How will the new sequence rules affect planned jump content?

[Sylvia]

GSD thread for reference:

2022/23 ISU Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels of Difficulty, and GOE Guidelines

ISU Communication 2474 - Single and Pair Skating Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for marking Grade of Execution for season 2022/23 (4 May 2022; 11 pages): https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28330-isu-communication-2474/file ISU Communication 2475 - Single &...

www.fsuniverse.net

ISU Communication 2475 - Single & Pair Skating - Scale of Values Season 2022/23 (4 May 2022; 11 pages): https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28337-isu-communication-2475/file

 

[gkelly]

For all jumps. This would eliminate any unintentional effects a multiplier for combos might cause. But on the other hand, I'd hate to see +3F or +3S done in +Eu combos to get "third jump" bonuses because of this, although this needs to be taken care of in the case of multipliers as well. So for me, I'd make +Eu combos simple two-jump combos.

Just don't add any bonus for salchows and flips connected by Eulers. Just add the base values of the first and last jump, plus the base value of the Euler.

@VGThuy If we're talking about multipliers, IMO, we cannot give the same bonus to doubles and triples, and we also need to see what the preceding jump is. So 1.1 for +double and 1.3 for +triple, and then no bonus for double as the preceding jump, but 1.1 for a triple as the preceding jump is closer to what I'd pick. Even then, I'd probably bump up the bonus for +loops, +flips, and +lutzes a bit more compared to +toe and +salchows.

Well, if lutz is the last jump in a combo, it's going to be performed in the opposite direction of the previous jump. (Unless edge changes to change takeoff rotation are suddenly allowed.) The whole point of putting a lutz at the end of a combo should be to showcase a strong outside edge on the previous landing and the change of direction on the lutz takeoff.

If that is required, then the bonus for a lutz at the end of a combination should be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any bonus for a flip, which rotates in the same direction as the previous landing.

Would that be best achieved by adding a bonus for combos including jumps that rotate in both directions? Or just by building in a large enough bonus for lutzes as second jumps?

My guess is that the most popular such combinations would be 3T+2Lz or 2T+3Lz, with the double in the skater's "bad" direction and the triple in their preferred direction. What kind of bonus would make such combos worthwhile but not too overpowered?

 

[VGThuy]

Opposite direction combos would be incredible to see.

 

[On My Own]

Would that be best achieved by adding a bonus for combos including jumps that rotate in both directions? Or just by building in a large enough bonus for lutzes as second jumps?

In my scheme, I would build this bonus already into the 3Lutz as second/third jump value, so we wouldn't have to deal with this question. Yes, I would make it significantly higher than a Flip as the second jump. That being said, thinking up base values and multipliers both require hard-work and rigour, since there are a lot of considerations, and we can end up with poorly thought-out values for combinations.

My guess is that the most popular such combinations would be 3T+2Lz or 2T+3Lz, with the double in the skater's "bad" direction and the triple in their preferred direction. What kind of bonus would make such combos worthwhile but not too overpowered?

The +Lutz example was just an example, but I think it's mostly a recreational jump, as you might see a 2+1Lz, or maybe a 2+2Lz from a very skilled skater. If a high level skater trains it, I still wouldn't expect a +3Lutz, but a 3T+2Lz might indeed be viable (or a 2A+2Lz maybe).

ETA: Oh, one thing that COULD be done for a +3Lutz is to train a 2A in the opposite direction, that IIRC both Stephane Lambiel and Rohene Ward have done. So do a CW 2A taking off the RFO and landing on the LBO, and then do a CCW 3Lz direction picking with your right toe. It would be easier to learn a 2A in the opposite direction than a 3Lz.

So I guess I have to think about bonuses in opposite direction jumps overall somehow. This bonus barely exists for spins, as well, just one bullet point in levels.

 

[Marco]

I echo the calls for the ISU to consider rewards for jump versatility / penalty for lack thereof in a singles free skate; as well as multipliers for jump combos.

Separately, I miss it when Ashley Wagner would do all these 2axel sequences back in 2010-4 because she couldn't rotate 3/3s but would normally be able to land flips and loops with flow and control. She didn't get the same points as others. Same for Tuk who had had to combine the lutz with axel and got hit with a discount because her other combos were already 3axel2toe and 2axel3toe2toe - now she wouldn't have to be disadvantaged.

 

[Coco]

We may continue to see 2a3t this season if only because some skaters no longer train 3t as a solo jump or the first jump in a combination. It may take them a while to adjust.

