How will the new sequence rules affect planned jump content?

[VGThuy]

A lutz and lip aren't the same thing...

There's a reason why the lip is considered a base value deduction on the flip.

Because it's easier.

If you considered it a lutz, it would make it harder than a flip.

Should someone be advocating doing an incorrect flip and getting the BV of a Lutz for it?

You can figure out whether a skater was attempting a lutz or a flip most of the time, because there's usually a turn into a flip. A lutz is usually done off a backwards glide... So the TP isn't basing it on the planned program content...


If you remember a discussion from earlier in the year. I'd pointed out that Scott Hamilton used to do a VERY bad lip, back in 1984.

This was part of the discussion about how compulsory figures lead to good jump technique, and some 'compulsory figures gold medalist' attempted to tell me that I have 'no common sense' when I tried to ask which figure he was bad at that lead to this particular technique flaw (especially seeing he had won compulsory figures in 1984).

So when did 'some skaters' flips and lutzes' start to look 'interchangeable'? Earlier than 1984?

For me, when I was a younger and less experienced skating fan, I really noticed this issue with Sasha Cohen when I was having a hard time telling if she was going for a Lutz or a Flip because I usually could tell a Flutz from a Flip and a Lip from a Lutz where at least the attempt for a Lutz was noticeable. Plus, some flutzes were really funky like Sarah Hughes’ flutz.

As I was watching older skating videos, I also noticed Nicole Bobek’s flutz looked very similar to her flip entrance.

It has been a while since I’ve watched either of those skaters, so I may need to revisit them to see if I still find their Lutz and Flip attempts difficult to distinguish.

 

[sk8girl]

A lutz and lip aren't the same thing...

There's a reason why the lip is considered a base value deduction on the flip.

Because it's easier.

If you considered it a lutz, it would make it harder than a flip.

Should someone be advocating doing an incorrect flip and getting the BV of a Lutz for it?

Valid points, but I think the idea with calling the jump based on the actual take-off edge is that skaters could no longer get away with doing, say, two triple flips and two triple flutzes in a program (or two triple lips and two triple lutzes).

In both of those cases, only the first two jumps would count and the other two wouldn't, due to Zayak rules, if we were calling jumps based on the actual take-off edge. So yes, someone may get more points than they should for their lip, but overall they would lose points since they could only do two lip/lutzes rather than four.

 

[On My Own]

Valid points, but I think the idea with calling the jump based on the actual take-off edge is that skaters could no longer get away with doing, say, two triple flips and two triple flutzes in a program (or two triple lips and two triple lutzes).

OK.

Then I'd train a lip and a flutz.

Less effort than flip and lutz, but still getting the full base values.

 

[On My Own]

If the basis of someone's argument is that a flip and flutz are essentially the same jump, or that a lip and lutz are essentially the same jump, they're missing the point, and don't understand the mechanics. AND are proposing a very easy way to cheat the system, because someone can get by with putting little effort into learning the proper technique behind those jumps in the first place.

The system in place currently is exactly right, because it rates the jumps correctly as Lz>F>Lz(e)>F(e). And there's actual reason to be learning those jumps properly, assuming the calls are made correctly anyway.

About the Flip, what I do not like with the IJS continues to be the overemphasis on the inside edge, which many skaters are interpreting as deep inside edge via diagonal entries so as to avoid calls. This produces lower quality flips than shallow inside edge ones, both in terms of amplitude and air position (see Kaetlyn Osmond's axis on her Flip many times). Yet shallow inside edge flips are getting (!) calls, and the deep inside edge flips get huge GOE...

 

[tony]

If the basis of someone's argument is that a flip and flutz are practically the same jump, or that a lip and lutz are practically the same jump, they're missing the point, and don't understand the mechanics. AND are proposing a very easy way to cheat the system, because someone can get on by putting in as little effort into learning the proper technique behind those jumps in the first place.

