The major ISU rule changes now ...limits to quads and reduction of bonus for backloading jumps

[MacMadame]

When did I say cheating? Yes they are using the system effectively, people will say that in their own way but this nitpicking of words is ridiculous.

Words have meaning. Milking the system is a phrase used to disparage. It is not the functional equivalent of "being efficient."

Here's an example of what people use that phrase to mean:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=milking the system

If you look up "milking the system synonym" you get "gaming the system." Gaming the system is a form of cheating.

 

[MAXSwagg]

You can offer any explanation you want. The term whoring is derogatory. Period. There is no reason to apply the term to any skater. And, give me one example where a poster applied it to a male skater. It's offensive and there is no definition of whoring that is applicable to a skater's program lay out which is designed to score the maximum number of points in order to place as high as possible.

That is because in general men do not code whore. What man has backloaded to the extent of some of the women? To say people are using it in a way to denigrate female skaters is ridiculous and a big reach. But the term doesn't make sense, as many have pointed out. This is the system. Again, all of the problems people point out is because judges can't seem to judge the components well.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Plenty of men have taken advantage of the second-half bonus. They don't have to go to a 0-7 extreme to backload. There are many other ways to use the system to their advantage, and men have done so in other ways as well.

 

[rfisher]

My last comment. I find it reprehensible to call a 15 year old girl a whore, or anybody else for that matter, because they followed the rule book and had the ability to execute the moves. People can offer up all rhe explanations they want, but they are calling these skaters whores.

 

[bardtoob]

You can offer any explanation you want. The term whoring is derogatory. Period. There is no reason to apply the term to any skater. And, give me one example where a poster applied it to a male skater. It's offensive and there is no definition of whoring that is applicable to a skater's program lay out which is designed to score the maximum number of points in order to place as high as possible.

There is no reason to apply the term to any skater. And, give me one example where a poster applied it to a male skater.

Nicolai Morozov ... Both in general and with respects to the judging system

 

[UGG]

Okey dokey, as someone who is passionate about a “more athletic” sport (and I don’t necessarily agree with that term), I have this to say about attracting those fans.

Give it up. I have some small acquaintance with Eagles fans. They could care less if Nathan Chen lands 85 quads in 85 seconds. That will not bring them in. It’s figure skating, with 5’5” 120 pound guys who skate to music and wear costumes. And I don’t care if it’s an all black jumpsuit from Vera Wang, it’s from Vera Wang. They will not watch.

The ISU rules, to the extent they emphasize elements of the performance other than jumps (yes!!!!) may enhance what makes figure skating special, different and unique. And bring in folks who will appreciate figure skating.

For me, that’s a plus

I am an Eagles fan too!!

 

[Gil-Galad]

I understand the need to curve the quadmania a bit - but trying three measures (with the changed PCS-guidelines practically four) at once? Reducing the base value, increasing the penalty for falls/mistakes and limiting the number of repeated quads to 1? It seems a bit much and somewhat unscientific. How will you know what really worked?

 

[aftershocks]

I understand the need to curve the quadmania a bit - but trying three measures (with the changed PCS-guidelines practically four) at once? Reducing the base value, increasing the penalty for falls/mistakes and limiting the number of repeated quads to 1? It seems a bit much and somewhat unscientific. How will you know what really worked?

I think you mean 'curb' the quadmania... In any case, no one said the ISU and feds are all that smart. They obviously lack vision. Plenty of fans have said they are going about these new rules changes the wrong way, but that's nothing new regarding anything the ISU has done over the years. I've said for a long time that the ISU made a mistake in not addressing point system values during the 1990s when people without power in the sport were advocating for change. But of course the ISU waited until the 2010 Olympics post-Plush meltdown at which time they over-reacted by liberally over-valuing quads.

Yes quads deserved more points for a long time, but in the absence of the ISU having addressed the situation sooner, they simply needed to proceed with inclusive input, cautionary review and testing prior to implementing new point system values. Or at the least they could have used common sense instead of mindless over-valuling followed by enforcement with a hammer and broken nails.