 

[antmanb]

We may continue to see 2a3t this season if only because some skaters no longer train 3t as a solo jump or the first jump in a combination. It may take them a while to adjust.

I haven't observed elite skaters for a while but unless things have changed drastically in the last 4 years i'm pretty certain every elite skater warms up every single jump solo in training before moving on to combinations. I'd be really surprised if any senior skater only ever does triple toes as the back half of a combination in their training.

 

[slicekw]

Opposite direction combos would be incredible to see.

Slutskaya always got + on her difficulty in the 6.0 era because she did the spin combo in both directions. Jumping in both directions would be cool and difficult.

 

[On My Own]

Slutskaya did opposite direction spins? I remember the Biellmann on both feet, but not this.

 

[Maximillian]

Gusmeroli did camel spins on both feet. I know this because I'm old.

 

[slicekw]

Slutskaya did opposite direction spins? I remember the Biellmann on both feet, but not this.

yeah, that's what I remembered. But I just looked, and you're right. she switched feet, but kept going in the same direction. I honestly thought she went in the opposite direction on the other foot.

 

[VGThuy]

Michelle Kwan did opposite directions forward camels. She first did it in her 1997-1998 Lyra Angelica LP, did it one time in a catch-foot variation for her 1998 World Pro performance of her Lamente d-‘Ariane LP, and then brought it back for her 2000-2001 second half of the season version of her Swan of the Black Swan LP. For Lyra, she did it right after her regular-direction layback and right before her regular direction forward sit to Y-spin. For SOTBS, she did it leading into her regular-direction layback spin. I liked how she did it at 2001 Worlds but the spin itself probably looked it’s best at 1998 World Pros in that catchfoot variation.

I remember the Eurosport guys calling it “Vanessa Gusmeroli spins” during her 2001 Worlds performance probably because:

Gusmeroli did camel spins on both feet. I know this because I'm old.

 

[overedge]

Agree re giving points for opposite direction jumps. Those are very difficult and IMO much more interesting in a program than a bazillion different types of quad.

 

[Coco]

Surprised it is not a bullet point for GOE.

 

[VGThuy]

Surprised it is not a bullet point for GOE.

Maybe the ISU doesn't want to encourage it...yet. For whatever reason.

Back to the topic of adding multipliers for combos, because I was bored, I went through different measuring systems, and found that I was going crazy adding anything more than 30% to any part of any combo because that would make the COP too heavily in favor of combos. Using 1.5 or anything above that would create a situation where skaters would just try to repeat triple toe loops and triple loops as the second (or third part of combos because, then, a triple toe would be worth more than a solo triple Lutz and close to a solo triple axel in BV!)

So I came up with this "still-early" idea just for fun aka not meant to be taken seriously.

My idea would be that:

• 2-jump combos containing all jumps comprising over one rotation* will be factored by 1.1 for the first jump and 1.2 by the second jump.
• 3-jump combos with an Euler** or a single rotation jump will be considered a three-jump-pass but scored like two-jump combos with multipliers of 1.1 for the first jump and 1.2 for the second jump comprising more than one rotation.
• 3-jump combos containing all jumps with over one rotation will be factored by 1.1 for the first jump, 1.2 for the second jump, and 1.3 for the third jump.
• 2-jump or 3-jump SEQs*** will just be the sum total of the base value of all jumps in the sequence with no multipliers.
• 3-jump SEQ/Combos+ - the two jumps (both comprising over one rotation) in a combination will be factored by 1.1 for the first jump and 1.2 for the second, even if those jumps are the second and third jump of SEQ/COMBO^.

*jumps with more than one rotation include single axels.
**Eulers must be a true hop into the jump. Anything less than a fully-rotated loop will be considered a step or turn and thus render the pass a SEQ.
***SEQs can only have up to one step or turn in-between each jump.
+ e.g. [3Toe + 3Toe] + 2A SEQ
^ e.g. 2Lz + [2A + 3T] SEQ

Here is how it works out:

1st Jump Multiplier of 1.1
1A = 1.21
2T/2S= 1.43
2L = 1.87
2F = 1.98
2Lz = 2.31
2A = 3.63
3T = 4.62
3S = 4.73
3L = 5.39
3F = 5.83
3Lz = 6.49
3A = 8.80

