U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[feraina]

I was so sad that my favorite ladies competitor is out due to ykw but at least my favorite mens skater is going to make it. Go Jason!!!

 

[barbk]

I was so sad that my favorite ladies competitor is out due to ykw but at least my favorite mens skater is going to make it. Go Jason!!!

I hope you knocked on wood and threw salt over your shoulder.

 

[AYS]

Every time this thread has a new post, I’m afraid to look.

 

[carriecmu0503]

So in that scenario, Jason and Ilia are both group three. They have a skater who has been consistently top 10 in the world for years and made the GPF just this season versus a talented kid who blew the SP in his only senior international. I think some are underestimating how impressive Jason’s track record actually is. There are very few men in the world who can reliably score as high as he does every time out. Ilia has a ton of potential and may have a great showing, but there’s a reason the selection criteria includes more than just nationals. If he manages to place higher than 3rd, who knows. It’s possible.

At any rate, they won’t cancel the event and Jason will find a way to compete. At this point I’d be more concerned about who can test negative in a couple of weeks.

The Olympics are not a lifetime achievement award. Or at least, they shouldn't be. If Ilia Malinin comes in third at Nationals, I truly hope they send him. We have two medal contenders already in Nathan and Vincent, and if Ilia comes in third, it is my opinion we should invest in him. He is our (very near) future, as all of Nathan, Vincent, and Jason are possibly done after this season.

 

[ilovepaydays]

So….are they going to have some alternatives travel to Beijing? Just in case……………

 

[Allskate]

The Olympics are not a lifetime achievement award. Or at least, they shouldn't be. If Ilia Malinin comes in third at Nationals, I truly hope they send him. We have two medal contenders already in Nathan and Vincent, and if Ilia comes in third, it is my opinion we should invest in him. He is our (very near) future, as all of Nathan, Vincent, and Jason are possibly done after this season.

They Olympics are not a lifetime achievement award, but Nationals also is not an Olympic trials with the top three automatically going. The rules for selection make that clear. There are various criteria, and merely placing third at Nationals would not be sufficient on its own for anyone to qualify. Future potential and investing in the future are not criteria. Having said that, I can see a scenario where it would be appropriate to send Ilia rather than Jason, but we can't know what is correct under the rules until the competition is over. And, even then, there will be debate.

 

[carriecmu0503]

They Olympics are not a lifetime achievement award, but Nationals also is not an Olympic trials with the top three automatically going. The rules for selection make that clear. There are various criteria, and merely placing third at Nationals would not be sufficient on its own for anyone to qualify. Future potential and investing in the future are not criteria. Having said that, I can see a scenario where it would be appropriate to send Ilia rather than Jason, but we can't know what is correct under the rules until the competition is over. And, even then, there will be debate.

I am very well aware of this. If Iila Malinin places third at nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Brown. Therefore, I think Malinin would be the correct choice.

 

[bellezza_fiore]

Eric Sjoberg withdrew, now. Not sure there's a reason given?

His name is not even on the list anymore... Is it because he didn't even check in at Nationals?

 

[shuilee]

Vincent got a "q" on the 4sal, but 1 judge gave him +5 and 4 judges gave him +4.

Are judges allowed to ignore the tech caller? Is there any consequence for doing that? I didn't realize it's possible.

 

[Jarrett]

Interpretation of the Music

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Well deserved Jason!! Ilia omg he was so good as well. Top 6 were all outstanding.

 

[Trillian]

I am very well aware of this. If Iila Malinin places third at nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Brown. Therefore, I think Malinin would be the correct choice.

Why? Brown being currently ranked higher in the selection criteria isn’t a “lifetime achievement award,” it’s based very specifically on results from the past year. Why would one competition automatically negate the results from every other event? Not saying there’s no way for Ilia to make a convincing case for himself (I’m super impressed by his progress this year), but it doesn’t make sense to say nationals is the only result that should matter when USFS has been very clear that they’re looking at more than that.

