U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

I just want to say I loved Ilia’s SP immensely and I would love to see him on the team too. I just don’t like a lot of the arguments dismissing Jason or not understanding what a high quality and competitive skater he has shown to be with the numbers to back it up. Just like I haven’t enjoyed posts dismissing Vincent when despite his inconsistency has shown himself to have a high ceiling (that is world medal contender level) and one that he has met multiple times. I just want to see what happens in the long program and go from there.

I do think Jason (and everyone else) has to skate well tomorrow. Ilia is no Paniot and with that I mean the GOE and PCS deficit won’t nearly be as wide between him and Jason as it would be between Paniot and Jason. Even with that deficit, Paniot almost beat Jason overall at Nationals last year so Jason has to bring it.
 
VGThuy said:
I just want to say I loved Ilia’s SP immensely and I would love to see him on the team too. I just don’t like a lot of the arguments dismissing Jason or not understanding what a high quality and competitive skater he has shown to be with the numbers to back it up. Just like I haven’t enjoyed posts dismissing Vincent when despite his inconsistency has shown himself to have a high ceiling (that is world medal contender level) and one that he has met multiple times. I just want to see what happens in the long program and go from there.

I do think Jason (and everyone else) has to skate well tomorrow. Ilia is no Paniot and with that I mean the GOE and PCS deficit won’t nearly be as wide between him and Jason as it would be between Paniot and Jason. Even with that deficit, Paniot almost beat Jason overall at Nationals last year so Jason has to bring it.
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Jason has had a great career but it’s not dismissing him to point out that jumpwise he is no where near the rest of the men technically.

There are skaters who have quads and good presentation/ skating skills example Hanyu, Kolyoda. Kamila.

That for me I am sorry Makes me feel quads are the part of the package.

A compete skater is well rounded.

It’s not dismissing Jason to point out the obvious that if everyone skates their best he will slot in at the lower top 10 in the world.

It’s still a technically great thing to achieve. I will not be top 10 in the world in anything.

But when we are talking about versus a talented kid who could be the best in the world very quickly. It’s fair to point out this difference.
 
skateboy said:
Just chiming in to remind everyone that there were a number of posters here questioning whether NATHAN should be named to the Olympic team, after the Skate America results...

That's all. Carry on.
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Well that’s ridiculous 😂. I actually thought him having a shaky performance was a good thing
 
skateboy said:
Just chiming in to remind everyone that there were a number of posters here questioning whether NATHAN should be named to the Olympic team, after the Skate America results...

That's all. Carry on.
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There were? I think there was some questioning about which Group he was for that one week between SkAm and SCI, but once he bounced back to Worlds Top 3 level, everyone breathed a sigh of relief. I don't think there was ever any question about him being named to the Olympic team. Maybe the question was whether we should be anointing him Olympic champion before the season was even close to being done, lol.
 
Karen-W said:
There were? I think there was some questioning about which Group he was for that one week between SkAm and SCI, but once he bounced back to Worlds Top 3 level, everyone breathed a sigh of relief. I don't think there was ever any question about him being named to the Olympic team. Maybe the question was whether we should be anointing him Olympic champion before the season was even close to being done, lol.
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It was just a handful of posters... I would say more than one and less than five.

Still ridiculous, of course. :)
 
concorde said:
Why would Ilia do that?

And exactly what country would he represent? Please don't say that it would be the country his parents represented. His parents were not from there but they were assigned that country to represent when the USSR split.
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If you think Russian isn't putting out feelers you are crazy. They have no one in the pipeline even remotely as talented.
 
Jarrett said:
If you think Russian isn't putting out feelers you are crazy. They have no one in the pipeline even remotely as talented.
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Oh, I wouldn't say that. They qualified 4 men into the JGPF - Yablokov, Sarnovskiy and Lutfullin were all really impressive. None of them were able to quite translate that into success at Russian Nats this year and who knows if any of them will ultimately make a mark on the senior level but those guys are all insanely talented - especially Sarnovskiy. I've got my eye on him since he only turned 16 this week - we'll see in two years where he's at.
 
skatingguy said:
Sitting out a year would ruin his career - it's different for pairs/dance where the careers are longer.
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I don't see how he just turned 17 weeks ago. Men have much longer careers usually and sitting out a year after the Olympics is probably as good as time as ever. That said, what I said originally is there would probably be talk about a country switch if he skated well and wasn't put on the team, not that is would actually happen.
 