They are already putting little effort into learning the correct jump in their foundational days, and they don't want to spend a long time correcting it. Joannie Rochette (famously, I guess since it's so rare) spent the 2003 season and part of the 2004 season really putting the effort in to learn a Lutz on the outside edge, and she was doubling or falling on a lot of attempts.

The system in place currently is exactly right, because it rates the jumps correctly as Lz>F>Lz(e)>F(e).

It's not right, IMO. Skaters who have never done a real Lutz or flip in their lives and are just filling up the boxes by knowing they will likely get away with their flutz or lip is just wrong. Look at Kaori Sakamoto. Never been close to a real Lutz yet panels constantly turn the other way and judges give her +2 and +3 while they are at it.

Like I wrote earlier, although it's never going to happen, the jump should be called on what the edge is at takeoff.

Valentina Marchei had one of the least-hidden attempts at differentiating the jumps:

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[gkelly]

Here's a fun account to follow: https://www.instagram.com/the_real_triple_lutz/

Includes a slo-mo clip of Jozef Sabovčík's double walley : https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyRHrs_L6pY/

Thanks

I just wish the clip started a second earlier, or from another angle, so we could really see the BI takeoff edge

Valid points, but I think the idea with calling the jump based on the actual take-off edge is that skaters could no longer get away with doing, say, two triple flips and two triple flutzes in a program (or two triple lips and two triple lutzes).

In both of those cases, only the first two jumps would count and the other two wouldn't, due to Zayak rules, if we were calling jumps based on the actual take-off edge. So yes, someone may get more points than they should for their lip, but overall they would lose points since they could only do two lip/lutzes rather than four.

But that would also penalize skaters who can correctly differentiate between the two jumps, only allowing them to do two total as well.

 

[sk8girl]

But that would also penalize skaters who can correctly differentiate between the two jumps, only allowing them to do two total as well.

No, if the skater can differentiate between the two jumps correctly, they are fine and could still get credit for two flips and two lutzes. This would only penalize skaters who don't distinguish and always do either inside or outside edge take-offs.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Thanks

I just wish the clip started a second earlier, or from another angle, so we could really see the BI takeoff edge


But that would also penalize skaters who can correctly differentiate between the two jumps, only allowing them to do two total as well.

No, they're not saying make them the same jump like the toe loop and the toe wally. They're saying call the actual edge. If you do four jumps with an inside edge, that's four flips and two don't count. If you do two with an inside edge and two with an outside edge, that's two lutzes and two flips, all count.

The problem I definitely see is the one that @tony cited earlier. Inconsistent calling would really screw skaters. If callers magically can't see the wrong edge for some skaters now and it means they get a few extra points, it'll be a lot worse if magically being unable to see the wrong edge for some skaters results in those skaters getting credit for jumps they don't have.

 

[VGThuy]

If the basis of someone's argument is that a flip and flutz are essentially the same jump, or that a lip and lutz are essentially the same jump, they're missing the point, and don't understand the mechanics. AND are proposing a very easy way to cheat the system, because someone can get by with putting little effort into learning the proper technique behind those jumps in the first place.

The system in place currently is exactly right, because it rates the jumps correctly as Lz>F>Lz(e)>F(e). And there's actual reason to be learning those jumps properly, assuming the calls are made correctly anyway.

About the Flip, what I do not like with the IJS continues to be the overemphasis on the inside edge, which many skaters are interpreting as deep inside edge via diagonal entries so as to avoid calls. This produces lower quality flips than shallow inside edge ones, both in terms of amplitude and air position (see Kaetlyn Osmond's axis on her Flip many times). Yet shallow inside edge flips are getting (!) calls, and the deep inside edge flips get huge GOE...

That’s a good point. It seems like the days of Frank Carrol and other coaches teaching that straight line technique for Flips and Toe-Loops is dying, even though it has been touted as excellent jumping technique.