I can recall being vilified on FSU by quad-lovers who disliked me pointing out that quad values were overly high. It only took Boyang Jin and Nathan Slaythan Chen to get the ISU's attention. As usual, the ISU is behind the curve. Now that's the best use of 'curve' in regard to ISU and quads!

ETA:
I agree that the way the ISU has gone about making changes is wonky as usual. And some of the changes don't seem necessary in that they seem counterproductive to solving existing problems, but very conducive to causing new ones. Overall, some of these changes just seem to be a case of too many cooks in the ISU kitchen (who don't actually know how to cook).

 

[aftershocks]

So we go back to front loading jumps?

Not necessarily. At least that's not the apparent aim of the rules adjustment.

Granted that the ISU's aim is rather unsteady.

 

[Lilia A]

I think there's a mistake. Zagitova wasn't code whoring. She was coda-ing (as in, doing the coda of Don Q in the second half hence why all the jumps were in the second half). Okay, really bad joke. Sorry about it. Moving on...

I'm all for rewarding difficulty, as long as such difficulty can be done safely. If a skater can do 6 quads in the second half without compromising his health, then what's the problem? And yes, I like well balanced programs, but there's no perfect formula when choreographing a program. If heavy front or backloading works for a particular program, then it works. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. I'll take 2 minutes of good content and actual choreography followed by 2 minutes of jumps over jump-arm wave-jump-arm wave-spin-more arm wave-etc any day. Just my opinion.

 

[bardtoob]

I think there's a mistake. Zagitova wasn't code whoring. She was coda-ing (as in, doing the coda of Don Q in the second half hence why all the jumps were in the second half). Okay, really bad joke. Sorry about it. Moving on...

Love it! Totally get it!

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think you mean 'curb' the quadmania... In any case, no one said the ISU and feds are all that smart. They obviously lack vision. Plenty of fans have said they are going about these new rules changes the wrong way, but that's nothing new regarding anything the ISU has done over the years. I've said for a long time that the ISU made a mistake in not addressing point system values during the 1990s when people without power in the sport were advocating for change. But of course the ISU waited until the 2010 Olympics post-Plush meltdown at which time they over-reacted by liberally over-valuing quads.

Yes quads deserved more points for a long time, but in the absence of the ISU having addressed the situation sooner, they simply needed to proceed with inclusive input, cautionary review and testing prior to implementing new point system values. Or at the least they could have used common sense instead of mindless over-valuling followed by enforcement with a hammer and broken nails.

I can recall being vilified on FSU by quad-lovers who disliked me pointing out that quad values were overly high. It only took Boyang Jin and Nathan Slaythan Chen to get the ISU's attention. As usual, the ISU is behind the curve. Now that's the best use of 'curve' in regard to ISU and quads!

ETA:
I agree that the way the ISU has gone about making changes is wonky as usual. And some of the changes don't seem necessary in that they seem counterproductive to solving existing problems, but very conducive to causing new ones. Overall, some of these changes just seem to be a case of too many cooks in the ISU kitchen (who don't actually know how to cook).

Just wait. There is going to be a barrage of communications coming out...

 

[antmanb]

So we'll just be seeing 4/3 jump splits in most if not all programmes now. The stronger jumpers will likely do all their combinations after the halfway point. The haters will criticise. The ubers will defend. The sane people won't care either way but the debates and arguments will all still be the same

 

[DreamSkates]

And the same people who whine about backloading will whine about front loading. The skaters and coaches will read the rules and the best skaters will do their best to maximize their points and will win. Same as always. Those who can will and those who can't won't.

Absolutely. And what sport or any other professional gets any kind of credit for "trying". No, you have to become the best you can be.

