The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

[clairecloutier]

I think I'd rather see Gilles/Poirier maybe do a "summer training camp" with another coach--i.e., spend some time with another coach a la Jason Brown & Frank Carroll--then switch coaches entirely. I don't know much about Carol Lane, but it just seems she has been an integral part of their team, and I love how different G/P are. I would hate to see them move to another coach and lose their individuality and unique approach.

 

[manhn]

I wonder who those dance teams were who were wanting Lane as a coach. I wonder how many teams would be okay with their coach not attending events with them. Seems weird to me. How do you politik so hard for them if you are not there, particularly internationally?

 

[suki]

You make some good points about G/P.

I wonder if they would benefit from a coaching change? They've been with Carol Lane for a long time. And Paul has been with Lane since he skated with Vanessa Crone. A different coaching team might be able to provide them with some new input and give them the "boot camp" you refer to.

If G/P decide to stay for another Olympic cycle, they should definitely consider some type of different training environment. If they want to move up into the top tier, they should consider going to Montreal and training with Marie-France & Patrice or somewhere else where they can get a different perspective on their skating skills to allow them to get to the next level.

So they can do the same homogenized choreography as the other Montreal teams? No thanks. I like that they are unique and don't follow the trends.

 

[barbarafan]

I wonder who those dance teams were who were wanting Lane as a coach. I wonder how many teams would be okay with their coach not attending events with them. Seems weird to me. How do you politik so hard for them if you are not there, particularly internationally?

Well if your politiking is doing a lot more than the quality of their skating then there is an argument that she is doing more for them on that angle..Convincing other teams to quit because of Tessa&Scott return by saying their is no point of sticking in the game...putting down other teams while praising them. Although her cheoro is absolutely brilliant at times..(I have always liked her programs better than Deane's especially with Vanessa&Paul but also those with Piper and Paul..Her tv influence ..domestic judging influence killed all the competition..one by one in Canada they folded..G/P skated at Challenge and all judges marked them over 9.00 and one judge marked them 9.75 all the way down...I thought nationals would be a disaster but it turned out not too bad...but I still mourn Mckenzie Bent and Nicole Orford/asher Hill and P/I.

The thing is Paul Poirier has been with the Lanes since he was a baby & I don't think he would ever move unless Carol Lane told them they should and she wanted them to do it...but even if they did say go to Gadbois to work on skating skills I think they should go outside or use Carol for their programs...Unless somewhere deep dark MFD has ideas of off the wall programs that she never brings out because it does not suit her teams..Maybe Shae LYne Bourne or Rohene Ward or....don't kill me...Morozov or someone from Mtl....especially for the short....I am sure Jean Mark Genereaux could even turn Paul into a hot masterful lead.

 

[supergirl573]

Well if your politiking is doing a lot more than the quality of their skating then there is an argument that she is doing more for them on that angle..Convincing other teams to quit because of Tessa&Scott return by saying their is no point of sticking in the game...putting down other teams while praising them. Although her cheoro is absolutely brilliant at times..(I have always liked her programs better than Deane's especially with Vanessa&Paul but also those with Piper and Paul..Her tv influence ..domestic judging influence killed all the competition..one by one in Canada they folded..G/P skated at Challenge and all judges marked them over 9.00 and one judge marked them 9.75 all the way down...I thought nationals would be a disaster but it turned out not too bad...but I still mourn Mckenzie Bent and Nicole Orford/asher Hill and P/I.

The thing is Paul Poirier has been with the Lanes since he was a baby & I don't think he would ever move unless Carol Lane told them they should and she wanted them to do it...but even if they did say go to Gadbois to work on skating skills I think they should go outside or use Carol for their programs...Unless somewhere deep dark MFD has ideas of off the wall programs that she never brings out because it does not suit her teams..Maybe Shae LYne Bourne or Rohene Ward or....don't kill me...Morozov or someone from Mtl....especially for the short....I am sure Jean Mark Genereaux could even turn Paul into a hot masterful lead.

