, and the only 'performance' level one can really speak of is in the audience excitement over him landing the difficult jumps. He knows he has a long way to go in skating skills and he's certainly not at a 9.00+ level if one were to read the criteria of the component, but one judge even handed him a 9.75 last night. I think I'd find the judges very hard-pressed to explain 9+ composition scores with the program being so lopsided/focused, too.

I want there to be the same kind of differentiation in PCS, rewarding the skaters that do in fact have complete mastery over their skating skills, keep the performance level from start to finish, and do have very strong program compositions. Ilia gets that big differentiation in TES, but then the PCS scores tend to go out the window when the big jumps/leaders come around.

Alas, it's not going to ever happen which makes my or anyone else's ranting almost pointless.
 
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Sylvia

TBD
Messages
80,245
And now they can fix their mistake in the Malinin article that he was in 4th after the SP. Where are their fact checkers?
FWIW I tweeted the WaPo sports editor & the journalist... we'll see if it gets corrected.

Phil Hersh's article for NBC Sports includes their video of Ilia's FS and kiss & cry with his dad + his interview with Andrea Joyce (geoblocked outside the U.S., I assume):

Since she also wrote about C/B & Isabeau, I've posted Christine Brennan's USA Today column (headline: Ilia Malinin nails six quadruple jumps and leads US team's stunning performance at worlds) in the Montreal Worlds thread in GSD: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ships-in-montreal.110351/page-29#post-6579295
 
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Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
967
Ilia is improving. And wasn't much the same said about Nathan at a similar point in his career? Ditto with Pluschenko.

Nathan always had some basic dance training and musicality. The “he’s just a jumper” narrative was wishful thinking by fans of … other skaters … more than it ever was reality, IMO. I’m already more impressed with Ilia as a performer than I ever was with Pluschenko, though.

And seriously. Yuma is right up there with my all-time faves at this point and I think he’s pretty much the perfect blend of technical skill and everything else, but I’m not going to try to argue with a straight face that Ilia didn’t convincingly win that world title. Ilia’s particular strengths are not the things I always get most excited about, but that FS was crazy impressive.

As far as Jason is concerned, I’m really impressed by what he did considering the shape he was in at nationals. It’ll be interesting to see how he approaches the next couple of years, but at this point with a home country worlds and another realistic shot at the Olympics both on the horizon, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s motivated to keep pushing forward on the competitive side. If things don’t change a lot for the U.S. men, it’s not unrealistic to think he could end up skating a segment of the team event in 2026 (there’s a reason Nathan never did both).
 

olympic

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,905
Re Ilia, I do believe what is said is true but there was a certain emotion and passion in his programs this past week. It used to help out in the 2nd mark under 6.0, and it must contribute something to IJS.

FTR, I agree that something must be done in re PCS
 

Lizziebeth

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,853
The men's competition was fabulous. I loved watching Adam in the chair of honor for most of the evening and finally get a medal. The thing I appreciate most about Ilia is his competitive mindset - he knows how to get the job done. Jason can come back next year with better programs to cool music!
 

alice73

Well-Known Member
Messages
71
I don't think anyone has said he's winning only because of the jumps, but the fact of the matter is his difficulty level in TES with the 4A, all the other quads, and crazy combinations is distancing him far apart from the rest of the skaters for it to not make a difference when they hand him 9+ PCS.

This is nothing new in the history of IJS or even 6.0 skating and nothing exclusive to Ilia, and the thing is that bumping his PCS down to a more accurate level is still going to result in him winning by a large margin when he skates like he did last night.

But, objectively speaking: the first 2 minutes of his free skate offer very little in terms of showing off any skating skills, there's next to no choreography, and the only 'performance' level one can really speak of is in the audience excitement over him landing the difficult jumps. He knows he has a long way to go in skating skills and he's certainly not at a 9.00+ level if one were to read the criteria of the component, but one judge even handed him a 9.75 last night. I think I'd find the judges very hard-pressed to explain 9+ composition scores with the program being so lopsided/focused, too.

I want there to be the same kind of differentiation in PCS, rewarding the skaters that do in fact have complete mastery over their skating skills, keep the performance level from start to finish, and do have very strong program compositions. Ilia gets that big differentiation in TES, but then the PCS scores tend to go out the window when the big jumps/leaders come around.

Alas, it's not going to ever happen which makes my or anyone else's ranting almost pointless.
I’m not here to argue. I’m here to support the skaters. Yes, there’s an objective criteria, I’m well aware of it. Figure skating, like life, isn’t purely objective. Last night I watched Jason, Adam, Yuma and Ilia, each different and each glorious. It reminded me, a figure skating fan of 40 years, why I love this sport. The passion that Ilia brought to his program last night along with the mind blowing technical content is enough for me. Plus he did it under tremendous pressure. Still basically a kid at 19. I see no reason to nitpick.
 

orbitz

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,492
But, objectively speaking: the first 2 minutes of his free skate offer very little in terms of showing off any skating skills, there's next to no choreography, and the only 'performance' level one can really speak of is in the audience excitement over him landing the difficult jumps.

The same thing with Nathan's LP at the 2021 World. There was almost no choreography for 2/3 of the program until he let loose at the final footwork during the last few seconds of the program. But Nathan did have better body lines, and I liked his music better than 'Succession'.

As awesome as Ilia's overall performance was, I did think that the choreography after the 4sal and before the second 4lutz was uninteresting, unconvincing and displayed little skating skills when compared to Yuma.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
Messages
21,757
You know what, it's officially the off-season now so I'll bite.