2nd Jump Multiplier of 1.2
1A = 1.32
2Toe/2Sal = 1.56
2Loop = 2.04
2Flip = 2.16
2Lz = 2.52
2A = 3.96
3Toe = 5.04
3Sal = 5.16
3Loop = 5.88
3Flip = 6.36
3Lutz = 7.08
3A = 9.60


3rd Multiplier of 1.3
1A = 1.43
2T/2S= 1.69
2L = 2.21
2F = 2.34
2Lz = 2.73
2A = 4.29
3T = 5.46
3S = 5.59
3L = 6.37
3F = 6.89
3Lz = 7.67
3A = 10.00

I honestly don't see a situation where an axel can ever serve as anything but the first jump of a combo or how a lutz can ever be the third jump in a combo (salchow/flip will only happen if the second-part of the 3-jump combo is a double landed on the opposite foot), but I put it in there just in case.

Here are some examples of what some different combos, sequences, or combo/sequences are worth:

3Toe + 2Toe = 6.18
1A + 3Toe = 6.25
3Sal + 2Toe = 6.29
1A + 3Sal = 6.37
2Toe/Sal + 3Toe = 6.47
2A + 2A SEQ = 6.60
3Toe + 2Loop = 6.66
3Sal + 2Loop = 6.77
2Loop + 3Toe = 6.91
2Flip + 3Toe = 7.02
1A + 3Loop = 7.09
2Toe/Sal + 3Loop = 7.31
2Lutz + 3Toe = 7.35
3Flip + 2Toe = 7.39
3Loop + 2Loop = 7.43
3Toe + 2A SEQ = 7.50
1A + 3Flip = 7.57
2Loop + 3Loop = 7.75
2Flip + 3Loop = 7.86
3Flip + 2Loop = 7.87
3Lutz + 2Toe = 8.05
2Lutz + 3Loop = 8.19
3Lutz + 2Loop 8.53
2A + 3Toe = 8.67
3Lutz + 2A SEQ = 9.20
2A + 3Loop = 9.51
3Flip + 2T + 2L = 9.60
3Toe + 3Toe = 9.66
3Sal + 3Toe = 9.77
3Toe + E + 3Sal = 9.78
3Lz + 2T + 2L = 10.26
2A + 3Toe + 2Toe = 10.23
3A + 2T = 10.36
3Loop + 3Toe = 10.43
3Toe + 3Loop = 10.50
3Sal + 3Loop = 10.61
3A + 2L = 10.84
3Flip + 3Toe = 10.87
2A + 3Toe + 2L = 10.88
3Toe + E + 3Flip = 10.98
3Loop + 3Loop = 11.27
3A + 2A SEQ = 11.30
3Lutz + 3Toe = 11.53
3Flip + 3Loop = 11.71
1A + 3S + 3T = 11.80
3A + 2T + 2T = 11.92
[2A + 3T] + 2A SEQ = 11.97
3Lutz + 3Loop = 12.37
3Lz + 2A + 2A SEQ = 12.5
3A + 2T + 2L = 12.57
[3T + 3T] + 2A SEQ = 12.96
3Lz + 3Toe + 2Toe = 13.22
3A + 3Toe = 13.84
2A + 3Toe + 3Toe = 14.13
3Lz + [2A + 3T] SEQ = 14.57
3A + 2A + 2A SEQ = 14.60
3A + 3Loop = 14.68
2A + 3Toe + 3L = 15.04
2A + 3L + 3L = 15.88
3A + 3T + 2T = 15.53
3A + 3A SEQ = 16.00
3Lz + 3T + 3T = 16.99
3A + 3T + 3T = 19.30

You may wonder why I would give any multiplier to the first jump of a 2/2, 3/2, or 3/3, etc. combination. I did it because I started to see triple toe loops and triple loops having way more value than a triple flip or lutz and I wanted to encourage "harder" combinations like a 3Lutz/3Toe over trying to get the 3Toe/3Loop into the latter part of a combo through easier combos.

To see something really crazy that would totally overvalue combinations and undervalue solo jumps, this is how this would all look with factors of 1.3/1.5/1.7 (imagine if a 3/2/3 would result in the third jump...say a triple toe loop being only 0.86 less than the value of a triple axel!)

