The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

Dobre

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I like Stepanova & Bukin better. I think they are stronger competitors. I like the risk in their twizzles and their high energy. I've always thought he was a unique performer, and I feel she has upped her game this season to the point at which they feel strongly matched. I feel like they are skating with a lot of confidence this season. I agree with those who argue that the RD is not a tango, and I do think it is an attempt to hide the fact that they aren't as strong at skating close together as one should for a tango. But I don't think V&M's SD was Latin last season either nor do I think Gilles & Poirier's Beatles program was a waltz. The blues is working. I think I liked their hip hop/blues program even better in 2016-17; but S&B are skating the best I've ever seen them right now.

I like Sinitsina & Katsalapov, and I had hopes for them becoming a dynamic team for three seasons. There comes a point, however, at which one must divest emotionally, and I reached that point with this team somewhere between Europeans two years ago and last year's Nationals. It's just as well. I can be happy for them if they skate well, but zero expectations. They were very fast when last I saw them, though I don't know how that is impacted when they perform more complex footwork; and they have the ability to perform different styles of programs. I feel they should stretch more in this direction at this point. I really like their RD this season, but their FD feels much like last season's FD for me. I don't think I will remember it in the long run.
 
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muffinplus

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I think Sin/Kats FD this year is much stronger than last year's. .. I didn't like last year's FD and thought it was a bit overwrought... mind you can sort of say the same about the second part of it this year, but it works for me. The first half is certainly gorgeous and showcases their lines and extensions. I think you can see how good Vika has become in the RD (twizzle error at SC notwithstanding) and they skate really close together.
 

Dobre

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What would you say is the point of view in the program? What story are they trying to tell, and what is unique about that story? I think there is some more original movement within the program than last season (and than in Hubbell & Donohue's FD); but Sinitsina & Katsalapov's FD program itself is not sticking with me as a larger piece.
 
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Peepsquick

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What would you say is the point of view in the program? What story are they trying to tell, and what is unique about that story? I think there is some more original movement within the program than last season (and than in Hubbell & Donohue's FD); but S&K's FD program itself is not sticking with me as a larger piece.
Do they have to tell a story? Can't a dance be abstract and evoke emotions (for lack of a better word) rather than tell a story? Nothing wrong about telling a story but is it really what matters?
 

Dobre

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Can't a dance be abstract and evoke emotions (for lack of a better word) rather than tell a story?
Are you under the impression that that is what Sinitsina & Katsalapov are doing? Yes, a program can be abstract and evoke emotion. I find that abstract dance without at least a theme or subject matter is much less likely to evoke emotion for me personally, but it can certainly be done. This dance is not doing so for me, and I am not clear whether that is their intention. Do you think it is? And is there a theme they are trying to portray? There is no inherent connection between these two pieces of music so how are they connecting them?
 

muffinplus

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I don't see that there is any story either...this is more of a mood piece than a story to me. I wouldn't say it's unique at all either, but I feel like they have struck the right balance with the interpretation of the music this year. I find Rachmaninoff programs to lend themselves to some pretty bad generic overemoting, and I think they were guilty of it. The choreo in that program was also worse...

Nikita is still emoting to no end... granted but I find that it works better with this music. But the first half of the program is which is best - soft and has more subtlety, my favorite part is from the one foot sequence from 2:24 to the start of the next music cut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6dmjeu6BG4&t=2m24s
 
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Dobre

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Well, if it's just a reflection of different moods, it's not working for me. I'm glad if it's working for others. Sometimes a little personal insight into a program will open a window for my own understanding and/or appreciation of a piece, which is why I asked. I'm just going to file it under: not my thing.
 

Wyliefan

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Programs don't have to tell a story necessarily. I sometimes think the "tell a story" terminology is a little overused, although of course some of them do tell stories very well. But I do like to see them have some sort of emotional arc. The emotions should go in some direction or build to something.
 

muffinplus

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I don't always need to see a story in ice dance to be connected to it either.. when I watch Hubbell & Donohue's Romeo and Juliet, I don't even think of their program as connected to that story, even though I guess it's meant to be but I couldn't care less if that's who they are portraying for me to enjoy it
 