Why do people keep harping on this? Do you actually believe that skaters take something an opposing coach says seriously enough to quit? Maybe it had to do with the fact that Skate Canada doesn't send a lot of up-and-coming teams to competitions. Maybe they didn't believe they would get adequate fed support. And quite frankly, if teams are letting something that Carol Lane says get into their heads and make them want to quit, then they do not have what it takes to make it.

 

[barbarafan]

Why do people keep harping on this? Do you actually believe that skaters take something an opposing coach says seriously enough to quit? Maybe it had to do with the fact that Skate Canada doesn't send a lot of up-and-coming teams to competitions. Maybe they didn't believe they would get adequate fed support. And quite frankly, if teams are letting something that Carol Lane says get into their heads and make them want to quit, then they do not have what it takes to make it.

She had teams who quit as well. So maybe they listened to her....I personally do not think the return of T.S was a good reason to quit and I have no idea if any teams did quit because of that..It is C,Lane who said that..I never heard one team use this as a reason to retire. I totally agree the other teams did not get the support they needed from Skate Canada and yes they should all be sent to the B's if they show promise. It seems that some of the skaters are now being sent which is good but for me it is too little too late to save those other teams.

 

[supergirl573]

She had teams who quit as well. So maybe they listened to her....I personally do not think the return of T.S was a good reason to quit and I have no idea if any teams did quit because of that..It is C,Lane who said that..I never heard one team use this as a reason to retire. I totally agree the other teams did not get the support they needed from Skate Canada and yes they should all be sent to the B's if they show promise. It seems that some of the skaters are now being sent which is good but for me it is too little too late to save those other teams.

After V/M and W/P retire, Canadian dance is going to end up like American pairs, with one team at best who is good.

 

[barbarafan]

After V/M and W/P retire, Canadian dance is going to end up like American pairs, with one team at best who is good.

ITA..I really wished the others did not retire but there are good teams coming up..I do like Firus & Soucisse who just got together but had a shaky long at nationals & a few other new juniors..there are also a few novice teams who are coming along nicely but it will take time...I don't think V/M will stay longer but maybe W/P would stay another yr to keep our #of competitors for worlds..Hard to say..I really think Skate Canada needs to look at domestic judges and give them some guidelines...the marks in men's juniors were really strange as well..This is very discouraging for the kids. Fingers crossed.

 

[starrynight]

I wonder who those dance teams were who were wanting Lane as a coach.

If you believe Dave Lease from TSL (IF mind) Weaver and Poje apparently approached her and she said no. But then so did Marie France too apparently. Who knows what to believe.

But it's interesting that we are talking about US pairs. I've read all the discussion about how US skating needs to get a team approach instilled from the top. I suspect we will be having the same sorts of discussions in a couple of years about Canadian ice dance. It seems to me that Canadian ice dance (at least in the very top ranks) is very much a case of every man for himself (particularly if it's the case that W/P wanted to return to Canada to train and effectively had the door closed on them by Canadian coaches wanting to preserve their own interests).

It's like the total opposite of Eteri Tutberidze - who collects champions and pits them against each other. The alternate approach is to make sure you take on no competition to limit the field as much as possible so your current skater/team has a clear path.

 

[barbarafan]

If you believe Dave Lease from TSL (IF mind) Weaver and Poje apparently approached her and she said no. But then so did Marie France too apparently. Who knows what to believe.

But it's interesting that we are talking about US pairs. I've read all the discussion about how US skating needs to get a team approach instilled from the top. I suspect we will be having the same sorts of discussions in a couple of years about Canadian ice dance. It seems to me that Canadian ice dance (at least in the very top ranks) is very much a case of every man for himself (particularly if it's the case that W/P wanted to return to Canada to train and effectively had the door closed on them by Canadian coaches wanting to preserve their own interests).

It's like the total opposite of Eteri Tutberidze - who collects champions and pits them against each other. The alternate approach is to make sure you take on no competition to limit the field as much as possible so your current skater/team has a clear path.