1st Jump Multiplier of 1.3
1A = 1.43
2T/2S= 1.69
2L = 2.21
2F = 2.34
2Lz = 2.73
2A = 4.29
3T = 5.46
3S = 5.59
3L = 6.37
3F = 6.89
3Lz = 7.67
3A = 10.40

2nd Jump Multiplier of 1.5
1A = 1.65
2Toe/2Sal = 1.95
2Loop = 2.55
2Flip = 2.7
2Lz = 3.15
2A = 4.95
3Toe = 6.30
3Sal = 6.45
3Loop = 7.35
3Flip = 7.95
3Lutz = 8.85
3A = 12.00

3rd Jump Multiplier of 1.7
1A = 1.87
2T/2S= 2.21
2L = 2.89
2F = 3.06
2Lz = 3.57
2A = 5.61
3T = 7.14
3S = 7.31
3L = 8.33
3F = 9.01
3Lz = 10.03
3A = 13.60

---

2A + 2A SEQ = 6.60
3Toe + 2Toe = 7.15
3Sal + 2Toe = 7.54
1A + 3Sal = 7.88
2Toe/Sal + 3Toe = 7.99
3Toe + 2Loop = 8.01
3Sal + 2Loop = 8.14
2Loop + 3Toe = 8.51
3Flip + 2Toe = 8.84
3Loop + 2Loop = 8.92
2Flip + 3Toe = 8.64
2Lutz + 3Toe = 9.03
2Toe/Sal + 3Loop = 9.04
3Lutz + 2A SEQ = 9.2
1A + 3Flip = 9.38
3Flip + 2Loop = 9.44
2Loop + 3Loop = 9.56
3Lutz + 2Toe = 9.62
2Flip + 3Loop = 9.69
2Lutz + 3Loop = 10.08
3Lutz + 2Loop 10.22
2A + 3Toe = 10.59
3A + 2A SEQ = 11.30
3Flip + 2T + 2L = 11.73
3Toe + 3Toe = 11.76
3Sal + 3Toe = 11.89
3Toe + E + 3Sal = 11.91
2A + 3Loop = 12.30
3A + 2T = 12.35
3Lz + 2A + 2A SEQ = 12.5
3Lz + 2T + 2L = 12.51
3Loop + 3Toe = 12.67
2A + 3Toe + 2Toe = 12.80
3Toe + 3Loop = 12.81
3Sal + 3Loop = 12.94
3A + 2L = 12.95
3Flip + 3Toe = 13.19
3Toe + E + 3Flip = 13.41
2A + 3Toe + 2L = 13.48
3Loop + 3Loop = 13.72
[2A + 3T] + 2A SEQ = 13.89
3Lutz + 3Toe = 13.97
3Flip + 3Loop = 14.24
3A + 2T + 2T = 14.56
3A + 2A + 2A SEQ = 14.60
3Lutz + 3Loop = 15.02
1A + 3S + 3T = 15.02
[3T + 3T] + 2A SEQ = 15.06
3A + 2T + 2L = 15.24
3A + 3A SEQ = 16.00
3A + 3Toe = 16.07
2A + 3Toe + 3Toe = 17.73
3A + 3Loop = 17.75
2A + 3Toe + 3L = 18.92
2A + 3L + 3L = 19.97

You all should really come up with your own formulas and such to see what you can come up with that would better reflect how you think the ISU can more properly reward combos. I'd love the scoring system encourage combos like 3/2/3s or even 3/3/3s, but then...maybe not as they may cause much more injuries to skaters.

 

[CantALoop]

I predict that the Russians (if/when they come back) will find a way to make these combinations as fugly as possible with weird janky moves between the jumps and still manage to get +5 GOEs for it. (e.g., hideous step-over Eulers a la Pogorilaya or the hunched over power-pulls all the Russian teens do between 4-3/3-3 combos)

 

[Ananas Astra]

I'd just stop speculating and enjoy the rule in action next season.
As a former skater who loved to put a single Axel after a single Lutz into a program, I very much appreciate this rule .

 

[screech]

Jeff Buttle did opposite direction spins, and even did variations on his 'bad' foot (outside edge, catch foot). While not quite as good as his regular direction, his opposite direction spin was still better than a lot of skaters' normal spins.

IIRC back then, wasn't it a requirement that to get 'credit' for opposite direction spins, the opposite direction and regular direction had to be right after one another? Or maybe I'm making that up. Sounds like something the ISU would come up with.

 

[VGThuy]

Jeff Buttle did opposite direction spins, and even did variations on his 'bad' foot (outside edge, catch foot). While not quite as good as his regular direction, his opposite direction spin was still better than a lot of skaters' normal spins.

IIRC back then, wasn't it a requirement that to get 'credit' for opposite direction spins, the opposite direction and regular direction had to be right after one another? Or maybe I'm making that up. Sounds like something the ISU would come up with.