Do you think coaching techniques could evolve to where we can have triple flips taking off a deep curve from the inside edge be as high or at least higher quality than what we’re seeing now? Maybe we’re evolving to where flips are supposed to be as curvy as Salchows since skating has now evolved to where it is emphasizing skating on deep edges and circular patterns compared to before.

Isn’t it kind of like how skating looked pre-triples era? I may be remembering wrong, but I remember watching classic era skating videos (like pre-1977), and noticing just how circular, spirally, and edgy their skating throughout the entire program seemed to be.

 

[On My Own]

Do you think coaching techniques could evolve to where we can have triple flips taking off a deep curve from the inside edge be as high or at least higher quality than what we’re seeing now?

Maybe? Equipment and coaching methods are constantly evolving and talented skaters always exist. Kaori's deep inside edge flip is nice. On an average? IDK.

Personally, I think these jumps are missing the point because they inherently come with a lot of pre-rotation though. Minimum pre-rotation should be a goal for the flip jump. I'd argue the straighter entry and the shallower edge helped this. So if it becomes more like a Salchow, then it's not a Flip. JMO anyway.

 

[VGThuy]

Maybe? Equipment and coaching methods are constantly evolving and talented skaters always exist. Kaori's deep inside edge flip is nice. On an average? IDK.

Personally, I think these jumps are missing the point because they inherently come with a lot of pre-rotation though. Minimum pre-rotation should be a goal for the flip jump. I'd argue the straighter entry and the shallower edge helped this. So if it becomes more like a Salchow, then it's not a Flip. JMO anyway.

This kind of raises the question, are all flip jumps that are coming from a straight entrance (or straighter one) being called with the (!)? Are there some skaters who have the traditional entrance but have a deep enough inside edge to not get their flip jumps called?

Would Yuna Kim's Triple Flip here be called today?

If it would, do you think the rules for edge calls for flips should be less stringent than they would be for the Lutz in that so long as the flip isn't on the outside edge at take off, then it should be called a flip?

 

[On My Own]

This kind of raises the question, are all flip jumps that are coming from a straight entrance (or straighter one) being called with the (!)? Are there some skaters who have the traditional entrance but have a deep enough inside edge to not get their flip jumps called?

Fair question, and I might have to walk back my comment, because I certainly don't remember everyone and how everyone out there jumps. Recently, Cha Jun Hwan has been getting them, even though I genuinely don't see a problem with his flip either (ETA: in terms of edge, he pre-rotates quite a bit), and I can only think it must be because of his shallower edge when he picks in. I think Yan Han did a straighter entry into his 3F when he came back to skating, and it was called (!) as well.

Kim used to get them too sometimes. And looking at that vid I'm 100% sure it'd be called (e) currently, not (!) lol.

If it would, do you think the rules for edge calls for flips should be less stringent than they would be for the Lutz in that so long as the flip isn't on the outside edge at take off, then it should be called a flip?

Now on the topic of Lutz... Cha doesn't get a (!) call on his Lutz, when he probably should. Nor does Brown, when he definitely should. Nor does Kagiyama... So IMO and off the top of my head, it's currently inverted from how it should be.

I just think shallow edge is fine for a flip. Whereas, with the earlier discussion on counter-rotation, IDK how it's going to be achieved without a crystal clear outside edge on take off when true lutzes are concerned.

I also think somewhat more nuance on lutz calls should exist I guess? If a skater was on a deep outside edge before gradually changing to a shallow or moderate inside change by the time they pick in, I would say this has more counter-rotation than a shallow outside edge that's maintained through take off. I'd call the first an (!) instead of a full (e) I guess.

(ETA2: I've brought some of this up before btw lol https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/toe-walley-vs-toe-loop-walleys.110687/#post-6428244)

And a Lutz is one more jump I'm not sure how you'd approximate with excessive pre-rotation. Pre-rotaters inevitably have a flawed edge, unless they're doing that ankle-breaking crap like Trusova or Aliev or Plushenko were (or Siao Him Fa is currently). And therefore there won't be an outside edge at take-off...