Jarrett said:
I think placement really has less to do but how they skate. If Ilia is 3rd with a little better than Jason skate I don't really think the result changes much and USFSA will probably send Jason but if Ilia skates lights out with multiple quads and Jason struggles and is fourth or fifth do you really think they would send him. I think the answer from most would be no. While I have no knowledge of this even being a possibility I wouldn't be surprised to see talk of Ilia skating for a different country like what was happening with Mirai back in the day.
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I think this is the correct scenario. If Malinin is virtually tied with Jason they will send Jason. But Malinin had a great JGP season and has shown he is a reliable competitor. If Malinin finishes 10 points above Jason he goes. It will be a Sarah Hughes 2002 situation. No one including her thought she was the best skater. But technically she was so ahead of the field the judges had no choice but give her the gold.

That said, I'm betting on Jason. He's been in this situation before. He knows to screen everything out and do his job. The 4S is the only risky bit; he'll have to try and closely land it.
 
VGThuy said:
A lot of skaters even with quads have consistently placed behind Jason at Worlds, and pretty consistently. The USFS can give Ilia his shot next year and he won’t suffer politically if he can keep jumping like that. We’ve seen upstarts before. I just don’t like this argument that we should stop judging properly for political reasons. Let Ilia make his own case tomorrow. If he flies past Jason or even an underperforming Nathan and Vincent, then that’ll say what needs to be said.
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I love Jason’s skating but what Ilia showed in the short program is on a different level than the guys stumbling around on jumps who finish below Jason. Jason is the best skater out there, but his tech level is not there. Ilia’s jumps have great technique and IMO, they actually look easier and less labored than Nathan’s and Vincent’s quads. He doesn’t have the pressure on him either and I think he could help sweep the medals. He may even win. Unfortunately with Jason. he will never be in a discussion to actually win the a gold. We’ll see if he holds up tomorrow but he has room to make a mistake or two with multiple quads. He’s doesn’t have Jason’s presentation, but his spins were great and he has difficult entrances and exits to those quads.
 
I really do not get all the hate for Jason from some posters. You are judging his technical abilities based on quads alone, when his other elements are often far above what others can do. I read an article recently in which Brian Orser talked about being in awe of what Jason can do. Other skaters recognize his skills and the difficulty of his other elements, why can’t you? And, he got it done at Worlds last year when Vincent imploded. Making it out of qualifying and into the top 10 is a “middling” result that many skaters would love to achieve. I’d say Vincent would’ve been happy with that. (and, I’m not bashing Vincent. He has had an amazing season)

Since when is the Olympics an event in which you send young skaters to get the experience? That’s not what it is. At this point, Jason has met all the criteria. Ilia has not - yet. The free skate will tell a lot.
 
soogar said:
I love Jason’s skating but what Ilia showed in the short program is on a different level than the guys stumbling around on jumps who finish below Jason.
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“Guys stumbling around on jumps?” You must’ve watched a different SP than I did.

There’s no need to make up false criticisms of other US guys to praise Ilia. He does enough wonderful things on his own. Including his textbook jumps. (I think the judges shafted Ilia on GoE for his jumps in comparison to Nate and Vincent.)
 
wickedwitch said:
“Guys stumbling around on jumps?” You must’ve watched a different SP than I did.

There’s no need to make up false criticisms of other US guys to praise Ilia. He does enough wonderful things on his own. Including his textbook jumps. (I think the judges shafted Ilia on GoE for his jumps in comparison to Nate and Vincent.)
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I’m talking about Jason’s world placements over guys with quads. Jason does beat guys with quads who make mistakes or have really empty programs, but that’s not Ilia.
 
SorrySkater said:
I really do not get all the hate for Jason from some posters. You are judging his technical abilities based on quads alone, when his other elements are often far above what others can do. I read an article recently in which Brian Orser talked about being in awe of what Jason can do. Other skaters recognize his skills and the difficulty of his other elements, why can’t you? And, he got it done at Worlds last year when Vincent imploded. Making it out of qualifying and into the top 10 is a “middling” result that many skaters would love to achieve. I’d say Vincent would’ve been happy with that. (and, I’m not bashing Vincent. He has had an amazing season)

Since when is the Olympics an event in which you send young skaters to get the experience? That’s not what it is. At this point, Jason has met all the criteria. Ilia has not - yet. The free skate will tell a lot.
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No one hates Jason. It’s a shame he can’t do quads because his triples are huge. But multiple quads have been around for the men for a while. Jason has been a top 10 skater without a quad for years. It’s a testament that he can compete so well without one. However Ilia is really a fantastic skater, both tech and components. He doesn’t have Jason’s presentation and polish, but he seems to have everything else. They sent Vincent with questionable jumps, though granted Ross Miner did not have the BOW that Adam had or Jason has.

