The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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topaz

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Stepanova/Bukin over Sin/Kats any day. I find their programs more enjoyable.
lol, I actually think the opposite. I like S/B free dance but overall I think SinKats have two strong programs compared to one program from S/B . Both Nikita and Ivan are talented ice dancers but I think Victoria S is a better skater and has more musicality than Alexandra.
 

firstflight

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So we have at NHK another element the judges loved enough to mark as a +4/+5 exemplar— Fear/Gibson’s choreographed sliding element to end the program. Looking over the rest of the GOE marks, the judges loved their FD performance. Winning the TES by more than 3 points over everybody else is a huge 😳.
 

Dobre

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Updating the list with teams that have received a YY for the rocker portion of the pattern in international competition. I made a separate list below for teams that have earned YYYY on any portion of the pattern. Teams that have earned it on both portions of the pattern are at the top of that list.

Teams that have earned a YY on the rocker portion of the pattern:
Guignard & Fabbri at Skate America, Lombardia, and the Helsinki GP.
The Parsons at the Asian Open, Lake Placid International, and NHK.
McNamara & Carpenter at Skate America, Nepela, Lake Placid International, and the Helsinki GP.
Turkkila & Versluis at Nepela and Minsk-Arena Ice Star.
Tessari & Fioretti at Nepela and Minsk-Arena Ice Star.
Muller & Dieck at Nepela.
Wang & Liu at Autumn Classic and NHK.
Carreira & Ponomarenko at Nebelhorn.
Gilles & Poirier at Nebelhorn.
Kaliszek & Spodyriev at Skate America.
Koch & Nuchtern at the International Halloween Cup.
Moscheni & Fabbri at the Volvo Open.
Stepanova & Bukin at the Helsinki GP.
Zagorski & Guerreiro at NHK.
Skoptcova & Aleshin at NHK.

Teams that have earned a Level 4 (YYYY) on the pattern:
McNamara & Carpenter (On both parts at Skate America).
Zagorski & Guerreiro (On both parts, the second part at Skate America, the first part at NHK)
Wang & Liu (On the first part at the Autumn Classic).
Carreira & Ponomarenko (On the first part at Nebelhorn).
Guignard & Fabbri (On the first part at the Helsinki GP).
Turkkila & Versluis (On the first part at Minsk-Arena Ice Star).
Tessari & Fioretti (On the first part at Minsk-Arena Ice Star).
Koch & Nuchtern (On the first part at the Halloween Cup).
 
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Dobre

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I'm happy for Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen and think they have a really good shot at making the Canadian team this season. Plus, I hope a solid shot at factoring for the top ten at Worlds. I have no idea what to expect with the keypoints, though. As Soucisse & Firus had a 4/3 on the pattern at the summer event in Quebec, and they are really struggling with the pattern internationally this season. They received another Basic for half of their pattern at NHK.
 

Dobre

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What is a 4/3 on the pattern? [/no teknik]
Sorry, it's just my own shorthand for a Level 4 on the first part of the pattern and a Level 3 for the second part. I brought up Soucisse & Firus because they were at the same summer event in Quebec as Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson. (Which is the only previous chance we have had to see F-B&S this season). At that event, both teams had very high pattern levels. Internationally, though, Soucisse & Firus are getting a lot of level 1s and basics. So while I want to get all excited for F-B&S's scores at Sectionals, I'm hesitant. Just going to have to wait and see.
 

VGThuy

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I caught this video from Cut (big fan of them and their kids' channel HiHo Kids) of this guy being introduced to 8 different dancers and I thought I'd like to see some of these styles adapted into future RDs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5UR6qvZCbE

It's a bit NSFW because the guy being introduced to the dances curses a lot, :lol:.

Apparently that was a follow-up to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUxf7oytC9M
where they had more people rating the dancers.
 
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Colonel Green

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Sorry, it's just my own shorthand for a Level 4 on the first part of the pattern and a Level 3 for the second part. I brought up Soucisse & Firus because they were at the same summer event in Quebec as Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson. (Which is the only previous chance we have had to see F-B&S this season). At that event, both teams had very high pattern levels. Internationally, though, Soucisse & Firus are getting a lot of level 1s and basics. So while I want to get all excited for F-B&S's scores at Sectionals, I'm hesitant. Just going to have to wait and see.
It seems like almost all the Gadbois teams have been having a rough time with the pattern, to one degree or another. Something to work on.