The last time someone (maybe it was me) brought up Dave's scoop someone in the know answered very firmly it never happened. ????

 

[Dobre]

If you believe Dave Lease from TSL . . .

This is the person who tweeted that Ilinykh & Katsalapov were auditioning together about two weeks before the news was released that Sinitsina & Katsalapov are now with Zhulin.

I don't see Gilles & Poirier training with Hubbell & Donohue. (Not because of any past history. Just because these two teams have been such close competition throughout their careers). And I don't see G&P as a Marie-France style team. I do agree that they need to improve their speed.

 

[ninalovesskating]

After V/M and W/P retire, Canadian dance is going to end up like American pairs, with one team at best who is good.

Petition for Carreira and Ponomarenko to transfer federations. She's Canadian. I think they'd get a much better overall shot at reaching the limits of their career.

 

[Dobre]

Petition for Carreira and Ponomarenko to transfer federations. She's Canadian. I think they'd get a much better overall shot at reaching the limits of their career.

If I am understanding the three-year IOC rule correctly, they couldn't compete in the Olympics for Canada in 2022 anyway. Not unless they switched right now and forfeited their shot at a Junior World title this coming season. Or unless they received permission from USFSA. (Your guess is as good as mine there. It's pretty unusual to send off a full Junior World medal team to another country. Can you name an example?) If I am understanding the three-year rule incorrectly, let me know.

There is a lot to be said for more opportunities & experience. But there is a lot to be said for competing against the best of the best on a regular basis. Sometimes it is the high level of competition that pushes athletes to reach "the limits of their career." I think C&P have the potential to reach the top anywhere. It certainly may not happen, and they are not the only U.S. team with that potential. But that is exactly why I think they might actually get there. To the top.

Then again--juniors. You never know who will stay together/stay healthy/keep competing for the long haul. You hope. But you don't bet any money on it.

 

[chameleonster]

I think, theoretically, if they won JW and then sat out a season, they would be eligible to represent Canada(presuming his citizenship went through).

Of course that is presuming that USFSA would even let them go. Separately, perhaps, but send them as a team, to a powerful Fed like Canada seems unlikely. It is true that America is not exactly hurting for top dance teams, and I wouldn't be surprised to see people starting to jump ship post 2018, but C/P seems like a team they would want to hold onto for awhile. They'll only be 21 for the 2022 Olympics, and being so young and fairly new as a team means they(theoretically) have the most untapped potential. It might not pan out that way, of course, but I'm sure that even if USFSA is willing to let entire teams country hop, they'd want to minimize the chance that they'd be kicking themselves a few years down the road.

 

[Dobre]

I think, theoretically, if they won JW and then sat out a season, they would be eligible to represent Canada(presuming his citizenship went through).

OK, yes, I think you are correct. From March 2018, you've got 2019, 2020, 2021. So that would be the deadline, then. Theoretically, a team would need to stop competing for a federation prior to February 2019 if they wished to compete at the 2022 Olympics for another country. (Of course you would still need citizenship). I was just having this conversation, theoretically, about Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson in the citizenship thread. Think I have it sorted out now.

 

[Spiralgraph]

You are forgetting in all this speculation, that C/P may not want to switch their representation to Canada. The desire to switch should come from the skaters and their families and coaches not from Canada's enticing them away by some method.
Yes the USA has strong dance teams at the junior level (and Seniors and novice) but it's my contention that cream rises to the top especially when they are motivated by other teams to keep improving and strive for excellence.

 

[chameleonster]

You are forgetting in all this speculation, that C/P may not want to switch their representation to Canada. The desire to switch should come from the skaters and their families and coaches not from Canada's enticing them away by some method.
Yes the USA has strong dance teams at the junior level (and Seniors and novice) but it's my contention that cream rises to the top especially when they are motivated by other teams to keep improving and strive for excellence.

