U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

[Carolla5501]

I agree... why is her coach allowing this..

BUT...HAVENT we seen this behavior with Karen before.. this is a problem with her..

wasnt last years headlines that she went through 12 pairs of boots? This years she going through programs instead.. and the coach allows it.

There is a deeper issue here with this pattern of changing and switching..... and it definitely aint being addressed....

I wonder if the coaches may be telling her this is a bad idea but other people on her team, like a parent who writes the checks and pays the bills, are saying this is what we want to do.


The coach only has a certain amount of influence there a lot other factors we haven't considered in this situation with Karen.


But since we are now just over a month away from nationals, I'm with a lot of you- she's not going to be on the team unless something dramatic happens

 

[Jammers]

The whole Ashley loves the underdog role is just nonsense and played out and if she does love having to come from behind then even if she makes the Olympic team she will be lucky to make the top 10 because their is way to much depth now to get away with a doing crappy SP. This isn't 2012 where she came from 8th place in the SP to finish 4th and almost won a medal now she will be buried.

 

[RD]

Wagner should know the drill by this point. It's why she was able to medal in Boston; she did NOT put herself in a hole after the SP. (Yes, she still was behind medal position by a point or so but nowadays that's close enough).

Wow...I don't ever remember the US ladies having THIS rough of a start to a season overall - and this includes the infamous 2009-2010 season where we literally had 5 contenders vying for 2 spots...

 

[UGG]

I am sure Ashley is not purposefully putting herself in a bad spot in the short program.I posted this in another thread, but she is 26 years old and at some point her skating is going to start to decline which is probably what is happening. She is closer to 30 than she is to 20 at this point. It is not her fault she is still a contender for the US Olympic team. Why does this anger people so much? Tara Lipinski's skating declined at 15 right after her OGM. She probably would not have even been competitive the following year. Michelle Kwan was done at 24. Sarah Hughes could never kept up her level of skating she did after winning the Olympics as we saw in the 2003 season where she finished last at the final event of the year at 17 years old. Ashley deserves a lot of credit. Flatt, Cizney, Zhang, Gold. Where are they? Nowhere amazing in the skating world today. Ashley has surpassed everyone from her era who was supposed to be the next Michelle Kwan. The sonograms need to step it up.

 

[Jammers]

Karen is becoming the new Denis Ten. Supremely talented skater who can be a trainwreck with all kinds of ridiculous issues but out of nowhere at the big events gets it together.

 

[mtnskater]

I gladly would have kept the Gracie that worked with Oleg and Scott Brown. That's when I fell in love with her skating. Sure Bradie can try other choreographers if she wants to, but I hope TPTB don't try to get her to switch coaches ala Gracie. Bradie's technique seems fine.

Bradie's technique is very good and is not the issue. Her artistry and choreography is. She could be so much better in that department. Brown seems to be the king of flinging and flailing arms. I disliked his choreography intensely on Gracie and again on Bradie.

 

[Frida80]

Bradie's technique is very good and is not the issue. Her artistry and choreography is. She could be so much better in that department. Brown seems to be the king of flinging and flailing arms. I disliked his choreography intensely on Gracie and again on Bradie.

This is why I’m positive Bradie will be pushed to Frank very soon. If she keeps up her consistency, USFS will strongly suggest Frank Carroll and she’ll get a packaging make over with Lori Nichols Choreography. Sigh...

I’d rather she stick with her coaches and simply go to a new choreographer. To let her find her own style that speaks to her rather than having other people decide for her. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that she doesn’t take the plunge like so many girls before her.

 

[RD]

I am sure Ashley is not purposefully putting herself in a bad spot in the short program.I posted this in another thread, but she is 26 years old and at some point her skating is going to start to decline which is probably what is happening. She is closer to 30 than she is to 20 at this point. It is not her fault she is still a contender for the US Olympic team. Why does this anger people so much? Tara Lipinski's skating declined at 15 right after her OGM. She probably would not have even been competitive the following year. Michelle Kwan was done at 24. Sarah Hughes could never kept up her level of skating she did after winning the Olympics as we saw in the 2003 season where she finished last at the final event of the year at 17 years old. Ashley deserves a lot of credit. Flatt, Cizney, Zhang, Gold. Where are they? Nowhere amazing in the skating world today. Ashley has surpassed everyone from her era who was supposed to be the next Michelle Kwan. The sonograms need to step it up.