 

[Jarrett]

Why? Brown being currently ranked higher in the selection criteria isn’t a “lifetime achievement award,” it’s based very specifically on results from the past year. Why would one competition automatically negate the results from every other event? Not saying there’s no way for Ilia to make a convincing case for himself (I’m super impressed by his progress this year), but it doesn’t make sense to say nationals is the only result that should matter when USFS has been very clear that they’re looking at more than that.

I think placement really has less to do but how they skate. If Ilia is 3rd with a little better than Jason skate I don't really think the result changes much and USFSA will probably send Jason but if Ilia skates lights out with multiple quads and Jason struggles and is fourth or fifth do you really think they would send him. I think the answer from most would be no. While I have no knowledge of this even being a possibility I wouldn't be surprised to see talk of Ilia skating for a different country like what was happening with Mirai back in the day.

 

[VGThuy]

Ilia can still make a convincing case for himself. Hell, maybe he’ll win nationals if the other men underperform. However, the reason he has this uphill battle is because Jason did manage to qualify for the GPF and scores well internationally. Nathan’s rep is unquestionable and despite Vincent’s inconsistency, we know he’s a legit medal contenders at the Olympics and Worlds when he’s on - and he also qualified for the GPF and won Skate America. So Ilia has his work cut out for him. That said, what he did in the SP was incredible. We’ll just have to see how the LP plays out.

 

[layman]

Where is Tomoki?????

 

[Rukia]

Where is Tomoki?????

Withdrawn, never even went to Nashville, no reason given

 

[Jarrett]

Where is Tomoki?????

Good question? What happened? Injury, covid??

 

[Trillian]

I think placement really has less to do but how they skate. If Ilia is 3rd with a little better than Jason skate I don't really think the result changes much and USFSA will probably send Jason but if Ilia skates lights out with multiple quads and Jason struggles and is fourth or fifth do you really think they would send him.

No, I’m sure Ilia would go in that situation. But if it’s closer than that, it doesn’t make sense to say that a higher placement should automatically put Ilia on the team. There might be an argument to be made based on the skating, but it shouldn’t just come down to one result if they both skate well.

 

[screech]

Vincent got a "q" on the 4sal, but 1 judge gave him +5 and 4 judges gave him +4.

Are judges allowed to ignore the tech caller? Is there any consequence for doing that? I didn't realize it's possible.

Honestly, I thought Nathan's 4lz was more on the q than Vincent's 4s. It also made me laugh that Tara and Johnny were talking about how Nathan's combo would be the highest scoring element in the competition since it's a 4lz/3t in the second half, but then Vincent's scored even higher as his first element.

I'm not sure what I'd do if Ilia comes 3rd and Jason 4th. Jason has 'proved himself' however Ilia would benefit from the experience and has the technical side. If the difference in scores is more than 3-4 points, I'd give it to Ilia, probably.

 

[Allisanna]

I hope all the top men skate fabulously tomorrow and USFS has a very difficult decision to make.

 

[Karen-W]

I'm not sure what I'd do if Ilia comes 3rd and Jason 4th. Jason has 'proved himself' however Ilia would benefit from the experience and has the technical side. If the difference in scores is more than 3-4 points, I'd give it to Ilia, probably.

Honestly, I think Tara's comments about Ilia give us all the insight we need into what will happen if Ilia remains ahead of Jason when the FS is done.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Why? Brown being currently ranked higher in the selection criteria isn’t a “lifetime achievement award,” it’s based very specifically on results from the past year. Why would one competition automatically negate the results from every other event? Not saying there’s no way for Ilia to make a convincing case for himself (I’m super impressed by his progress this year), but it doesn’t make sense to say nationals is the only result that should matter when USFS has been very clear that they’re looking at more than that.