Oh, its interesting to speculate about if any teams will decide to try their luck elsewhere soon, and what USFSA would do about it, but I don't particularly think that C/P currently have any interest in moving. After all, they had to choose which country to represent back in 2014 when they teamed up, and they must have chosen US for a reason.

In other news Pogrebinsky/Benoit have announced their SD music:“Baddest Girl in Town” + “Lo So Che Finera” + “Bailar”

Also Igor's camp is going through a couple upheavals- both Tobias/Tkachenko and Lorenz/Polizoakis have moved to Marina, presumably because Marina has fewer dance teams.

 

[ninalovesskating]

Oh, its interesting to speculate about if any teams will decide to try their luck elsewhere soon, and what USFSA would do about it, but I don't particularly think that C/P currently have any interest in moving. After all, they had to choose which country to represent back in 2014 when they teamed up, and they must have chosen US for a reason.

In other news Pogrebinsky/Benoit have announced their SD music:“Baddest Girl in Town” + “Lo So Che Finera” + “Bailar”

Also Igor's camp is going through a couple upheavals- both Tobias/Tkachenko and Lorenz/Polizoakis have moved to Marina, presumably because Marina has fewer dance teams.

Igor needs to stop recycling pieces of music from his former teams. It's getting sick. He has some talented teams but their talent is not gonna be able to shine if there's no extensive creative vision.

 

[AquaLady]

Petition for Carreira and Ponomarenko to transfer federations. She's Canadian. I think they'd get a much better overall shot at reaching the limits of their career.

I want to see this happen. Canadian Ice Dance will be on draught after V/M, W/P, G/P. On the other hand, US Ice Dance is stacked. It wouldn't hurt to see a good team with lots of potential representing Canada. They would be the fed's one and only priority in ID and they will surely win multiple national titles. Can you imagine if this actually happens? Plus a coaching change to Marie France and Patrice to seal the Canadian deal? I think they will immediately rise to the top. Having said all that, I doubt if the USFS is willing to let go of such a young, talented team.

 

[mollymgr]

I hope C/P will compete for the US. I see potential. I definitely don't want them going to MFD. If they really need assistance with choreo or coaching, his parents should have all the resources or at least know where to find them.

 

[Dobre]

I want to see this happen. Canadian Ice Dance will be on draught after V/M, W/P, G/P. On the other hand, US Ice Dance is stacked. It wouldn't hurt to see a good team with lots of potential representing Canada. They would be the fed's one and only priority in ID and they will surely win multiple national titles.

I would never bet on such a thing, especially with a junior team. Coming from outside one culture (by which I mean ice dance culture) into another one is tough. Piper, for example, has not exactly been embraced by all fans of Canadian ice dance. All international teams face some level of political opposition. There are still people who do not believe Tanith deserved to compete at the 2006 Olympics. Still people who argue that Roca & Sur did not deserve to compete in 1994. There are many more international dance teams in the World today, but I doubt many of them would tell you the journey has been easy and/or that they have been their federation's one and only priority, much less a large figure skating country like Canada. The unusual scenario, here, is the massive exodus of Canadian dance teams over the past two seasons. That is the catalyst for the discussion. Sport within any country has its challenges.

 

[cgirl8]

Cannuscio and McManus are stepping away from competition http://www.ice-dance.com/site/cannuscio-mcmanus-move-on/

Sad to hear that they are retiring, but best of luck to them in the future.

 

[sap5]

I would never bet on such a thing, especially with a junior team. Coming from outside one culture (by which I mean ice dance culture) into another one is tough. Piper, for example, has not exactly been embraced by all fans of Canadian ice dance. All international teams face some level of political opposition. There are still people who do not believe Tanith deserved to compete at the 2006 Olympics. Still people who argue that Roca & Sur did not deserve to compete in 1994. There are many more international dance teams in the World today, but I doubt many of them would tell you the journey has been easy and/or that they have been their federation's one and only priority, much less a large figure skating country like Canada. The unusual scenario, here, is the massive exodus of Canadian dance teams over the past two seasons. That is the catalyst for the discussion. Sport within any country has its challenges.