But Wagner had this problem even when she was 20. This is not new for her. As far back as 2009 she was taking herself out of the running for medals after crappy SPs. Can't blame this one on her age.

Her overall skating ability may very well be on the decline after 2016, and/or other factors could be at play, such as motivation, or injury.

 

[Xela M]

Interestingly enough, Ashley won PCS by a whole point. But those jumps were really bad. I wonder whwat's up with her? She just seems not to have that spark this year. I know a few people here blame it on her "old age" or "peaking two years ago." I think it's something else - it seems like the fire's left her.

Heartbreak.

As someone who is going through it right now, I can totally understand how it can affect EVERYTHING.

 

[GullyGirl84]

In the USFS post-sp reaction video on youtube, Ashley mentions the loss of training time due to the ankle issue, and Karen makes it sound like everything was on the up and up in terms of her SA practices going well and training going well prior to the SP (I'm sure they are disappointed, but neither of them seem particularly surprised or upset? Ashley's combos seemed to be going better from the practice reports, but again, is she leaving out the spins in her run-throughs, or is she going full out? A lot of movement could happen with the scores in the long with the sp scores being close together, and Satoko just coming back from injury/Gabby recovering from a cold. The door should have been wide open for them in this field).

 

[Coco]

I wonder if the coaches may be telling her this is a bad idea but other people on her team, like a parent who writes the checks and pays the bills, are saying this is what we want to do.


The coach only has a certain amount of influence there a lot other factors we haven't considered in this situation with Karen.

Ding Ding Ding!!!

I don't think it was Tammy G's idea to have Karen write a book last year, for example.

Vincent's jumping issues can probably be chalked up to growth. While Karen is also growing, I think that her jumps have had issues for a while, unfortunately. Such a talented skater, I hope she gets it all sorted out.

 

[kwanatic]

Disappointing performances from Ashley and Karen but I can't say I'm surprised for either one.

Ashley looked amazingly fabulous (that dress is a stunner) and I think she did a good job of getting the crowd into the program...however, the jumps are where they've been for the past two seasons now: MIA. Last season on the GP she had seriously major rotation issues, worse than she's had all career long. This year it's the same thing. She's standing up but she's not rotating. It is what it is at this point. The jumps are failing her. The only thing she can do now is try to do her best and get on that Olympic team but I'd expect her to place 8th-10th if she goes.

Karen is more of the same as well. All of the indecision with the programs is a bit annoying. I thought her SP to Tango de Roxanne was absolutely fabulous and could have been a showstopper; and I actually liked her Carmen FS too. Changing the program isn't going to magically fix her ability to land a jump. Her team's scatterbrain approach to this season is worrisome and I think it's reflected in her skating. Karen is amazing but I don't think she's being managed very well.

I'm happy to see Bradie have a great showing so far. In all actuality there's nothing particularly standout-ish about her. She's quite generic in some respects, but the fact she can skate with ease and land her jumps makes her a superstar in this field of US women where you can't seem to buy a clean skate. I hope she has a solid FS. I almost don't want her to blow it out of the water b/c if she does the hype machine will come down on her in full force and she doesn't need that. I could definitely see her snagging a spot on that Olympic team a la Polina Edmunds in 2014 and if she delivers, I think she should go. I just hope the media don't freak her out and put too much pressure on her if she does well here.

It'll be interesting to see how this one ends. The scores are pretty close together so it's still anyone's game...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Ding Ding Ding!!!

I don't think it was Tammy G's idea to have Karen write a book last year, for example.

Vincent's jumping issues can probably be chalked up to growth. While Karen is also growing, I think that her jumps have had issues for a while, unfortunately. Such a talented skater, I hope she gets it all sorted out.

Apparently, Zhou has a bit of a tiger mom ruling the show. There was a video on YouTube of them arguing around the time he won junior worlds, but has since been taken down.

His heart - wrenching letter to himself following a disappointing competition at the ISU of France, seems to indicate he isn't allowed to be in charge of what he is doing at all.

 

[skateboy]

This is why I’m positive Bradie will be pushed to Frank very soon.

Hasn't Frank announced he will retire after this Olympics?