Regarding the impending faceoff for third place at Canadian Nationals, the first half of the season definitely hasn't gone as Carolane and Shane were doubtless hoping it would -- namely, they had some time on the international stage that Laurence and Nikolaj lacked that might have been a useful cushion if they came fourth at Canadians and were still hoping to get the remaining international assignments. They've unfortunately had a lot of struggles, so I can't see any reason why the fed would depart from the nationals ordinals in making its choices; so in that sense, it's all riding on Canadians now.
 

VGThuy

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It seems like almost all the Gadbois teams have been having a rough time with the pattern, to one degree or another. Something to work on.
That's true with levels but their teams have been receiving great GOEs for the pattern, which maybe shows that although Gadbois is obviously trying to get their team to hit the levels, they are focusing on making it look as good and dancey as possible right now.
 

RoseRed

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That's true with levels but their teams have been receiving great GOEs for the pattern, which maybe shows that although Gadbois is obviously trying to get their team to hit the levels, they are focusing on making it look as good and dancey as possible right now.
And as we've seen, getting good GOE can make a huge difference, so maybe not the worst strategy.
 

Dobre

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Or maybe the GOE marks are lagging behind the levels the way PCS lags behind TES, and the GOE will proceed to drop if teams keep dropping levels and proceed to climb if teams start hitting them consistently. I feel like looking at this a bit, but can't see myself doing it tonight. Most of the well established teams have only skated a couple events so it might be too early to tell. (And hopefully we won't find out because the high-profile teams that are struggling will start getting the levels). Also, scores tend to rise in general as teams polish their vehicles (though they also vary widely based on the panels) so ultimately it's going to be a question of relativity. Does your GOE hold up relative to other teams if you proceed to not get levels? Does it stay high relative to other teams regardless? Or does it climb at a faster pace for your competition?
 

firstflight

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... which is why it’s instructive for everyone to look over the NHK protocols in the FD.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gpjpn2018/data0405.pdf

This panel did something fascinating, IMO. The GOE marks and PCS marks actually kind of decoupled here. F/G earned ten +5 marks, way above the second best of two +5 marks for H/B. And twenty-four +4 marks for F/G vs eighteen +4 marks for H/B.

But those two teams weren’t even the favorites to win! Z/G, the faves, and P/P *combined* for only fourteen +4 marks and one +5 mark.

Just looking over the GOE spread for all four teams- count the under +3 marks too; it runs the same way as the +4/+5 totals- it’s clear the judges ranked the top four as: 1) F/G; 2) H/B; 3) P/P; 4) Z/G.

But go to PCS, and the order is clearly banded too: 1) H/B; 2) Z/G; 3) P/P; and 4) F/G.

Since F/G skated first out of these four, it’s almost as if they broke the judging by being sooo compelling in their precision that the rest of the judging results cascaded from their marks.
 

Colonel Green

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I think we're going to see a lot of teams trying to emulate Fear and Gibson in their programs next year, because their NHK performance really highlights just how many TES points you can get by running up the GOE on the new choreographic elements, where the main requirement is basically just "does it look really cool?" Particularly for less-established teams looking to draw attention, it's clearly a strategy with big upside.
 

VGThuy

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I wonder how Z/G's GOEs would have been if they had just skated better. Their elements were seriously shaky during that FD. I'm really surprised they weren't artificially held up but I guess some people would argue some other teams domestically have an interest in not seeing them held up...:TT1::skandal
 

Escarbille

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What are the benchmarks of the world ice dance hierarchy with the evolution of rules and notations for this new season?
Season 2017-2018: SD = 85.3, FD = 124.7, Total = 210.0
This season 2018-2019: RD = 91.52, FD = 137.84, Total = 229.36.
This is a significant change, the ISU statistics are archived, new ones are starting this year.
There is, however, a method for understanding the evolution of scores as the rule changes; it is the translation of the score obtained as a percentage of the maximum theoretical score (perfect).
Thus, a pair that skates 90% of perfection scored 189 last season ... and will get a score of 206.4 this season.
Out of curiosity, I made this comparison for 20 couples of Ice Dance.
Postulate: I compared the scores of the 1st GP between the 2017/2018 and 2018/2019 seasons ... except for W/P where I took, as an element of comparison, the CS Autumn classic 2018 score.
All that is missing is the C/B and P/C scores.
Couples are ranked in descending order of this season's score (1st GP, except W/P).

