The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Amantide]

I guess USCIS decides she didn’t qualify as an alien with extraordinary ability (but Melania is, I guess ). But I’m no lawyer; that’s my interpretation from the document linked by that tweet.

Melania has been living and working in USA as a model since the 90s, like many other models.
Plus she married with Trump in 2005. So, she automatically got the citizenship also.

But it's strange, indeed, that an athlete isn't considered as an alien with "extraordinary ability". An athlete, easily gets the permission to stay and work, in Europe.
Well, at least in Italy, as far as I know.

 

[Daena]

Melania has been living and working in USA as a model since the 90s, like many other models.
Plus she married with Trump in 2005. So, she automatically got the citizenship also

Well, both of those cases didn't qualify her as "person of extraordinary ability" (well, on second thought... No, I don't want to think about it).
Anyway, her living in US and marrying Trump hardly qualified her as person of extraordinary ability in science, athletics, education or business.

 

[Amantide]

Well, both of those cases didn't qualify her as "person of extraordinary ability" (well, on second thought... No, I don't want to think about it).
Anyway, her living in US and marrying Trump hardly qualified her as person of extraordinary ability in science, athletics, education or business.

That's the law though, and I don't see how she relates to this case.
Anyone who marries a US citizen gets the citizenship. Be that person called Melania or Antonella.
My cousin, who is a "nobody", received it too when she married a US citizen.
This is not just in USA, but everywhere. If you mary an Italian, you get the citizenship.

As for the visa and permission to work, these are two different things as well.
There is the visa for business reasons, or for visiting/tourism. You may get the visa but you are not permitted to work without "permission to work".
Now, "a person of extraordinary ability" usually do get the permission to work. Ahtletes and models do enter into that category. That is why, it seems strange to me that they would deny this to an athlete.

Sure there is a lot of paper work, and I don't know all the details of documents that you have to submit. But normally, it shouldn't be that difficult for a certified athlete.

 

[oleada]

Melania has been living and working in USA as a model since the 90s, like many other models.
Plus she married with Trump in 2005. So, she automatically got the citizenship also.

But it's strange, indeed, that an athlete isn't considered as an alien with "extraordinary ability". An athlete, easily gets the permission to stay and work, in Europe.
Well, at least in Italy, as far as I know.

Melania didn't get her green card and citizenship by marrying Trump. Prior to that, she was modeling on a work visa She got it through the same program Christina is now being denied. You can't possibly argue that Melania is more "skilled" than Christina. You don't get citizenship automatically through marriage; you get the right to apply for a green card; and after two years, you are eligible to apply for citizenship. And I am familiar with the difference between a visa, a green card, visa and citizenship. I'm sorry I made this throwaway comment as it's derailing the thread.

Likely that is their target, and yes, it would have been difficult even if the O-visa had not been denied. Without knowing all the details of her case, I have the following thoughts which seem to be different from the above sentiments:
1) The O is for extraordinary talents. So far, Christina Carriera is simply not all that extraordinary. Very good yes, but not a track record so far that would warrant handing her an O. IMO, she is asking for something that she doesn't yet merit.
2) Given the depth of ice dance in the USA, it is presumptuous to think that she and her partner will even make the 2022 Olympic team. They might have a shot, but it's far from certain given the competition. She has not been denied the ability to compete for the USA in any other international capacity, as that is perfectly OK by ISU rules. So this is all really about the 2022 Olympics and only that. She should have plenty of time to get green card and citizenship for the 2026 Olympics under standard regulations.

In short, she can try to fight or sue or whatever, but she doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure she's looking at Tanith Belbin as the model to follow, but Tanith's situation was different on multiple dimensions.

I say this as a fan of Carreira/Ponomarenko, but this leaves a bit of a sour impression for me. It's not like they didn't know this would be an issue when they teamed up.

It may feel presumptuous to you, but she has literally no chance to make the Olympics without going for citizenship. Given that it's a long and generally difficulty process; better to start now that she's turned 18. I also don't think it's that much of a long shot. The Shibutanis may be done; Chock/Bates have injury issues; and Hawayek/Baker, the Parsons and McNamara/Carpenter are not exactly unbeatable or that much better than them. I think saying that they didn't know when they teamed up is a bit harsh - it's not like they knew their partnership would be so successful. Finding an ice dance/Pairs partner is certainly difficulty enough.

 

[allezfred]

I never liked U/Z's "Blues for Klook" program.

That programme is the essence of what "THE SEX" is all about.

 

[PRlady]

same thing happened to the danes they are now skating for Canada, if she can't get citizenship I see no other option unless Trump is defeated in 2020.

The citizenship situation is murky. My husband just got his green card relatively quickly - six months - but that was with process and interviews in his country of origin. The process is much slower than it used to be either because the political echelon wants fewer people approved, the consular division is understaffed and underfinanced, or both.

Carreira is going to find it hard to prove that her job can’t be done by an American. Seriously. And I’m a fan of that team.

 

[Dobre]

As I understand it, the reason for the denial is not that she is not talented enough or hasn't achieved enough, its that her achievements do not count because the USCIS don't consider ISU competitions to be internationally recognized because one has to represent a country with ISU membership in order to be eligible to compete.

Gobbledegook. Good for her for appealing.

Other thoughts:
-There have clearly been athletes that have gained citizenship since Tanith who did not have as high a level of international achievement as Belbin & Agosto. I am remembering an interview with a Nordic skier. He didn't need a partner with citizenship. He didn't medal. They didn't expect him to medal. Using B&A as a standard isn't fair.

-Also perhaps not comparable. When B&A applied, they had the argument that they could contribute in a more unique way than anyone else. At that time no U.S. dance team had medaled for over a decade and there was no other team that could accomplish such a high level of success.