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Peepsquick

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Are you under the impression that that is what Sinitsina & Katsalapov are doing? Yes, a program can be abstract and evoke emotion. I find that abstract dance without at least a theme or subject matter is much less likely to evoke emotion for me personally, but it can certainly be done. This dance is not doing so for me, and I am not clear whether that is their intention. Do you think it is? And is there a theme they are trying to portray? There is no inherent connection between these two pieces of music so how are they connecting them?
The atmosphere of the dance is a sort of throw-back to the (1992) Klimova- Ponomarenko piece on the same music but whereas the choreography was cutting-edge then, it seems dated now... a nostalgic piece reminiscent of the Golden Age of Russian ice dance ? I don't like the change of music at all ... it shatters the mood.
When it comes to the dancing itself, I appreciate Victoria's skills more than his.
S/B have a great FD this year but she can be awkward at times and imo overdoes it, especially towards the end of the piece. It is a good show of sensuality but I personally don't feel the connection between the dancers.
 

Michalle

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I don't think a program needs to tell a story but I do think it's probably not a coincidence that a lot of the most memorable programs often feel like they do - not necessarily a strict beginning/middle/end narrative, but definitely something that ties it all together.

I like all three young Russian teams and it's really hard to choose between them! They are so different! It will be interesting to see which team ends up coming to the fore in the next few years.
 

Ka3sha

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As an ice dancing team I like SinKats better. I like their speed, power and great deep edges. I think that they have better positions and are skating closer. Well, I know that such things don't play an important role in ice dance now, but I can not not pay attention to them. Their RD is my favorite this season. But their FD is beautiful, but very forgettable. I prefer their last season Rach's dance to it.
And I agree that Vika has improved a lot. From what see and read in press, Nikita has also finally grown up and change his attitude to work.

But I also agree with @Dobre that Stepanova and Bukin are better competitors. Plus Sasha looks like she is ready to kill this season :glamor: and also has improved a lot. I like their dedication and relationships - no drama, just work-work-work. I think that both their programs are very different from other teams, and very effective - these programs are working for them really well. I like them as competitive programs, but not as dances in terms of actual dancing on the ice.
For example, I don't get a blues vibe from them in their FD.. there's lots of posing in bluesy style, but if I was looking on their step sequences or lifts without music, I would not recognize the style of the dance. For me Tiff & Jon's FD has much more potential to shine later in the season.
And there's one more thing that bothers me in their skating - her stiff knees, I just can't unseen it, and it usually spoils the impression for me.
And then there's TAT.. I respect her, she is a big professional and etc, but she does commentary for national tv this year and she talks about Bukin A LOT (started doing it right from SA).

Overall, I think that both teams have progressed and improved since last time we saw them, I didn't expect that to say the truth. But I am still rooting for Hubbell/Donohue and especially Gilles/Poirier this season and hope that they will be on Worlds podium in Saitama :)
 
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lauravvv

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McNamara & Carpenter at Skate America, Nepela, Lake Placid International, and the Helsinki GP (M&C had YYYY for both portions of the pattern).
At the Helsinki GP they (M/C) got NTYY for the first portion and YNYY for the second, just to be clear.

Still, thanks a lot for your work, Dobre.
 

Dobre

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At the Helsinki GP they (M/C) got NTYY for the first portion and YNYY for the second, just to be clear.

Still, thanks a lot for your work, Dobre.
Yes, I've just been leaving the YYYY part up for any team that reaches YYYY at any competition this season. No team has done it more than once thus far. I could separate the lists for this in the future for clarity though.
 

mysticchic

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Final in ice dance

HD 15 15 in final
Ita 13 13 in final
Bukin 15 (they have a 1st. They can get 4th and make it) 15 and should get the gold next week. Will be number 2 seed
Sinkats 13 (2nd and above,) France But they do tend to have epic meltdowns.
I'm going to assume these 4 are in

Piper and Paul 11 needs 2nd or better at France to make final. If the French skate they need 2nd to make it in (such a shame in their RD
ZG 11 needs gold or silver this weekend bronze then it's out of their hands silver would put them into a tie breaker

Outside chance
HB NHK and France They need a 1st here to have a chance in France. If they win this weekend, then they have to get 4th or above to get in. If they get 2 silvers they would be in also.
Parsons 2 GP to go NHK and France 1st place sets them up the same as HB
France will be epic. If PC aren't recovered by then, it leaves a wide open field. GP, HB, Sinkats, Parsons all have a shot at final depending on this week and next weeks placements.
JMHO.
 