 

[VGThuy]

What’s the difference between tiger parents and your run of the mill skating parent?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What’s the difference between tiger parents and your run of the mill skating parent?

Marjorie Chin springs to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5W5EQqXBMU

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Hasn't Frank announced he will retire after this Olympics?

He's been saying that since the 1990s.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Disappointing performances from Ashley and Karen but I can't say I'm surprised for either one.

Ashley looked amazingly fabulous (that dress is a stunner) and I think she did a good job of getting the crowd into the program...however, the jumps are where they've been for the past two seasons now: MIA. Last season on the GP she had seriously major rotation issues, worse than she's had all career long. This year it's the same thing. She's standing up but she's not rotating. It is what it is at this point. The jumps are failing her. The only thing she can do now is try to do her best and get on that Olympic team but I'd expect her to place 8th-10th if she goes.

Karen is more of the same as well. All of the indecision with the programs is a bit annoying. I thought her SP to Tango de Roxanne was absolutely fabulous and could have been a showstopper; and I actually liked her Carmen FS too. Changing the program isn't going to magically fix her ability to land a jump. Her

I am sure Ashley is not purposefully putting herself in a bad spot in the short program.I posted this in another thread, but she is 26 years old and at some point her skating is going to start to decline which is probably what is happening. She is closer to 30 than she is to 20 at this point. It is not her fault she is still a contender for the US Olympic team. Why does this anger people so much? Tara Lipinski's skating declined at 15 right after her OGM. She probably would not have even been competitive the following year. Michelle Kwan was done at 24. Sarah Hughes could never kept up her level of skating she did after winning the Olympics as we saw in the 2003 season where she finished last at the final event of the year at 17 years old. Ashley deserves a lot of credit. Flatt, Cizney, Zhang, Gold. Where are they? Nowhere amazing in the skating world today. Ashley has surpassed everyone from her era who was supposed to be the next Michelle Kwan. The sonograms need to step it up.

Tara was injured. Totally different story

 

[Vagabond]

What’s the difference between tiger parents and your run of the mill skating parent?

Stripes.

 

[olympic]

Excuse the pessimism, but when US ladies were considered to be at its nadir late last decade, weren't Kimmie Meissner, Alissa Czisny and Rachael Flatt still at least able to medal on the GP circuit? That scares me in the present day.

 

[Wyliefan]

This is why I’m positive Bradie will be pushed to Frank very soon. If she keeps up her consistency, USFS will strongly suggest Frank Carroll and she’ll get a packaging make over with Lori Nichols Choreography. Sigh...

That approach completely failed to work for Gracie. You don't think they've learned anything from that?

 

[Coco]

That approach completely failed to work for Gracie. You don't think they've learned anything from that?

And Jenni Kirk, and Mirai (in the long run)...

I hope they let Bradie develop at her own pace. She can have the 'gaining experience' role of this team for a time. Hopefully she earns a spot on either the Olympic team, or Worlds or 4CCs.

 

[Willin]

Apparently, Zhou has a bit of a tiger mom ruling the show. There was a video on YouTube of them arguing around the time he won junior worlds, but has since been taken down.

I think Tiger mom is a bit of an understatement for his mom. There's a reason she drove him to LA all those years instead of practicing locally...

What’s the difference between tiger parents and your run of the mill skating parent?

Exhibit 1: Vincent's Mom (and his old wikipedia page before someone that wasn't his mom edited it). But, basically, from what I've seen, normal skating parents are intense but do not go to quite the extent of a tiger mom. I don't know how many of these apply to the famous tiger moms of skating (including Vincent's). That is, "skating parents" don't:
-Get on the ice or near the boards to yell at their kid's coaches (or otherwise insert themselves into the lesson)
-Switch coaches behind their current coach's back because they're angry at the current coach (and lie to the new coach so they can do so)
-Switch coaches as soon as any minor failure occurs, even if the coaching is otherwise working out
-Change things out like programs/costume/etc. behind a coach's back
-Correct the coach despite having no meaningful skating experience
-Claim a very competent coach doesn't know what they're talking about
-Build antagonism between the skater and coach because the skater doesn't want to switch coaches
-Homeschool the skater from a young age because a) normal school isn't good enough and b) the skater needs to be on the ice 20+ hours a week from a young age more than he/she needs to be socialized/have friends
-Try to coach the skater themselves for a time before realizing they need a coach, upon which time they harass the coach they're paying thinking they know better

Normal skating parents and tiger moms share a few things - forcing their kids to get on the ice when they don't want to, getting angry at coaches when the kid isn't progressing, etc., but tiger moms take it to a new level.

