The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

GreenGan said:
Level 2 on the twizzles after a fall ? Does anyone know why ? H/D's and C/B's were level one at world last year.
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I would have to go back and double check the rules and performances, but as I recall C/B and H/D screwed up on the first set of twizzles, whereas Carreira/Ponomarenko had a great first set and didn't screw up until halfway through the second. The way their twizzle are set up I think they can get L4 with only two sets, so it makes sense that they still managed a L2.
 
GreenGan said:
C/B and H/D did too. (And C/B didn't even fell, my bad) Maybe junior's rule are different ?
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Zach fell on the first set of twizzles, sadly. Evan bobbled on the first set as well. I guess it all goes back to execution and with such a competitive senior field, there really is no room for error.
 
AquaLady said:
I think it's not the pattern that's the problem... It's the name of it and how some of the dancers execute it... I have no problem watching teams like Virtue/Moir, who happen to do very well with it.
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Even when performed by great ice dance teams over the years, I still maintain that it is the most boring, artificial pattern among the gold-level dances. (I have a real ice dance rhumba phobia:slinkaway Maybe shock therapy will cure me.)
 
suki said:
Even when performed by great ice dance teams over the years, I still maintain that it is the most boring, artificial pattern among the gold-level dances. (I have a real ice dance rhumba phobia:slinkaway Maybe shock therapy will cure me.)
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What is it about the rhumba that makes people hate performing it?
 
suki said:
Even when performed by great ice dance teams over the years, I still maintain that it is the most boring, artificial pattern among the gold-level dances. (I have a real ice dance rhumba phobia:slinkaway Maybe shock therapy will cure me.)
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Well maybe those great ice dance teams are not so "great" after all if they can't pull off a short dance pattern...oops :shuffle:
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
What is it about the rhumba that makes people hate performing it?
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Good question, VietgrlTerifa. I took freestyle and ice dance for years, and I can't think of one dance coach that liked it. I had one dance coach who had skated at world/Olympic level, and he could barely refer to it by name without twitching. I am sure there are ice dance rhumba lovers out there, but I just haven't meet them, I guess.
 
chameleonster said:
I would have to go back and double check the rules and performances, but as I recall C/B and H/D screwed up on the first set of twizzles, whereas Carreira/Ponomarenko had a great first set and didn't screw up until halfway through the second. The way their twizzle are set up I think they can get L4 with only two sets, so it makes sense that they still managed a L2.
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Yes, it was on the first set for H/B and C/B.

And :" If a Fall or interruption occurs at the entrance to or during a Set of Twizzles and is immediately followed by other Twizzles (for the purpose of filling time), the element shall be identified and given a Level according to the requirements met before the Fall or interruption, or No Level if the requirements for Level 1 are not met, and the additional part shall not be identified." http://static.isu.org/media/1024/id-handbook-for-technical-panel-2017-18_17-08-08.pdf (I found the website xD)

Also requirement for Level 2 : Different entry edge and different direction of rotation for the two Twizzles AND At least 2 rotations in each of the two Twizzles AND At least 2 different Additional Features.

I guess the technical panel considered that she made enough rotation before the fall to warrant the level 2! Ok my bad, a fall during twizzles doesn't mean level 1. Good to know.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
What is it about the rhumba that makes people hate performing it?
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I guess because Latin on the floor is very intricate in itself and requires a certain level of finesse that not all top teams necessarily have. Can't put all the blame on these ice dancers if they're having difficulty executing on the ice... But you know an Ice Dance team is legendary when they can manage to perform such a "horrible" pattern effortlessly.
 
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From what I've seen, the junior pattern is a lot more interesting and visually distinctive with more inherent character to the steps. No pattern can be true Latin, but the Cha Cha Congelado has more personality than the rhumba.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
What is it about the rhumba that makes people hate performing it?
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I remember Scott Moir saying once that he hated it because that rhumba chocktaw is only in that dance, so it's not something that's useful to learn in general, and otherwise, the pattern is really boring and simple. I wish I could find the exact quote....I think it was in a written interview somewhere.
 
Well, I like the rhumba pattern, so there. :p

I'm not sure I would call it a simple pattern. There are so many ways the rhumba can go wrong; perhaps that's why it's not too popular among competitive skaters. First, the entire pattern is done in hold. With the trend in dance toward more open programs, this could be a challenge for some teams.

There is the tricky timing on step three with the leg lift that has to be coordinated just so with the changes of edge. Then there's the distinctive rhumba choctaw and the three turn in hold.