Dobre

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Hurtado & Khaliavin do also have a chance. It's a slight one; but it exists. For example, now that Chock & Bates are out, it's quite possible--though far from guaranteed--for H&K to finish second at Rostelecom. That would give H&K a 2nd & 4th. If one of the U.S. teams finished 2nd at NHK and then 4th with a lower combined score in France or 5th behind the other U.S. team or Smart & Diaz in France, H&K could outrank them, as well as a team with a 3rd & 3rd.
 

muffinplus

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As an ice dancing team I like SinKats better. I like their speed, power and great deep edges. I think that they have better positions and are skating closer. Well, I know that such things don't play an important role in ice dance now, but I can not not pay attention to them. :)
They should... it should be reflected in the skating skills (and transitions?) mark...

But this seems to be ignored and not dissected to the same degree as to whether someone has X features for a level 4 lift
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Stepanova is improving on this, but despite my preference for S/B, I can see that Sinitsina really does hold her positions better more consistently than Stepanova. Both I think both have speed, but S/K's speed really is better. You can even tell on video how much they're blazing across the rink.
 

Ka3sha

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Both I think both have speed, but S/K's speed really is better. You can even tell on video how much they're blazing across the rink.
SinKats skate faster and with more power, it’s especially noticeable live and when one team goes right after another. Though I agree that S/B are also quite fast and skate with great attack. But they gain speed in a bit odd way - not from knees work or their feet (like Hubbell/Donohue do, for example). Sometimes it looks like they are rushing, but it works for them!
 

levineismine

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Cross posting from the Japanese skaters thread:
Here's our new interview with Misato and Tim: Link
We talked about their beginnings, the coaching change, the new programs, ice dance in Japan, and some fun stuff.
There's a part two coming with their answers to fans questions.
 

muffinplus

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It is. S&K almost always outplace some team based on PCS despite having lower TES. S&K don't get the levels. Haven't for at least three years now.
I know we aren't supposed to compare across events, but Stepanova/Bukin PCS are almost the same in Helsinki as Sin/Kats PCS in Canada (and same marks for skating skills)
 

Dobre

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I know we aren't supposed to compare across events, but Stepanova/Bukin PCS are almost the same in Helsinki as Sin/Kats PCS in Canada (and same marks for skating skills)
So. Stepanova & Bukin have some better skating skills than Sinitsina & Katsalapov. Not speed, I don't think. But perhaps control. I talked earlier about how I'm not certain if Stepanova & Bukin can get the level 4s on the footwork. Well, at least they are getting the level 3s. Sinitsina & Katsalapov have been struggling to get those. (I have to say I don't think Elek, the Assistant caller at SC & the caller from the U.S. Classic, is inclined to give level 3s on the steps at the start of the season; but S&K had the same problem at Nepela). All level 2s on the steps, and most teams with great skating skills do better on the steps than their peers. It has been the technical separator of the best from the rest for the past quadrennium.
 
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MarieM

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S&K are hopeless in terms of being consistent with levels.
And they are supposed to have superior SS? Superior SS means you DELIVER the levels, not everytime but most of the time.
They can't. Either because they are poorly trained (and really we all could make a case of that), or because they aren't as good as people think. Control is part of SS. They have absolutly zero control as Nikita has shown us over and over again. You can see they could be brilliant, but they are not because of that lack of control.
And they are not good competitors. And under IJS, it's a big no no.
 

starrynight

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GOE and PCS don't have much or anything to do with levels. The results so far have proved that. Hello very high GOE for level 1 steps.

Also I see that full details for P/C's free dance music has been announced as discussed in their fan thread. See below for those who don't read the individual skater threads:

 
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starrynight

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Interesting things in the judging.

Hawayek/Baker's level 1 Tango Romantica outscored Skotpcova/Aleshin's level 3 Tango Romantica by 1.64 points

Hawayek/Baker: 1TR1: 7.76 points
Skoptcova/Aleshin: 1TR3: 6.12 points

I'd say this certainly answers our question as to whether a level 1 could outscore a level 4.
Just copying this over from the RD thread as we have been discussing the interaction between GOE and levels a lot here.

I think this is a good example of a lower level outscoring a higher one.
 
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Just copying this over from the RD thread as we have been discussing the interaction between GOE and levels a lot here.

I think this is a good example of a lower level outscoring a higher one.
These needs to be changed. Lower technical levels should not allow teams to top teams with higher levels. I suggest to limit GOEs for level one to 1, for level two to 2 for level 3 to 3 and 4,5 only for level 4.
 

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