As an aside, I've actually seen Karen Chen's mom around the rink a few times (albeit when Karen was much younger). She seemed like a skating parent as opposed to a tiger mom. She acted just like any of the other rink moms she was friends with acted.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think Tiger mom is a bit of an understatement for his mom. There's a reason she drove him to LA all those years instead of practicing locally...


Exhibit 1: Vincent's Mom (and his old wikipedia page before someone that wasn't his mom edited it). But, basically, from what I've seen, normal skating parents are intense but do not go to quite the extent of a tiger mom. I don't know how many of these apply to the famous tiger moms of skating (including Vincent's) That is, they don't:
-Get on the ice or near the boards to yell at their kid's coaches (or otherwise insert themselves into the lesson)
-Switch coaches behind their current coach's back because they're angry at the current coach (and lie to the new coach so they can do so)
-Switch coaches as soon as any minor failure occurs, even if the coaching is otherwise working out
-Change things out like programs/costume/etc. behind a coach's back
-Correct the coach despite having no meaningful skating experience
-Claim a very competent coach doesn't know what they're talking about
-Build antagonism between the skater and coach because the skater doesn't want to switch coaches
-Homeschool the skater from a young age because a) normal school isn't good enough and b) the skater needs to be on the ice 20+ hours a week from a young age more than he/she needs to be socialized/have friends
-Try to coach the skater themselves for a time before realizing they need a coach, upon which time they harass the coach they're paying thinking they know better

Normal skating parents and tiger moms share a few things - forcing their kids to get on the ice when they don't want to, getting angry at coaches when the kid isn't progressing, etc., but tiger moms take it to a new level.

As an aside, I've actually seen Karen Chen's mom around the rink a few times (albeit when Karen was much younger). She seemed like a skating parent as opposed to a tiger mom. She acted just like any of the other rink moms she was friends with acted.

Poor Tammy. :-(

It sort of makes sense how U.S. skating is more dominated by kids from Asian backgrounds now.

With the technical level getting higher every year, slim builds and fierce parental ambition is what it takes to make it these days.

 

[Wyliefan]

Has Tammy EVER had a skater who wasn't a headcase?

Come to think of it, Tammy and the Headcases would make a good band name.

 

[mag]

Normal skating parents and tiger moms share a few things - forcing their kids to get on the ice when they don't want to, getting angry at coaches when the kid isn't progressing, etc., but tiger moms take it to a new level.

I would just like to say, in defense of many skating parents, that many, many, of us DO NOT do these things.

 

[Carolla5501]

This is why I’m positive Bradie will be pushed to Frank very soon. If she keeps up her consistency, USFS will strongly suggest Frank Carroll and she’ll get a packaging make over with Lori Nichols Choreography. Sigh...

I’d rather she stick with her coaches and simply go to a new choreographer. To let her find her own style that speaks to her rather than having other people decide for her. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that she doesn’t take the plunge like so many girls before her.

After Frank's public trashing of Gracie I hope every other female skaters parents tell USFSA to shove this idea somewhere the sun does not shine.

 

[Vagabond]

Tammy and the Headcases

Part of the band rehearsing

 

[Willin]

I would just like to say, in defense of many skating parents, that many, many, of us DO NOT do these things.

No, most don't. Mine certainly didn't - they were hardly in the rink! Even those who stay in the rink spend most of their time gossiping or talking with other parents. (Or rhinestoning dresses together)
I think the original post I was responding to was using "run of the mill skating parent" as a euphemism for the stage mom type skating parent and responded accordingly. Based on what I've seen, I think Karen's mom fits into this category as opposed to the tiger mom one. If she's anything like the parents I saw her hanging out with at the rink, she's certainly involved in decisions and a bit overbearing, but I don't think she'd go full tiger mom.

 

[Spun Silver]

I didn’t know about Vincent’s mom and I’m sorry to hear it. Skating is pressureful enough at the elite level without your mom being a second coach at home and the rink. Where can he let off steam? Maybe this is connected in some way with his recent emotional outburst on Instagram.