It’s a shame they don’t have a pro skating circuit. That’s where Jason needs to be.
 
Jason's SP is so, so brilliant. If anything, the US judges are undermarking him on PCS. I wouldn't blink if they gave him 50.

I said this during Skate America and Cranberry Cup, but I'm blown away by Vincent's improvement on his musical interpretation. That must have taken a ton of work on his part. He's probably still getting overmarked in comparison to Jason on PCS, but not as nearly egregiously as before.

Camden!!!! I wonder what we had to sacrifice to get basically clean programs from notorious headcases Camden and Roman Sadovsky on the same day (OTOH, we have been in a global pandemic for two years now, and that seems like an even trade. But I'm not sure it's a fair trade.) I have no expectations for his LP, so I'll just enjoy this.

Also, lot's of love for Liam Kapeikis and Dihn Tran, who great and would have stood out more in a weaker field.
 
As much as I am craving it and want it, a part of me will be annoyed if Camden skates clean today because then, despite all the many examples to the contrary, it’ll reignite my hope that he can get it done in international competition and I’ll be using this one clean performance as my ray of hope for the rest of his career. I tried to swear off beautiful skaters who have real issues competing because it’s bad for my nerves, and yet I keep coming back.
 
I’m not American, so my stake in this discussion is different, but I watch the JGP events and I can tell you guys that Ilia Malinin would absolutely not score better than Jason Brown at the Olympics even if he was clean. He has nice jumps when he lands them, but he’s leagues behind in program components, which would be reflected in his scores and GOEs. Judges and fans alike love Jason Brown and want to see him in Beijing—what with his Sinnerman SP being one of the best men’s programs of this quad—where reputation scoring will be in full force.

That is why Jason Brown will be selected to go to the Olympics, and it will be the right decision.

I know it’s really exciting to have a competent junior skater break out at Nats, but I won’t bet on Malinin against Arlet Levandi at World Juniors in March, and Levandi doesn’t have a 3A. Just to put things in perspective for you.

As for Brown’s international record not being strong enough to justify picking him over someone else if he gets soundly beaten here... well. It really is, actually.
 
SorrySkater said:
I really do not get all the hate for Jason from some posters. You are judging his technical abilities based on quads alone, when his other elements are often far above what others can do. I read an article recently in which Brian Orser talked about being in awe of what Jason can do. Other skaters recognize his skills and the difficulty of his other elements, why can’t you? And, he got it done at Worlds last year when Vincent imploded. Making it out of qualifying and into the top 10 is a “middling” result that many skaters would love to achieve. I’d say Vincent would’ve been happy with that. (and, I’m not bashing Vincent. He has had an amazing season)

Since when is the Olympics an event in which you send young skaters to get the experience? That’s not what it is. At this point, Jason has met all the criteria. Ilia has not - yet. The free skate will tell a lot.
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No one is denying Jason’s good qualities but Orser is his coach it’s his job to talk him up. The fact is Jason’s jump content is more competitive with Orsers era.

Since when has the Olympics been used to give talented hound skaters experience. All the time.

Exhibit one Vincent Zhou. He doesn’t have the PCs he will never get Ross PCs - year later on World podium.

Polina Edmonds she doesn’t have PCs- as soon as she got to Seniors international competition she put in numbers ahead of all those people put in body of work claims that year.

Sasha Cohen this over Angela who had good results
Angela’s body of work argument is higher than Jason’s.

The US has a documented history of taking youngsters who have talented to the Olympics

This has often paid off for them.

If you have a young skater who has talent to be very competitive with the best in the world you get them out there early.

Ilia’s quads are undeniable. He is very very strong technically and he skates like he did in the short he will move up very quickly. It’s beneficial to get him Olympic experience and they have nothing to lose to do so.

Jason is a good skater but he has had years to show he could vie for world and Olympic medals and hasn’t.

I am not even going to argue that Illia will definitely place better than Jason at the Olympics.

My argument that Ilia long term ceiling is higher and giving him Olympic experience now could prepare him to be compete for world and Olympic medals over the next quad

Ilia has more potential than Liu.