I definitely remember that being a requirement, even if I'm remembering incorrectly, LOL. I think when there were four spin boxes on the liste of technical elements for the LP, and one (or two) had to be a one position spin, some skaters attempted something like an opposite direction camel (with possibly some variations) and then regular-direction camel with some variations in order to achieve a level 4.

 

[On My Own]

IIRC back then, wasn't it a requirement that to get 'credit' for opposite direction spins, the opposite direction and regular direction had to be right after one another? Or maybe I'm making that up. Sounds like something the ISU would come up with.

It is in the 2005-06 CoP, for "spin in one position with change of foot" and "spin combo with change of foot" (so both types of change foot spins).

 

[vu2019]

IIRC back then, wasn't it a requirement that to get 'credit' for opposite direction spins, the opposite direction and regular direction had to be right after one another? Or maybe I'm making that up. Sounds like something the ISU would come up with.

That's still a requirement to receive a level feature. The name of the current feature from ISU Communication 2474 (2022-23) is "Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin."

 

[Coco]

The 2005-2006 spin rules were very difficult. I think you had to change positions 5 times to get the highest level for a combo spin, in addition to the DVs.

 

[Seerek]

Maybe the timing is just coincidental, but here is Sofia Frank showing us a sequence we may see often next season.

Sofia Frank on Instagram: "Happy Wednesday! Here’s a 3lz+2a+2t Follow @sofiaiskates for more!! Tags: #figureskating #skating #skate #reels #harrystyles #teamphilippines #philippines #jumps #iliamalinin #edeaskates #skates #yuzuruhanyu #nathanchen

3,545 likes, 19 comments - sofiaiskates on June 15, 2022: "Happy Wednesday! Here’s a 3lz+2a+2t Follow @sofiaiskates for more!! Tags: #figureskating #skating #skate #reels #harrystyles #teamph..."

www.instagram.com

 

[Coco]

Skaters are still capped at doing only two of any kind of double? For example can they only do two double toes? And this applies to attempted 3t that are doubled instead of <<?

This plus the limitation of one sequence per program may mean we don't see too many changes. Or, to put another way, a real triple/2a - triple combination will still be worthwhile for skaters to consistently be able to do.

Because if the skater is doing triple/2a- double toe, another combination could be triple/2a- double toe, the third combination is going to have to be triple/2a - double loop, opposite direction 2z, 3t or 3loop.

If they are attempting a 3t on the back of one of their combinations, they'll have to do it as the 1st or 2nd if their combos to be safe.

Either that or get very adept at 2loop as the final jump in a combination/sequence.

Perhaps we will see an increase on skaters learning opposite direction 2z? Or double x-3toe combinations?

 

[Deleted member 221]

Skaters are still capped at doing only two of any kind of double? For example can they only do two double toes?

Yes.

And this applies to attempted 3t that are doubled instead of <<?

Yes, if it's a double. 3T<< does not count as a double toe but an attempted triple.

 

[CarolineBingley]

Anyone have a video to the one foot 3Z mentioned above? I'd love to see it...

 

[antmanb]

Anyone have a video to the one foot 3Z mentioned above? I'd love to see it...

I struggled to find a clip, but here is Artur Dimitriev Jr's attempt at one foot 3Lz+3F combo - he turns out out on the landing of the flip but got the Lz done well: https://youtu.be/2KMYC8Rf4FI?t=897

The slow mo of the same competition from from a different angle: https://youtu.be/2KMYC8Rf4FI?t=1092

 

[Marco]

Shoma's 3axel4toe and Yuzu's 4toe - 3axel seq will be of the same BV.

 

[On My Own]

I struggled to find a clip, but here is Artur Dimitriev Jr's attempt at one foot 3Lz+3F combo - he turns out out on the landing of the flip but got the Lz done well: https://youtu.be/2KMYC8Rf4FI?t=897

The slow mo of the same competition from from a different angle: https://youtu.be/2KMYC8Rf4FI?t=1092

https://twitter.com/thansukee/status/1045675042971906049

https://twitter.com/yurishounin/status/1408716499573825540

He also attempted it at US Nationals this season, but can't find a video on YT.

 

[Coco]

Does the code of points recognize jumps landed on a back inside edge on the wrong foot as having the same value as the normal version of the jump?

Brian Orser once did a 1-ft double salchow. I always thought it would be so cool if someone did that into a flip jump.