The major ISU rule changes now ...limits to quads and reduction of bonus for backloading jumps

[kwanfan1818]

A bit like the difference between the short and the free with regard to the impact of mistakes in the total number of elements.

 

[aftershocks]

With all this talk about whether or not it's appropriate to use the word "whore", should we talk about sex workers rights and calls for dignity and whether the word "whore" should be seen as bad? That's a pretty hot topic right now among feminists who advocate for sex workers. Obvs for adult men and women.

Not in this thread I doubt, unless it's somehow connected to the new scoring system changes, ISU's ongoing cluelessness, and/or the overweening prowess amongst top skaters.

OTBT though sounds apropos, or PI.

 

[aftershocks]

A bit like the difference between the short and the free with regard to the impact of mistakes in the total number of elements.

Hmmm, I still think the comparisons don't truly match up. Diving has a more well thought-out and better applied judging system. The judges are more skilled and seem to better know what to look for than what we often see in figure skating, especially in regard to component judging, which as we know is usually manipulative. Although form and creativity are important in diving, technique is everything, and attire is minimal. The water is not iced over either.

The length of a dive is rather fast compared to a figure skating program. The opportunity to improve and rise in the standings based on a number of dives in more than one round is also vastly different. As well, gymnastics has a number of apparatus, with regular team and all-around singles event portions, etc. Comparisons in judging can of course be made, but with understanding the great differences between the sports and the fact that ISU has never adequately went about tackling problems in a timely and responsible way.

 

[bardtoob]

I wonder if the Men will start doing more 3X-3Lp combinations . . . and then we'll start seeing a real explosion in injuries.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I am not totally supportive of the rule change taking away the backload bonus. Zagitova did do something incredibly difficult and should have been rewarded in TES.

Incredibly difficult in technicality - Yes!

Incredibly difficult with choreo and construction - Not so much!

So I can see why the rule change.

 

[MAXSwagg]

If a diver goes splat off the board, he or she might get a very small number of points, but the score is not zero. The diver completed all of the elements: take-off, air movement, and entry, however badly the entry was and how much the take-off and air movement contributed to the issues on the landing. If you land and fall in ski jumping, if you pass the fall line, there's no additional deduction.

There are plenty of arguments to be made about how much an element is worth after a fall in skating vs. other sports -- Greg Louganis lost scores of points on a dive where he hit his head on the board and didn't even complete the air part of his planned dive, and still won Olympic gold, so the huge % difference in points loss between skating and diving should be taken into consideration across a competition -- but not everything is basketball, where you get points only if the ball goes in the basket, unless the shot is disallowed.

I don’t know what you mean by splat. If a diver does not enter headfirst at some angle (lands on their stomach, etc.) they get ZERO points.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don’t know what you mean by splat. If a diver does not enter headfirst at some angle (lands on their stomach, etc.) they get ZERO points.

There are plenty of ways to splat headfirst, just as few elite skaters fall without landing on at least one foot first.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ re the bad dive entry scenario. As @MAXSwagg said, a bellyflop in diving gets hardly any points at all. But bellyflops are rare in competitive diving.

In diving, more often there are form breaks, and/or minute miscues and technical mistakes here and there on punch entries and degree of verticality or lean on entry which impacts scores a dive will receive. Once again, the diving judges are much more skilled and knowledgeable about how to judge diving events than are fs judges. But again, these two sports are quite different, and it could be argued of course that figure skating involves so many aspects that are much more complicated to judge. Still, the ISU has wasted years not even wanting to address the cumulative problems that challenge figure skating. So now as a direct result, the problems are numerous and completely out-of-hand. The sport will limp along dependent as usual upon the skill and joy of talented skaters in order to stay afloat.

 

[topaz]

I am not happy with the reduction to points for quads and possibly harsh deductions for the jumps. I think the new rules want to decrease the number of quads per programs. I understand we all want quality skaters/programs but the incentive to push skating athletic boundaries has been diminished. There is virtually no incentive to attempt harder quad jumps. It adds more confusion to the IJS scoring/judging.


ALso, I didn't see any changes to the scores, base value for spins. Which I would have liked to see.

I think the rule change helps skaters like Shoma Uno, Nathan Chen, Jason Brown, Kolyada,
Deniss Vasiļjevs, Aliev and Matteo Rizzo. I don't think this helps Boyang.

 

[MacMadame]

Because like it or not, not everybody likes the product of only skating to gain points with little-to-no considerations for performance and people have critiqued programs/elements in the past for just being for the judges.

You can critique without being offensive. Just say "Skater A's program maximizes points at the expense of choreography (or interpretation or whatever it is you think suffered)" That is a critique. "Skater B is a code-whore" is not a critique. It provides no useful information for debate.

 

[briancoogaert]

I don't think that kind of rule will imply no more quads in competition. Because if you want to win, you will have to gain more points than the others. And quads still have more points.
The only thing is about attempting quads for middle level skaters or too much quads for skaters like Zhou, Chen or Jin. Which might be a good thing... A LP with 6 quads is often without any interest except athleticism.
About backloading, I don't understand why ISU invents new rules when they can apply existing ones. There is a mark for choreography and balanced programs. No ?

 

[gkelly]

About backloading, I don't understand why ISU invents new rules when they can apply existing ones. There is a mark for choreography and balanced programs. No ?

The current Composition criteria don't say anything explicit about the temporal placement of elements.

But if it's that important to the ISU, the guidelines certainly could be worded to include that as a criterion.

And individual judges are free to consider it if it's important to them.