I love the three turn. Some teams just mush through it and some do the turn with a lot of flair.
 
GreenGan said:
I guess the technical panel considered that she made enough rotation before the fall to warrant the level 2! Ok my bad, a fall during twizzles doesn't mean level 1. Good to know.
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Yes, it's based on the number of rotations that are completed before the error. Evan did 1 rev before losing balance, so L1, and Zach fell during the first rev, so no level/value. Christina did 2 revs, so L2.
 
Some interesting words about rumba from the recent interview with Hawayek/Baker (http://www.twofortheice.com/behind-program-ep-7-hawayek-baker-2016-17-2017-18-free-dance/)

"In that 2011-12 season, rhumba key points bedeviled the world’s top teams; only two couples, ranked fifth and seventh, managed to pick up a single Level 4 sequence apiece at 2012’s Four Continents Championships, while the likes of Meryl Davis and Charlie White and Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir achieved the feat at only one and two internationals, respectively. Hawayek and Baker are steeling themselves for the battle. “It’s still going to be very difficult — you’ll definitely see who can skate and who can’t skate,” said Baker. “What looks simple is very, very difficult in terms of making sure the maneuvering of it’s done correct.”

“It’s pure skating skills,” added Hawayek. “You stay in hold the entire time and there’s not any crazy hopping and jumping around. In the sense of watching it, it looks very basic, but because of that simplicity of it, you need to be able to have super strong fundamentals for your skating, and I think it’ll separate the teams that kind of rely on tricks and those who have a really great base of skating skills behind them.”"
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
What is it about the rhumba that makes people hate performing it?
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To add what the others have mentioned about the rhumba pattern and the tricky double choctaw is that both steps of the choctaw (the left forward inside edge and then the right back outside edge) need to be taken as wide as possible (and the widestep just before the choctaw needs to be taken as wide as possible as well). Yet teams must also avoid having any sort of an accordian-type movement. Everything needs to be done in a smooth and supple manner. Very few teams could do that well it seems.

Skating the double choctaw in kilian hold also seems to be a challenge. Kilian hold requires the skaters to be right next to one another, hip to hip. But if you look at most teams, the lady ends up in front of the man somewhat while they perform the wide step.
 
gk_891 said:
Very few teams could do that well it seems.
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They look awkward and uncomfortable even from the best teams in the world. To me anyway. In addition to the difficulty of maintaining the correct edges, it looks painful trying to keep the back straight and the bum tucked in. Kudos to any team who achieves a level 4! Excellent comments above from H/B.
 
So, I'm reviewing the 2012 Worlds SD protocols, EVERY team except for V/M (who did not receive a level 4 call for either one of their rhumba patterns btw) had at least two judges giving them a negative GOE for at least one of the patterns. Wow. Has that happened since?

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf

The only ones who received two level 4s were Pechelat/Bourzat; Hubbell/Donohue; and Zhiganshina/Gaszi and all received some negative GOEs for them but P/B came out with positive GOEs for them overall while H/D had one with no GOE so they survived that.

The Rhumba must be a pattern the judges feel really strongly about...well, at least back then.
 
kittysk8ts said:
They look awkward and uncomfortable even from the best teams in the world. To me anyway. In addition to the difficulty of maintaining the correct edges, it looks painful trying to keep the back straight and the bum tucked in. Kudos to any team who achieves a level 4! Excellent comments above from H/B.
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For sure. So many teams, even those who were known for technical abillities, would struggle with it. To me, it seems like teams who had trained under Natalia Dubova struggled with it a lot which is interesting because Dubova was known for teaching very strong basics.

Klimova & Ponomarenko skated this dance at the 1989 Europeans and while the first step of the choctaw looked fine to me, the second step was not only slower but Marina looks like she's almost on a flat blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMOixgZ7a4

At that same competition, Usova & Zhulin had very very poor choctaws as both steps of the choctaw were practically straight lines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6QNE_a5Lpo

Here is Grishuk & Platov's rhumba from the 1995 Worlds. I like the huge widestep and to a certain extent the first step of the choctaw but the second step is kind of slow and Oksana's back outside edge looks iffy to me (if she's even on a back outside edge). It was also mentioned before in another thread that she also jumps her three-turn after the choctaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzCdLM7JdZg

And here's Navka & Gezalijan's, also from the 1995 Worlds. Both steps looked very slow and weak. But then again, they looked very stiff and stilted throughout that entire season after Dubova sent them away back to Russia after the 1994 Worlds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVh3M2r-dg8

Two teams who did the choctaw extremely well were Torvill & Dean and Bestemianova & Bukin.