The thing is, Nathan was a much natural mover and had better blade control. This allowed him to disguise lighter choreographed areas better than Ilia. I'm not trying to talk bad about Ilia, it just is what it is. So Nathan's jumps were more of a natural part of the program than Ilia's, and I think that's the difference. I do think with some work and smart construction Ilia's team can overcome this.

He's never going to be Yuma Kagiyama, but who is? Yuma is just beyond. He's going to get that world championship one day too, trust. But Ilia was the top scorer at this worlds. There's no denying that.
 

sk9tingfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,749
You know what, it's officially the off-season now so I'll bite.

The thing is, Nathan was a much natural mover and had better blade control. This allowed him to disguise lighter choreographed areas better than Ilia. I'm not trying to talk bad about Ilia, it just is what it is. So Nathan's jumps were more of a natural part of the program than Ilia's, and I think that's the difference. I do think with some work and smart construction Ilia's team can overcome this.

He's never going to be Yuma Kagiyama, but who is? Yuma is just beyond. He's going to get that world championship one day too, trust. But Ilia was the top scorer at this worlds. There's no denying that.
Nathan's 2021 free skate, the ultimate program....
 

Wyliefan

Ubering juniors against my will
Messages
44,076
Nathan is Nathan and Ilia is Ilia. Aside from both being power jumpers, they're SO different. Nathan had natural musicality and style (which he's never gotten enough credit for). But Ilia has something special of his own, and I'm really glad we've had them both.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
36,354
Nathan is Nathan and Ilia is Ilia. Aside from both being power jumpers, they're SO different. Nathan had natural musicality and style (which he's never gotten enough credit for). But Ilia has something special of his own, and I'm really glad we've had them both.
Same. I love both of them even though they are very different skaters in many regards. We are just so lucky to have had them. It's remarkable that the US has managed to produce two of the most naturally gifted jumpers in the sport's recent history.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,701
I think Malinin's costume put a more junior-ish stamp on him than his actual skating projected. It was fussy and Halloween-costume-ish, and I don't care if it was an exact replica of a character, which I don't know, having never seen whatever the music is to. (It didn't work for Miura, either, IMO.) I wasn't there to see his bladework, but he would look so much better in something plainer and more grown up. The kid is gorgeous.
 

AYS

🌻
Messages
24,664
I'm only partway through season 1 of Succession, but unless the show is going to change radically, I have no idea what Ilia's costume has to do with it. It seems like a suit (or rumpled suit with no tie) would have been more like it, based on what I've seen so far. But he might just have been considering the music and the costume more abstractly (I think he said he hadn't watched the show). Which I think can be fine, music can give you ideas and feelings all on its own, without being familiar with the show, movie, ballet story, etc. (Although viewers familiar with the show will have their own notions). But I agree the costume wasn't a sophisticated look.

I actually think it's great music for a skating program, and a well suited choice for him at this stage of his development.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,701
If he wasn't trying to portray a character with that costume, then it was even more WTF?

The music was great for him.
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,809
In defense of Josh Groban (but not Jason's recent music selections), The Impossible Dream is corny no matter who sings it.
I hope that Jason picks a different song and type of song next season. I don't think he'll use this program for another season even though he hasn't competed with it that many times. I may be in the minority, but I liked the short program music.

Also, while we're on the subject of music, I hope that Ilia picks the music he wants next season. (People can tell me until they are blue in the face that Ilia wanted to skate to Malaguena, but I never will believe them.) I think he is so much more fun to watch with music that he seems to like.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
36,354
Also... On the topic of Jason and his plans for next season... Part of me is feeling like maybe he should do the GP next season. He doesn't have to go in with the intensity to win/medal/qualify for the GPF necessarily but if he really is getting new programs for next season I think he would be better served competing them on the GP circuit rather than lowkey at Japan Open and a Challenger.
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,809
He might not have chosen Malaguena himself but I thought it was an excellent fit for Ilia, especially with the very specific desire for him to grow artistically.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I didn't think it was a good fit for him. I never thought he really captured the spirt of the music. It wasn't horrible by any means, but I think he could have grown artistically without doing it. It's cute that he skated to the same music his mother did, but I think there were so many better options.
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,809
Also... On the topic of Jason and his plans for next season... Part of me is feeling like maybe he should do the GP next season. He doesn't have to go in with the intensity to win/medal/qualify for the GPF necessarily but if he really is getting new programs for next season I think he would be better served competing them on the GP circuit rather than lowkey at Japan Open and a Challenger.
We'll once again have to agree to disagree. Jason has nagging injuries after a long career and is trying to avoid aggravating them. I think he's also trying to avoid burnout. He thought he overdid it this year with commitments and was tempted not to finish the season competitively. If he is going to change anything, I would say that he should cut down a little on the shows. The smaller ones that still require travel might be the ones to cut.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
Messages
36,354
idk late-era Michelle Kwanning it seems to be working for now and he's not a spring chicken
Oh, I know. And I'm going back and forth about it. I guess I just look at it in terms of if he's really decided he's serious about aiming for Milano-Cortina (which... fine, it's not like any of our other men aside from Ilia are stepping up to grab that brass ring) then maybe doing the GP next season would be a good idea.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
Messages
21,757
Oh, I know. And I'm going back and forth about it. I guess I just look at it in terms of if he's really decided he's serious about aiming for Milano-Cortina (which... fine, it's not like any of our other men aside from Ilia are stepping up to grab that brass ring) then maybe doing the GP next season would be a good idea.
you better watch out torgy's rise to the top starts now 🕯️ 🕯️ 🕯️
 

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