I would actually add in Kimmie Meissner as another very young skater they gave experience to immediately and several months later she won a world title.
 
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SorrySkater said:
I really do not get all the hate for Jason from some posters. You are judging his technical abilities based on quads alone, when his other elements are often far above what others can do. I read an article recently in which Brian Orser talked about being in awe of what Jason can do. Other skaters recognize his skills and the difficulty of his other elements, why can’t you? And, he got it done at Worlds last year when Vincent imploded. Making it out of qualifying and into the top 10 is a “middling” result that many skaters would love to achieve. I’d say Vincent would’ve been happy with that. (and, I’m not bashing Vincent. He has had an amazing season)

Since when is the Olympics an event in which you send young skaters to get the experience? That’s not what it is. At this point, Jason has met all the criteria. Ilia has not - yet. The free skate will tell a lot.
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I want to point out that the USFSA has a long history of sending young men skaters to the Olympics to get the experience. That was exactly what its purpose was. The list includes: Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano, Evan Lysacek, Johnny Weir, Jason Brown, Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhao. The first four all went to two Olympics (and three of them took gold at their second one). This is Jason's third time trying to make the team (and has Team Bronze from his first attempt). Nathan and Vincent were clearly young skaters on their move up when they were named to the team.

Not doing it would be the change of policy on the USFS's part. Doing it has proven to be a successful technique.
 
Washington Post article on SP
Malinin, attempting jaw-dropping quad-quad combinations inside a practice rink. (not during Nationals practice, but home rink)
When asked about the video footage, Malinin was vague.
“I’ve been working on a lot of stuff that will definitely surprise a lot of people,” he said.
When asked if any of that “stuff” would be seen at Sunday’s free skate, especially with an unexpected spot in the Olympics on the line, he shook his head.
“I’m going to keep it a secret now,” he said.
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Is there a base score in ISU judging for a Quad/Quad combo?
 
Ilia typically has more issues in the short than the long so that hurdle has passed. Fingers crossed he does well today. Go Ilia!

Fyi. I like that USFS tends to give young skaters a chance at these big events only when they have 3 slots. Looks at who they selected as the 1st alternate for the ladies, Lindsay not Gabby. They will have 2 really strong men with Nathan and Vincent. Sending the youngsters is providing valuable experience for future events.
 
Ilia skates after Jason and Vincent. Only Nathan follows him.

If either Jason or Vincent show vulnerabilities, then I think Ilia should attempt a quad/quad combo, assuming it's legal under the rules.

When IJS first started it was supposed to reward new skills. A quad/quad should fall into that category.
 
skipaway said:
Washington Post article on SP


Is there a base score in ISU judging for a Quad/Quad combo?
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The BV for a combo is just the sum of its parts. So the BV for a 4T+4T would twice the BV of a single 4T. I don't agree with it, as the harder the first jump, the harder it is to tack on a combo, but them's the rules, and they've been that way since the inception of IJS.
 
missing said:
I want to point out that the USFSA has a long history of sending young men skaters to the Olympics to get the experience. That was exactly what its purpose was. The list includes: Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano, Evan Lysacek, Johnny Weir, Jason Brown, Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhao. The first four all went to two Olympics (and three of them took gold at their second one). This is Jason's third time trying to make the team (and has Team Bronze from his first attempt). Nathan and Vincent were clearly young skaters on their move up when they were named to the team.

Not doing it would be the change of policy on the USFS's part. Doing it has proven to be a successful technique.
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And not just that other than Hanyu in Sochi and that was horrible performance that I would hardly call a great example of grace under pressure

all previous men champions for decades had previous Olympic experience.

Hanyu second time, Evan, Plushenko, Yagudin (maybe why he beat Plushenko), Urmanov, Petrenko, Boitano, Scott etc…

The men aren’t the women and history indicates they do better with Olympic experience under their belt.

Repeatedly with young junior skaters we see arguments about pcs. And repeatedly the young skaters end up finishing ahead of the seniors with the lack of technical content when they deliver. Didn’t Vincent finish ahead of Rippon at the Olympics.

Ilia is very talented technically. And he needs experience he delivers jumps like he did he will live up quickly.

Taken Vincent four years ago paid off and Ilia’s jumps are better.

Looking at the criteria body of work isn’t designed to prop up a skater who isn’t consistently top three/top five in the world.
 
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