---------------------------------------- 1st GP17 / % ---- 1st GP18 / % -----/ Evolution

HUBBELL / DONOHUE ----------------- 189.43 / 90.2% ---- 200.82 / 87.6% ----/ -2.65%
STEPANOVA / BUKIN ------------------ 179.35 / 85.4% ---- 200.09 / 87.2% ----/ 1.83%
WEAVER / POJE ------------------------ 190.01 / 90.5% ---- 197.27 / 86.0% ----/ -4.47%
SINITSINA / KATSALAPOV ------------ 177.15 / 84.4% ---- 195.17 / 85.1% ----/ 0.74%
GUIGNARD / FABBRI ------------------ 171.37 / 81.6% ---- 192.30 / 83.8% ----/ 2.24%
GILLES / POIRIER --------------------- 172.29 / 82.0% ---- 186.97 / 81.5% ----/ -0.52%
HAWAYEK / BAKER -------------------- 165.20 / 78.7% ---- 184.63 / 80.5% ----/ 1.83%
ZAGORSKI / GUERREIRO ------------- 164.41 / 78.3% ---- 181.43 / 79.1% ----/ 0.81%
MCNAMARA / CARPENTER ------------ 157.61 / 75.1% ---- 180.52 / 78.7% ----/ 3.65%
LAURIAULT / LE GAC ------------------ 147.19 / 70.1% ---- 180.32 / 78.6% ----/ 8.53%
PARSONS / PARSONS ----------------- 148.75 / 70.8% ---- 178.54 / 77.8% ----/ 7.01%
SMART / DIAZ ------------------------- 154.81 / 73.7% ---- 176.57 / 77.0% ----/ 3.26%
HURTDAO / KHALIAVIN --------------- 165.03 / 78.6% ---- 172.09 / 75.0% ----/ -3.56%
FEAR / GIBSON ----------------------------------------------- 170.70 / 74.4% ----/ --------
CARREIRA / PONOMARENKO -------------------------------- 167.28 / 72.9% ----/ --------
WANG / LIU ---------------------------- 151.17 / 72.0% ---- 165.88 / 72.3% ----/ 0.34%
POPOVA / MOZGOV ------------------- 164.02 / 78.1% ---- 157.56 / 68.7% ----/ -9.41%
SOUCISSE / FIRUS -------------------- 150.27 / 71.6% ---- 156.74 / 68.3% ----/ -3.22%

You can compare from one season to another the evolution of this or that couple.
In the end, we note a certain stability of performance on this perimeter of competitors (reminder: couples with high scores, do not compete this year: V/M, S/S, C/L, B/S ...): average of 78% in both 2017/2018 and 2018/2019.
Finally, let's turn the 2017/2018 score of C/B and P/C into a 2018/2019 score (postulate: zero evolution rate) ... We get the two best scores. These WDs are unfair, for couples obviously in the first place, for us fans too.

PAPADAKIS / CIZERON ----------------- 200.43 / 95.4% ---- 218.90 / 95.4% ----/ 0.00%
CHOCK / BATES ------------------------- 184.50 / 87.9% ---- 201.52 / 87.9% ----/ 0.00%
 

starrynight

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I think we're going to see a lot of teams trying to emulate Fear and Gibson in their programs next year, because their NHK performance really highlights just how many TES points you can get by running up the GOE on the new choreographic elements, where the main requirement is basically just "does it look really cool?" Particularly for less-established teams looking to draw attention, it's clearly a strategy with big upside.
Who are Fear/Gibson's choreographers?
 