 

[DreamSkates]

So we'll just be seeing 4/3 jump splits in most if not all programmes now. The stronger jumpers will likely do all their combinations after the halfway point. The haters will criticise. The ubers will defend. The sane people won't care either way but the debates and arguments will all still be the same

Oh but the fun in the debates and arguments! Otherwise, we wouldn't have this board.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Absolutely. And what sport or any other professional gets any kind of credit for "trying". No, you have to become the best you can be.

If a diver goes splat off the board, he or she might get a very small number of points, but the score is not zero. The diver completed all of the elements: take-off, air movement, and entry, however badly the entry was and how much the take-off and air movement contributed to the issues on the landing. If you land and fall in ski jumping, if you pass the fall line, there's no additional deduction.

There are plenty of arguments to be made about how much an element is worth after a fall in skating vs. other sports -- Greg Louganis lost scores of points on a dive where he hit his head on the board and didn't even complete the air part of his planned dive, and still won Olympic gold, so the huge % difference in points loss between skating and diving should be taken into consideration across a competition -- but not everything is basketball, where you get points only if the ball goes in the basket, unless the shot is disallowed.

 

[caseyedwards]

They didn’t now directly ban quads. But now is certain no man will ever do a quad again. The quad eliminationists have won.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

True but this gives me "hope" that Ross Minor will come back just for one time and show us he can do a final quad, his way to show he was all ways a rebel who could of showed the system of skating they could try to hold him back but he would not stop fighting and do his Billy Joel and Queen program's in all they're "glory."

My wife and I will mourn the end of the quad era, the level of men's fitness in skating won't be the same and I do not know how I can support a sport that is not going to strive men to be as fit ripped etc. as they should be.

 

[VGThuy]

With all this talk about whether or not it's appropriate to use the word "whore", should we talk about sex workers rights and calls for dignity and whether the word "whore" should be seen as bad? That's a pretty hot topic right now among feminists who advocate for sex workers. Obvs for adult men and women.

 

[Spiralgraph]

With all this talk about whether or not it's appropriate to use the word "whore", should we talk about sex workers rights and calls for dignity and whether the word "whore" should be seen as bad? That's a pretty hot topic right now among feminists who advocate for sex workers. Obvs for adult men and women.

I'd say any serious discussion about sex workers' rights and whether "whore" should be seen as bad belongs in the Politically Incorrect subforum. Really. We skating fans can get into heated discussions about minor details like grammar issues "would of" versus the correct "would have"
and the proper spelling of skaters names, to ask us to remain calm cool and collected about "the oldest profession" is probably a lesson in futility.

I think I'd rather talk about quads. Or the Shib sibs.

 

[skateboy]

Absolutely. And what sport or any other professional gets any kind of credit for "trying". No, you have to become the best you can be.

Skaters attempt "content" in programs. Content must be scored. While I think falls should be penalized more, a fall on a jump should not be scored zero.

If a skater attempts seven triple jumps, and falls on all of them, should that skater be given the same jump content score as someone who went out and attempted no jumps at all?

 

[berthesghost]

Well, people are already losing it over the new crack down on “quadwhores” with men now apparently only doing quads in hiding like the Christians of old. And I’m pretty sure some on FSU have called the shib sibs “social media whores” in the past so it’s all relevant or are we suppose to call them “quadworkers” now?

 

[VGThuy]

How about “code-working”? Much better than milking because milking brings up some nauseous feelings for some reason. If people want it used as an insult, then they can call a skater’s program or strategy a “code-bore” or describe a skater as “code-boring”. If you want to describe your reaction to watching a program that is too obvious that it’s all about racking points with nothing else, you can say it gave you a “code sore”.

 

[Vash01]

How about “code-working”? Much better than milking because milking brings up some nauseous feelings for some reason. If people want it used as an insult, then they can call a skater’s program or strategy a “code-bore” or describe a skater as “code-boring”. If you want to describe your reaction to watching a program that is too obvious that it’s all about racking points with nothing else, you can say it gave you a “code sore”.

