U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Tesla]

I have a feeling that Vincent's bad FS has forced them to pick Jason. Jason will be a safer pick for the team FS in Beijing.

This.

 

[Karen-W]

But the thing is the US has a pretty solid hold on 2nd, maybe pushing for 1st if everything goes right. But you and I both know that means Nathan winning the team event SP. Jason probably wouldn’t do so.. that just moves them back into comfortable silver position.

Well, we both know the Men is a total crapshoot. Who knows who Japan will use in the TE. If it's Hanyu, I don't think Nathan is going to beat him in the SP for either the TE or the individual event. Hanyu has the far superior SP. So, if we're looking at 2nd (yeah, I know we need the points), Jason is certainly as good of a bet as any other man that will be competing there to finish at least that high. And, if Hanyu has an off night, Jason's one of the few who could beat him. And if it's Uno or Kagiyama, well... Again, neither of those guys are consistent in the SP, so Jason could come out of it with 1st place points.

 

[gatorinfl]

I think the US is aiming for gold, is hoping Chen does the short, and want Jason for the stability in the long. Vincent is a known wildcard, and who knows how Ilia would be with the Olympics as his first major senior competition.

Exactly. Look at both Nathan and Bradie Tennell at the last Olympics.

 

[becca]

Honestly people treating this like a scandal and USFS is horrible and saying Ilia should go to another country and stuff are totally overreacting. I'm sure there was firey debate in that conference room. I wouldn't doubt that was part of the many delays in announcing the team.

But honestly though I 100% agree Ilia deserves it over Vincent because Vincent could very well bomb. But over Jason? Ilia has done well on the JGP, but as I said earlier he doesn't yet have the PCS or GOE to keep up in the field. Even with identical skates as they had at Nationals, an international panel may put Jason above or around the same place as Ilia due to the difference in PCS and GOE.

It is a scandal how is a skater suppose to develop a body of work if they are never given a chance to compete?

I absol

They can. The German Fed's proposal to limit the amount of time a Fed could hold a skater, IIRC to two years, was killed through the majority vote including a big number of small federations. Instead, we're left with typical ISU commitment anxiety:



The ISU Council is the sole arbitrator of whether holding a skater is "unreasonable." They also have to right to overrule a Fed that won't release a skater, but, there has never been a Council decision document doing this. When Massot was being held by the French Fed, the ISU Council told the German and French Feds to figure it out between themselves.

There is a rumor that being a citizen means the ISU might lean on the Fed that holds the skater, if it's a long hold, but nothing in writing. Even with enough loopholes and vague language wider than the Chunnel.

but given how he was just treated and the kick in the face he was given he may have an argument

 

[On My Own]

People are acting like Ilia is a much better skater than his record and protocols show.

Personally, I thought he just deserved it because he handily outscored third and fourth place. I get there are tier criteria, but the scoring gap was just too big. I don't really have any investment in the USFSA's future (and probably not even skating for much longer, lol), so that isn't my reason. And I enjoyed his performances more than Zhou, so there's that too.

Anyway, I wish both Brown and Zhou luck. Probably there will be backlash if they don't skate well, now.

 

[soogar]

That is my suspicion—Nathan is not doing the team event at all and USFS wants a known quantity for the short with senior international championship experience. Vincent is not reliable enough and Malinin is untested at this level. If Nathan is not doing the team event, I’d put Brown up in the short and Vincent in the free.

Without Jason around, if Nathan doesn’t skate the team event, then the choice is Vincent, who didn’t make the long at worlds last year, or someone with zero senior international championship experience.

With this lineup, I’m going to be zero percent surprised if no Nathan in the team event.

Let’s go with the theory that Nathan won’t do the team event to rest for the main event. Jason may then be the only man doing the team event because Vincent so erratic. In a reduced field, he could easily make top 3 in both short and long.

 

[jlai]

These are the same arguments for Ross though Ross didn’t have the young unproven card.

 

[becca]

Once again a new senior especially in men’s is never going to have body of work

 

[Karen-W]

I have a feeling that Vincent's bad FS has forced them to pick Jason. Jason will be a safer pick for the team FS in Beijing.

Dear God, no, he wouldn't. Not the way he skated today. Neither of them are a great bet for the FS but if Vincent hits then he can win the FS. Jason can't win the TE FS even with a clean program - something, I might note, he hasn't managed all season.

 

[Spikefan]

Did they name 4CC and Worlds team?

 

[kwanfan1818]

but given how he was just treated and the kick in the face he was given he may have an argument

.

The ISU does not get involved with the way that the Federations choose their skaters. The IOC can, if the nominating Federations don't follow their published selection procedures, but exactly how does choosing between two skaters in Group 3 for the final spot violate the USFS rules? Or, for that matter, accepting Liu's or Kni/Fra's petitions?

 

[CantALoop]

Oh well, at least with Jason Brown on the team, US viewers are guaranteed to see at least two groups of men's free skates at the Olympics and watch him battle it out for 7th place.

 

[dinakt]

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.
I do not like this- there are never guarantees for tomorrow, and if one is clearly superior right before the Olympics, I think they should have an edge.

 

[concorde]

But would representing Uzbekistan be a bad ideas politically - and affect his scores? Just thinking of the possible downsides.

Also, does Uzbekistan allow dual citizenship?