But that would encompass a lot more than just how many jumps fall after the halfway point -- e.g., how many jumps in a row or how many spins in a row is acceptable; how much time is spent on "transitions"/"in-betweens" and/or getting to a new location on the ice to execute the next element vs. grouping them closely together; timing of the difficult vs. easier elements; and of course how the sequence of elements fits with the musical structure, under the "Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)" criterion.

And the placement of the elements in space as well as in time, which would fit under the current "Pattern/ice coverage" criterion.

Still, there are enough different possible variables that it's impossible to establish rules or written guidelines saying what's considered good, acceptable, or bad. Judges will need to decide for themselves.

But if you build in an automatic reward such as a bonus, many skaters are going to do their best to take advantage of it. Some more choreographically successfully than others.

 

[DreamSkates]

Skaters attempt "content" in programs. Content must be scored. While I think falls should be penalized more, a fall on a jump should not be scored zero.

If a skater attempts seven triple jumps, and falls on all of them, should that skater be given the same jump content score as someone who went out and attempted no jumps at all?

That's the point - you have to be able to do the moves to get the credit. It is that way in any sport. Basketball players get 0 points for missing a bucket. They practice hours a day to be able to move around opponents and pass the ball and make baskets. Elite athletes must be able to do what they are able to do - if that is a quad, great. If not, then they don't get credit for what they cannot do.
Ever watch equestrian sports especially cross country and jumping? You will not win or have a high placement if you just try.

 

[DreamSkates]

If a diver goes splat off the board, he or she might get a very small number of points, but the score is not zero. The diver completed all of the elements: take-off, air movement, and entry, however badly the entry was and how much the take-off and air movement contributed to the issues on the landing. If you land and fall in ski jumping, if you pass the fall line, there's no additional deduction.

.

Sure, but they have many other moves they can get full credit for as a part of their total score. If you fall in ski jumping depending on where you fall, you might be disqualified.

 

[DreamSkates]

Not exactly an equal comparison though to falls in figure skating. Thanks so much to @Seerek ....

There's no comparison in either gymnastics or diving to the way falls are judged in figure skating. Different sports and different approaches. But in figure skating, the ISU has serious 'behind-the-curve' scoring and rules changes problems since forever, among other unaddressed challenges.

So let's hope changes can continue to move toward fairness in competition and judging, although I can't see how someone who is a national representative of their federation can also be 100% fair as a judge.

 

[briancoogaert]

The current Composition criteria don't say anything explicit about the temporal placement of elements.

But if it's that important to the ISU, the guidelines certainly could be worded to include that as a criterion.

And individual judges are free to consider it if it's important to them.

But that would encompass a lot more than just how many jumps fall after the halfway point -- e.g., how many jumps in a row or how many spins in a row is acceptable; how much time is spent on "transitions"/"in-betweens" and/or getting to a new location on the ice to execute the next element vs. grouping them closely together; timing of the difficult vs. easier elements; and of course how the sequence of elements fits with the musical structure, under the "Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)" criterion.

And the placement of the elements in space as well as in time, which would fit under the current "Pattern/ice coverage" criterion.

Still, there are enough different possible variables that it's impossible to establish rules or written guidelines saying what's considered good, acceptable, or bad. Judges will need to decide for themselves.

But if you build in an automatic reward such as a bonus, many skaters are going to do their best to take advantage of it. Some more choreographically successfully than others.

Thank you ! I agree with you.
I have a problem with creating too much rules, because it's not good for creation, and it's so much more difficult to create an appropriate choreo who fits the music.
Two examples : Surya Bonaly 1995 LP, I loved the last minute without any jump. Vanessa Gusmeroli 2000 LP, all those final spins didn't disturb me.
That's why I think backloading should be judged in the PCS (is it relevant with the music ? and so on...)

 

[Vagabond]

Absolutely. I *hate* those 3 or 4 consecutive jumping passes, right at the halfway point, that blatantly ignore the music. I wish the ISU somehow addressed that (not sure how they would, to be honest).

The ISU (and its Member Federations) could perhaps discipline judges for not applying the standards for PCS correctly.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

Choreography / Composition Definition: An intentional, developed, and/or original arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing.

Criteria:

Purpose: (Idea, concept, vision, mood) To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

Proportion (equal weight of all parts) Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

Unity – purposeful threading of all movements. A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition....

Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music) A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase. Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design....

Interpretation

Definition: The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice. To reward the skater who through movement creates a personal and creative translation of the music. As the tempo binds all notes in time, the ability to use the tempos and rhythms of the music in a variety of ways, along with the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of all the fundamentals of music: melody, rhythm, harmony, color, texture, and form creates a mastery of interpretation.

Criteria:

Effortless Movements in Time to the Music (Timing).... The ability to translate music through sureness of rhythm, tempo, effective movement, and effortless flow over the ice surface by: rhythmic continuity, awareness of all tempo/rhythm changes in a variety of ways.

Expression of the music’s style, character, and rhythm. Maintaining the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music: melody, harmony, rhythm, color, texture, and form. The total involvement of the body and being should express the intent of the music.

Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music. Finesse is the skater’s refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal, artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or the musician.

 

[aftershocks]

... milking brings up some nauseous feelings for some reason.

No nausea for me, only if its almond or coconut milk(ing)... Other than that, regular cow's milk ain't good for no one.

Code-maximizing

What about 'macho-coding'? Or 'coding-to-the-max!'

We'll see how the quads, codas, and new rules changes work out eh... the hard way. And it's truly not just about those "smarter and better athletes," whoever they are supposed to be. AFAIK, anyone who makes it near the top of this sport has to be a talented athlete, even if not necessarily 'smarter' than their rivals.