I find Code Whoring an extremely derogatory and unacceptable term. One would probably not use it in the presence of skaters, coaches, choreographers, etc. i am ok with Code-working

For those who are complaining about limits on athleticism - there were alwats limits in FS. Otherwise we would not have had the Zayak rule, on just 3 triples in an LP for ladies- just to use some examples. Some limits are necessary. Would you want to watch a 10 triples LP? The men were heading in the direction of 'only quads'. It was abominable when Chen won the free skate be ause of his quads over Hanyu's beautifully artistic and balanced LP. I usually like the boubdaries of athleticism pushed, but right now I am in favor of the changes, except for the -5 to plus 5 scale. I dont think it will accomplish more fairness.

 

[MacMadame]

How about “code-working”? Much better than milking because milking brings up some nauseous feelings for some reason. If people want it used as an insult, then they can call a skater’s program or strategy a “code-bore” or describe a skater as “code-boring”. If you want to describe your reaction to watching a program that is too obvious that it’s all about racking points with nothing else, you can say it gave you a “code sore”.

How about "maximizing points" or "maximizing the system" or "really understanding the rules"?

Why does it have to be a phrase with a negative connotation?

 

[clairecloutier]

Code-maximizing

 

[VGThuy]

How about "maximizing points" or "maximizing the system" or "really understanding the rules"?

Why does it have to be a phrase with a negative connotation?

Because like it or not, not everybody likes the product of only skating to gain points with little-to-no considerations for performance and people have critiqued programs/elements in the past for just being for the judges. Not everybody enjoys skating for the same reasons. And obviously the former term gets people in a tizzy, so I was just coming up with some alternatives. I mean, if people are going to be defensive about it and pretend that some people aren't bored with some strategies, then we should just not critique anybody or anything.

 

[Marco]

I am not totally supportive of the rule change taking away the backload bonus. Zagitova did do something incredibly difficult and should have been rewarded in TES.

What needs to be done instead is some sort of communication to let everyone know that when elements are imbalanced or when choreography does not go with the music because they need to fit in 4 jumps in a row, certain PCS categories may be affected and this should have been taken into consideration. (not just jumps - I also take issue with spins being done in a row - come on, there are only 3 of them! spread them out!)

I feel Zagitova did well generally in DQ keeping the program exciting and musical and I actually was looking forward to seeing how the next program would go - as I don't think this strategy easily works with much music / programs. Now we would never know if she is capable of making it work with another program.

 

[Seerek]

There are plenty of arguments to be made about how much an element is worth after a fall in skating vs. other sports -- Greg Louganis lost scores of points on a dive where he hit his head on the board and didn't even complete the air part of his planned dive, and still won Olympic gold

I know several others have used this example, but it must be noted that Louganis' failed dive in springboard in 1988 took place in the preliminary round (where he placed 3rd in that portion) and not the final (where he won gold, with the scores from the prelims dropped).

Now to support your argument above, the preliminary round in diving in Seoul had 11 dives, so a top flight diver like Louganis could easily still qualify for the final despite scoring essentially zero in 1 of the 11 dives.

In the World Championships/Olympics today, there are far less dives per round in prelims/semis/final (only 6), so there is far less of a buffer for divers to make significant errors.

 

[aftershocks]

If a diver goes splat off the board, he or she might get a very small number of points, but the score is not zero.

Not exactly an equal comparison though to falls in figure skating. Thanks so much to @Seerek for pointing out the differences. Maintaining form and not splatting on the entry in diving, or not breaking form on a dismount or not taking an extra step or falling on a landing in gymnastics is very important. To break form, fall or splat on entry is very costly to gymnasts and to divers respectively. But as Seerek has explained, the way competitive events are constructed in these other sports is completely different as well.

There's no comparison in either gymnastics or diving to the way falls are judged in figure skating. Different sports and different approaches. But in figure skating, the ISU has serious 'behind-the-curve' scoring and rules changes problems since forever, among other unaddressed challenges.