Ilia's dad was a strong skater but got penalized for not being from a big federation. One male skater of that era told me that Roman would have been ranked much higher if he had come from another country.

 

[Willin]

You know what, I'm staying out of this. No matter what anyone says this will continue further down an illogical spiral of insulting just about everyone involved: skaters, judges, federations, other posters, etc. I'll see y'all when everyone is calmer.

 

[BittyBug]

These are the same arguments for Ross though Ross didn’t have the young unproven card.

The big difference between Miner and Malinin is trajectory. Miner was at the end of his career, having had a decidedly lackluster fall season and a history of failing to rise to the occasion at Worlds. Further, while a great skater when he hit, he had little to distinguish himself from his competitors.

In contrast, Malinin is clearly very much on the rise, and has an arsenal of quads that make him a podium threat, while Miner was at best a top 10 hope.

 

[LilJen]

There is not enough laughter for that. Ilia was TWENTY points ahead of Brown here, even with far lower PCS and GOE!

302 - 289 = 13. Not 20.

 

[soogar]

These are the same arguments for Ross though Ross didn’t have the young unproven card.

Ross only had one quad. This kid has a ton of quads. I’m sure if he had skated in Russian nats they would have put him on the team.

 

[concorde]

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.
I do not like this- there are never guarantees for tomorrow, and if one is clearly superior right before the Olympics, I think they should have an edge.

Both (men and ladies) 1st alternates are first year seniors. I bet one skates in Behjing.

 

[Cherub721]

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.
I do not like this- there are never guarantees for tomorrow, and if one is clearly superior right before the Olympics, I think they should have an edge.

In hindsight it's surprising that Polina made it in 2014.

 

[Seerek]

Oh well, at least with Jason Brown on the team, US viewers are guaranteed to see at least two groups of men's free skates at the Olympics and watch him battle it out for 7th place.

In Pyeongchang, didn't US viewers see some of 3 groups of free skates?

 

[Deleted member 221]

I just dislike the lifetime achievement aspect of USFSA's selections. Figure skating is a sport. Ice is slippery. There are going to be heartbreaking results, but the 'body of work' loophole IMO just creates a very stagnant sport.

Agree. This system has built-in biases against skaters who peak in an Olympic year and up-and-coming skaters. It's enormously problematic with all of the cancellations of competitions, especially for younger skaters.

Let's go back in time and send Scott Davis instead of Rudy Galindo to 1996 Worlds . Or Tonia Kwiatkowski over Tara Lipinski (who'd have no body of work due to age limits). Absolute shambles.

 

[vesperholly]

I just dislike the lifetime achievement aspect of USFSA's selections. Figure skating is a sport. Ice is slippery. There are going to be heartbreaking results, but the 'body of work' loophole IMO just creates a very stagnant sport.

If they were only deciding Worlds this year, I'm sure they would've gone with Ilia (if he can get the SP minimum in time). Like it or not, to many, the Olympics is a lifetime achievement event.

 

[aka_gerbil]

In Pyeongchang, didn't US viewers see some of 3 groups of free skates?

They showed early groups on NBC Sports Network, so a lot of people could actually see everyone skate.

 

[Karen-W]

If they were only deciding Worlds this year, I'm sure they would've gone with Ilia (if he can get the SP minimum in time). Like it or not, to many, the Olympics is a lifetime achievement event.

And Jason already had a trip to the Olympics and has a team bronze from that accomplishment. So, what's your point?

 

[kwanfan1818]

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.

It tells skaters that they might not have a chance for the Olympics berth if they have skated junior for much of the season leading up to Nationals. Malinin skated once in senior international competition this season. He's not generally what is considered a first-year senior skater.

Polina Edmunds was chosen with no international senior competition in 2014, but her competition -- Nagasu -- didn't really have a stronger BOW argument. (I don't think it was between Wagner and Nagasu, but Edmonds and Nagasu.)

Miner isn't the equivalent of Malinin: unfortunately, his senior BOW was a known, consistent entity.

 

[CantALoop]

In Pyeongchang, didn't US viewers see some of 3 groups of free skates?

Who knows, we might get that depending on what flavor of Vincent shows up to Beijing.

 

[Trillian]

It is a scandal how is a skater suppose to develop a body of work if they are never given a chance to compete?

Ilia did have a senior international this season and he had a disappointing showing there. I would guess that was very much a part of the conversation for the selection committee. Ilia was very much given a chance to compete, and he didn’t do as much as he needed to do. This is not about Jason’s entire career, it’s about the fact that he was decidedly more competitive against tougher fields internationally this season. Ilia was amazing at nationals and I hope he has a bright future, but Jason is the one who actually demonstrated that he can compete with the top skaters in the world this season.

 

[smarts1]

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.
I do not like this- there are never guarantees for tomorrow, and if one is clearly superior right before the Olympics, I think they should have an edge.

Polina Edmunds?

 

[canbelto]

If they were only deciding Worlds this year, I'm sure they would've gone with Ilia (if he can get the SP minimum in time). Like it or not, to many, the Olympics is a lifetime achievement event.

If it was a lifetime achievement event, then Michelle would have won over Tara, Sara Hughes probably never would have gotten near the podium, Patrick Chan would have won in Sochi, Torvill/Dean would have won in Lillehammer ...