But then there's Kaitlyn Weaver, so it's not all doomsday. The real issue is that I can't see USFSA ever letting go of C/P.

 

[clairecloutier]

The real issue is that I can't see USFSA ever letting go of C/P.

Agreed. It's never gonna happen IMO. C/P are way too talented & have too much potential for USFSA to let them go.

And it's not like USFSA isn't treating C/P well, either. They're getting all the opportunities they could want in juniors. It will be tougher in seniors, but I still think they will do very well and get opportunities. And the competition will push them to get better.

 

[Dobre]

The real issue is that I can't see USFSA ever letting go of C/P.

The real issue is that we are just speculating on something that may not be a real issue at all.

To give the Canadian junior champions their due, Lajoie & Lagha defeated Carreira & Ponomarenko by one spot in the short dance at Junior Worlds this season. C&P mucked up the twizzles.

 

[sap5]

After V/M and W/P retire, Canadian dance is going to end up like American pairs, with one team at best who is good.

I found this quote from Scott Moir to be interesting (from http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2017virtuemoir):

Are there any young teams that you especially enjoy, any Canadian juniors?

Scott: We always try and watch. We train with Marjorie and Zac (Lajoie and Lagha). They shattered our junior record last week so the focus has to be on them but I also like watching dancers even younger than that. We were lucky to have the Olympics in Canada in 2010, and it seems like now the sport is busier. I don't know if it's also because of us, but there is a lot more young talent in ice dance. Young boys in particular were so hesitant to go into ice dance and thanks to the Olympics we have many more teams. Even in our own skating club that we came from there are five or six young teams. What a joy for us! Hopefully that's a big tribute to what we have brought to the Canadian skating community - that people are interested in ice dance instead of just looking at singles and pairs.

 

[levineismine]

I think Lajoie and Lagha have lots of promise and charisma. They may be a big surprise on the jr circuit next year...

 

[chameleonster]

They had a bit of a slower start to their season than the other top junior teams(no JGP medals) but they delivered two clean, well skated performances when it counted and had a very good finish. They could be a medal threat next season if they keep improving and get off to a stronger start to the season.

Although I also heard that they're considering going senior for at least part of the season next year to get a trip to 4CC and likely worlds(since V/M will probably skip). Doing both in ice dance is usually more trouble than its worth, but this could be an exception.

 

[Dobre]

At the very least, Lajoie & Lagha ought to finally get onto a JGP podium. Though SC may need to play their cards wisely.

A great program would go a long way for a lot of junior teams.

Teams to watch for next season:
Carreira & Ponomarenko
Shpilevaya & Smirnov
Skoptcova & Aleshin
Polishchuk & Vakhnov
Lajoie & Lagha
Lewis & Bye
The Greens
Ushakova & Nekrasov
Shevchenko & Eremenko
I liked the little French team, but I must have gotten mixed up on their names when I first saw them because they were not the team I was thinking of.

Who else? Who are the young Russian teams entering juniors?

 

[chameleonster]

Konkina/Yakushev were fifth at Russian Nats, and I really liked her with her previous partner. Lagouge/Rahier are a new team with some promise. I liked Fabbri/Pietrantonio, but their height and age difference is a little concerning for their future.

There's a big chance for some major moves in junior dance, especially in America where McNamara/Carpenter and Parsons have been staples for so long. Due to that, the top teams to watch out for are relatively inexperienced and we may see more mistakes and unpredictability because of that. All the junior world champs this quad thus far had been major players in junior dance for awhile before winning, all having gone to JW at least twice before winning and all having a junior world medal and multiple JGPF medals. Of the teams likely to challenge, only Lajoie/Lagha and Shpilevaya/Smirnov have been to more than one junior worlds, only Carreira/Ponomarenko have a junior world medal, and no one has medalled at JGPF yet. Its a much more open field.