T&D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZrwdoAMnk

B&B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijtW5eez8s
 
gk_891 said:
For sure. So many teams, even those who were known for technical abillities, would struggle with it. To me, it seems like teams who had trained under Natalia Dubova struggled with it a lot which is interesting because Dubova was known for teaching very strong basics.

Klimova & Ponomarenko skated this dance at the 1989 Europeans and while the first step of the choctaw looked fine to me, the second step was not only slower but Marina looks like she's almost on a flat blade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMOixgZ7a4

At that same competition, Usova & Zhulin had very very poor choctaws as both steps of the choctaw were practically straight lines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6QNE_a5Lpo

Here is Grishuk & Platov's rhumba from the 1995 Worlds. I like the huge widestep and to a certain extent the first step of the choctaw but the second step is kind of slow and Oksana's back outside edge looks iffy to me (if she's even on a back outside edge). It was also mentioned before in another thread that she also jumps her three-turn after the choctaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzCdLM7JdZg

And here's Navka & Gezalijan's, also from the 1995 Worlds. Both steps looked very slow and weak. But then again, they looked very stiff and stilted throughout that entire season after Dubova sent them away back to Russia after the 1994 Worlds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVh3M2r-dg8

Two teams who did the choctaw extremely well were Torvill & Dean and Bestemianova & Bukin.

T&D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jZrwdoAMnk

B&B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijtW5eez8s
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I just watched all of these and I thank you kindly. Agree with your comments too. And by golly Grishuk does jump her 3 turn on the 2nd pattern for sure.

Zhulin's green onesie tho. OMG. Haha.
 
kittysk8ts said:
I just watched all of these and I thank you kindly. Agree with your comments too. And by golly Grishuk does jump her 3 turn on the 2nd pattern for sure.

Zhulin's green onesie tho. OMG. Haha.
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Yeah, U&Z's costumes were interesting to say the least!

Another good rhumba CD that I forgot to mention was Virtue & Moir's from the 2007 Worlds. My god, their right back outside edge was incredible! I actually think it was stronger than their left forward inside edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iV1Y5p4WcE
 
gk_891 said:
Yeah, U&Z's costumes were interesting to say the least!

Another good rhumba CD that I forgot to mention was Virtue & Moir's from the 2007 Worlds. My god, their right back outside edge was incredible! I actually think it was stronger than their left forward inside edge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iV1Y5p4WcE
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Yes, I have seen all of V/M cds, ods and sds (uber) and they crush most patterns. Although, in the past, they have sometimes not achieved level 4s for the rhumba. I must say though, the new clip of their rhumba this season looks fantastic.
 
It seems like the double choctaw in the rhumba CD was maybe the most difficult one. Neither Klimova & Ponomarenko nor Grishuk & Platov seemed to have had any issues with the closed choctaw in the Blues CD. Usova & Zhulin did have issues with the closed choctaw though, especially at the 1992 Olympics but also at the 1994 Olympics. I remember on CBS, they showed a big close-up of their choctaw in Lillehammer and you can clearly see Usova starting her second step on a back inside edge but then she crosses over to an outside one.

There was also the crossed-open choctaw in the Kilian CD which B&B did an amazingly good job with at the 1988 Olympics. I can't recall how the other teams handled it though.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa said:
Just for reference, these were the winning SD/ODs/OSPs the times Latin was the rhythm:

Virtue/Moir 2012 SD

Denkova/Stavisky 2006 Worlds OD

Nakva/Kostomorov 2006 Olympics OD

Fusar-Poli/Margaglio 2000 Worlds OD

Grishuk/Platov 1994 Worlds Rhumba OD

Torvill/Dean 1994 Olympics Rhumba

Klimova/Ponomarenko 1990 Samba OSP

Torvill/Dean 1981 Cha Cha OSP

I unfortunately could not find videos of Pakhomova/Gorshkov's 1972/1976 OSPs to the Samba and Rhumba.

Which ones are your most and least favorites?
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Torvill/Dean 1994, hands down. I also like Klimova/Ponomarenko's samba, except for the costumes (they are forgiven; it was the early 90s after all). The ODs/OSPs allowed for more creativity than the current short dance format. Thanks for posting these, VietgrlTerifa.
 
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