If it doesn’t matter what anyone else does, and Jason is already guaranteed a spot on the team, why are we even bothering with the competition? Why not just send everybody home? What if Nathan or Vincent, god forbid, get knocked out of the Olympics due to the crud? Ilia Malinin could actually contend for a medal at the Olympics. Jason Brown cannot. Full stop.

 

[VGThuy]

If it doesn’t matter what anyone else does, and Jason is already guaranteed a spot on the team, why are we even bothering with the competition? Why not just send everybody home? What if Nathan or Vincent, god forbid, get knocked out of the Olympics due to the crud? Ilia Malinin could actually contend for a medal at the Olympics. Jason Brown cannot. Full stop.

If he skates well. He could replicate his Challenger event skate. I guess we kind of know Jason’s ceiling and floor. Like Vincent, Ilia may have a lower floor than Jason but he also potentially has a higher ceiling…much higher even in the LP.

 

[beckab81]

If it doesn’t matter what anyone else does, and Jason is already guaranteed a spot on the team, why are we even bothering with the competition? Why not just send everybody home? What if Nathan or Vincent, god forbid, get knocked out of the Olympics due to the crud? Ilia Malinin could actually contend for a medal at the Olympics. Jason Brown cannot. Full stop.

I don't see anyone saying that it's already decided - just that if they are close in the free, they think Jason should go.

As for your example about Nathan or Vincent being knocked out, Ilia would be 1st alternate, and would go in their place.

I get that you want Ilia to go. I personally want to see Jason's programs at the Olympics, because I think they are something truly special. That being said, If Ilia beats Jason by a big margin and goes, I'll fully support him.

 

[rhapsody]

I think placement really has less to do but how they skate. If Ilia is 3rd with a little better than Jason skate I don't really think the result changes much and USFSA will probably send Jason but if Ilia skates lights out with multiple quads and Jason struggles and is fourth or fifth do you really think they would send him. I think the answer from most would be no. While I have no knowledge of this even being a possibility I wouldn't be surprised to see talk of Ilia skating for a different country like what was happening with Mirai back in the day.

People seem to be forgetting Jason had a fantastic track record leading up to Pyeongchang, even qualifying for the final that season. He underperformed at Nationals and the person chosen in favor of him was Vincent who at the time I would consider a "flavour of the month or someone with great instagram content". Jason is clearly the favorite and I hope he does because that short is a masterpiece, but it's not a done deal. I believe Jason can do it though, he's really thrived in high pressure situations in the past.

 

[misskarne]

So we're back to this...people wanting the USFS to throw out the body of work and the criteria for one good skate at Nationals. Weren't we here four years ago? And eight years ago? And USFS showed us what they would do then.

Let's reverse this. What has Jason done to deserve not being picked? He has done everything asked of him by the criteria. He performed well at 2021 Worlds, he medalled at both Grand Prix events, he qualified for the GPF. So far, he is also performing well at Nationals. It's not like he's being demanded to pick after entirely melting down at Nationals.

If the USFS ignore their own selection criteria to not choose Jason, and instead choose a Junior who had one good performance at Nationals, it makes a mockery of the entire system. And what kind of message does it send? Sorry, don't bother working your tail off to meet the criteria if you're beyond a certain age, we'll pick a young kid whose only Senior international was a mess over you every time.

 

[carriecmu0503]

I don't see anyone saying that it's already decided - just that if they are close in the free, they think Jason should go.

As for your example about Nathan or Vincent being knocked out, Ilia would be 1st alternate, and would go in their place.

I get that you want Ilia to go. I personally want to see Jason's programs at the Olympics, because I think they are something truly special. That being said, If Ilia beats Jason by a big margin and goes, I'll fully support him.

You don't get it at all. Ilia would NOT go in Jason or Vincent's place if either of them are knocked out of the event after the draw for the SP takes place.