Dobre

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I don't know what to think about F&G's FD marks. Am just going to wait & see if they can repeat it at Europeans.

Six teams are out since Fear & Gibson last competed at Euros in 2017. They finished 15th then, which would put them 9th based on retirements/teams-not-competing-this-season. One spot is Russian and will likely be filled by a competitive team. Spain now has two spots and can fill both with teams that can compete. F&G defeated both Kaliszek & Spodyriev and Nazarova & Nikitin at SA. (Based on last season and the growth between Nebelhorn and SA, I would say that K&S are likely to look quite a bit stronger by Euros. N&N--sigh--seem to be more of a longterm project at the moment). Either way, however, we'll assume that F&G have passed those two teams for the season unless proven otherwise. So . . . 9th? Or are we to assume that the Brits are going to spring over the Spanish teams & young French team as well? (Which would be 6th and is where Coomes & Buckland finished in the dance hierarchy last season).

The other team trending substantially upward is Turkkila & Versluis.

Both have inherited the #1 ranking for their country this season. (Along with Guignard & Fabbri, Stepanova & Bukin as of their last head-to-head with the Russian field, Komatsubara & Koleto, and Weaver & Poje as of their last head-to-head with Gilles & Poirier). Very early to bring up Europeans, but it is the next international I could think of that either Fear & Gibson or Turkkila & Versluis have.
 
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starrynight

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Bios says Romain Haegenhaur
I thought I'd read somewhere they had outside choreography and that's why their FD is so different to what everyone else in their camp got? But all my information is probably blending into itself.

It's interesting, I'd rate Fear/Gibson and Lajoie/Lagha as having by far and away the best choreography in their camp and they are not the top senior priorities. Funny how that can work sometimes.
 

Cayuse

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It's interesting, I'd rate Fear/Gibson and Lajoie/Lagha as having by far and away the best choreography in their camp and they are not the top senior priorities. Funny how that can work sometimes.
Fear and Gibson have a "hit" routine with great audience appeal. The positive audience response (judges are part of the audience!) builds confidence and the dance gets better each time it is skated. The same thing happened with the Polish team's "Dirty Dancing" routine and the Shib's "Fix You". We in the audience live for those routines. The new choreographic elements this year are helping reduce some of the "cookie cutter" effect of the free dances. Skaters are paying more attention to the potential high GOE points. Next year I predict we'll see even more variety and a shift away from soft and lyrical.
 

Icetigger

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It's interesting, I'd rate Fear/Gibson and Lajoie/Lagha as having by far and away the best choreography in their camp and they are not the top senior priorities. Funny how that can work sometimes.
I agree. By the interesting programmes (FD-wise) in that camp.
 

Peepsquick

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It also goes against the idea that Gadbois is running out of creative juice ... I always marvel at the diversity of programs coming out of that school. The other piece I am in love with this season is also choreographed by Hagenauer: Smart/Diaz' RD... a true gem!
 

VGThuy

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IMO, it's clear that Gadbois and Carol Lane are producing the best dance programs in the world right now. Even if you don't like the direction or style of most of the programs from Gadbois, you can't deny that they are fully-choreographed pieces using a variety of moves from an extended dance vocabulary. They never feel full of throw-away moves to me like I often feel with so many ice dance programs from 2008-on. I also like the work Fusar-Poli is doing for Guignard/Fabbri (love actually) and Zhuk/Samarskaia/Tchernyshev seem inspired for Stepanova/Bukin as well.
 

levineismine

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Lajoie/Lagha have my favorite set of programs this year, across juniors and seniors.
Hagenauer choreographed them.
I think Gadbois has produced some brilliant programs this year (I agree with Smart/Diaz's SD too), but some others look a bit uninspired or perhaps not fully developed, or not the best direction for a team. But this is true for any skating school I think, not all the programs can be masterpieces.
 

chantilly

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I’m so jealous because I’ve hardly seen any dance programs this year because my cable is not showing anything.

Some help with existing streams would be appreciated.

I prefer with commentary in English.

So excited to see Fear and Gibson and L and L from
Canada. And G and F. Although I admit I’m not the biggest fan of them
 
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