I don't have particular stock in Ilia Malinin as a skater. I do, however, have stock in USFS judging what actually takes place on the ice, and giving Nationals the weight it deserves. If Ilia places third at Nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Jason. The higher placement at Nationals should then give him the nod for the spot. Otherwise, it is all about who is USFS' favorite and not who is the best RIGHT NOW. This would not be just a one time fluke performance in which someone who has been amazing for years gets beat. I agreed, for example, with sending Ashley over Mirai in 2014.

 

[misskarne]

If Ilia places third at Nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Jason. The higher placement at Nationals should then give him the nod for the spot.

Jackie Wong's tweet indicates that actually, it would be Jason's international scores that would give him the nod. As it should.

This would not be just a one time fluke performance in which someone who has been amazing for years gets beat.

Except that's exactly what this would be!

I think Ilia is going to be amazing for the US men - in a year or two. He's already excellent now. I have no doubt he's their future leader. But this season he has not shown that he is better than Jason at the Senior level at any event - except just once, here, at the short program at Nationals. And that's not enough, nor should it be.

 

[beckab81]

You don't get it at all. Ilia would NOT go in Jason or Vincent's place if either of them are knocked out of the event after the draw for the SP takes place.

I don't have particular stock in Ilia Malinin as a skater. I do, however, have stock in USFS judging what actually takes place on the ice, and giving Nationals the weight it deserves. If Ilia places third at Nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Jason. The higher placement at Nationals should then give him the nod for the spot. Otherwise, it is all about who is USFS' favorite and not who is the best RIGHT NOW. This would not be just a one time fluke performance in which someone who has been amazing for years gets beat. I agreed, for example, with sending Ashley over Mirai in 2014.

That's a pretty extreme example/reason (especially since they will already have been in Beijing for a week + at that point). There is nothing in the criteria that says best national performance drives selection for athletes in the same group, I don't know exactly how they will choose between athletes in the same group. We can just disagree on this one.

 

[carriecmu0503]

That's a pretty extreme example/reason (especially since they will already have been in Beijing for a week + at that point). There is nothing in the criteria that says best national performance drives selection for athletes in the same group, I don't know exactly how they will choose between athletes in the same group. We can just disagree on this one.

In the current climate, the example is not extreme at all. US Nationals competitors who have been in Nashville for a week have had to withdraw from the competition today (3 more skaters withdrew from nationals today) due to testing positive. They will be tested daily in Beijing, and you never know who will test positive or when with the current variant. Beyond that, am I the only one to find this utter lack of transparency to be a problem? The athletes work far too hard and spend far too much time and money on training to be left off Olympic teams because they are not in favor or because they don't know what is expected of them. Why should they even bother to travel to nationals and pay all that money if they won't stand a chance because it is already decided? All I am saying is if someone like Malinin comes in third, he should get the chance to go. What is the point in sending someone who has a ceiling of 9th place when we have someone who could potentially place much higher, and can use the experience to build toward his future? I do not think anybody would argue that the experience of 2018 was not important for the development of Chen and Zhou, for example. I think the 2022 experience could be very important for someone like Malinin in building for 2026, and I hope USFS thinks about that if Malinin comes in third here.

 

[angi]

I don't have particular stock in Ilia Malinin as a skater. I do, however, have stock in USFS judging what actually takes place on the ice, and giving Nationals the weight it deserves. If Ilia places third at Nationals, he will be in the same priority group for selection as Jason. The higher placement at Nationals should then give him the nod for the spot. Otherwise, it is all about who is USFS' favorite and not who is the best RIGHT NOW. This would not be just a one time fluke performance in which someone who has been amazing for years gets beat. I agreed, for example, with sending Ashley over Mirai in 2014.

But why should nationals get high weight in the decision? It's only one competition that's also very generously judged (inflated GOE, ignoring various 'q' and UR, almost no edge calls, and so on). There's a good reason to take a skater BOW into account and if Jason skates a close to clean FS tomorrow (or at least not bomb it) his BOW as defined by the USFS criteria makes him worthy. Even if two skaters are in the same selection group there are defined ways to pick between them, and that's where BOW comes into play.