-Athletes do know that obtaining U.S. citizenship is not easy. The wait time has always been longer than for many countries. I remember 5 years being the standard for non-expedited citizenship years ago. No idea if that is still the norm since we've had so many changes over the last several administrations.

-Expedited citizenship obviously requires a certain level of achievement first so it's not necessarily all that "expedited." If someone had specified that the level of achievement was the issue for Christina, then C&P could work for it. However, that doesn't appear to be the case. It's wise to apply early regardless.

-The Danes left their Federation because there was no route toward citizenship at all that would allow them to train with a top coaching team. That isn't the case in the U.S. There has always been a route toward citizenship. But it can be a difficult and long one. In many disciplines, the wait might be unthinkable. In dance, however, missing one Olympics and aiming for another is plausible. As most dance teams peak at a 2nd or 3rd Olympics. It's a huge commitment; but for the right partner, it could be worth it.

-We don't know how long USFSA could hold Anthony; but we do know the following:

C&P have a Junior World medal. (Actually two). No one I can think of that has been released from USFS has reached that level of accomplishment at the Junior level prior to a release. (Not Piper. Not Keegan). Can anyone think of an athlete that has done so?

If Daniel Eaton gains a release to skate for Korea, he will have done so.

In a conversation on another thread earlier this year, Kwanfan said back when Morgan Mathews was trying to gain a release, the requirement was that she wait five years. (Maybe this was not arbitrary and was linked to the 5 years for citizenship requirement at the time?) I think a lot of us have assumed that the amount of time USFS requires for a release may have dropped; but does anyone know? If Eaton competes this season, it will only have been 4 since he medaled at 4CCs. If Min & Eaton don't compete for Korea until next year, it will have been the full 5 years. (Though I think only 4 since he last competed--with a different partner--internationally for the U.S.)

Mathews & Zavoisin and Aldridge & Eaton both had a 4CC medal. So they had met a higher level of achievement than just a Junior World medal. It is possible they might have been/be held to a longer wait time than Anthony & Christina would be. (Even if the wait time hasn't been decreased).

 

[VGThuy]

That programme is the essence of what "THE SEX" is all about.

When it came to the blues, I preferred their Summertime OD.

At my first internship, my org did a lot of U and T visas, and we discussed the extraordinary ability visa and the lawyers there called it the “model” visa. All this talk about Melania made me think of that.

 

[jiejie]

Melania has been living and working in USA as a model since the 90s, like many other models.
Plus she married with Trump in 2005. So, she automatically got the citizenship also.

Just to correct a misconception, marrying a US citizen does NOT automatically confer citizenship. Still have to go through the process of getting a spousal visa (or fiancee visa if outside the US then coming in to marry), then a green card, then citizenship. That still takes time. But marriage gives one a faster track to getting the green card. Melania got her green card in 2001, way before her 2005 marriage to Trump, so she was already mostly through the green card-to-citizenship period by the time of her marriage. In her case, whether she married a US citizen or not, she would have been eligible for citizenship during 2006.

The issue of whether models 20 years ago deserved the extraordinary ability visa more than ice dancers today, is a different one.

 

[emilieh]

Back when Morgan Matthews was inquiring about a release, I think that the hearsay was that they were making her wait 4 years since her last international medal, which was in 2006.

I think the same standard was also being discussed when Vanessa Crone & Keiffer Hubbell were trying to team up. Hubbell's last medal was 2010 Four Continents with Madi, he never won one with Anastasia Olson. Hence why a release was delayed when he & Crone were training together in summer/fall 2013, and they didn't want to sit out a season?

Gilles last medaled for the U.S. in fall 2009; although she skated with Poirier in Canadian domestic events in the 2011-12 season, her USFS release wasn't awarded until later in 2012. So that was a three-year waiting period for her, and she also quit the sport for a year before teaming up with Poirier. There was also a lot of talk at the time about how she could get Canadian citizenship easily because she had a Canadian grandparent, however I think the Canadian immigration law changed around that time, and Piper ended up going through the same process that Kaitlyn Weaver did, for example.

Gamelin never won an international medal for the U.S., and his last assignment was a JGP in 2011, so he also was 4 years since competing for USFS when he got his (immediate?) release in 2015.

If Eaton gets a release this year, that will be 3 years since his last international medal (2015 Ice Challenge with Danielle Thomas) or 4+ since his last championships medal (2014 4CC with Aldridge).

So unfortunately, there's probably a precedent to hold Carreira for USFS for quite a while.

 

[jmtfti]

The Crone/Hubbell timeline was actually earlier than that, which is why the situation was tougher. They were training together in fall 2011, before he teamed with Anastasia Olson. So a year and a half since his 4CC medal -- apparently not enough time for USFS -- and less than that since her 4CC medal and national title with Poirier (not that they were angling to represent the US, but in terms of all possible options -- that one wasn't any better).

 

[emilieh]

The Crone/Hubbell timeline was actually earlier than that, which is why the situation was tougher. They were training together in fall 2011, before he teamed with Anastasia Olson. So a year and a half since his 4CC medal -- apparently not enough time for USFS -- and less than that since her 4CC medal and national title with Poirier (not that they were angling to represent the US, but in terms of all possible options -- that one wasn't any better).

Oh thanks, got the timeline messed up on that! That makes more sense. Even if they offered Keiffer the same 3-year deal that Piper got, they still would have been sitting out more than just that one season.

 

[barbarafan]

So the visa application precedes the green card application? Then most likely, she wouldn't be able to get citizenship in time for Beijing (which they might not qualify for anyway, esp if the current top 3 teams all continue until then), b/c isn't there a waiting period between getting your green card and applying for citizenship?

But this could have a chilling effect on future athletes in any sport who are seeking to represent the U.S. at the Olys.

I thought she has been living in the US for several years. Her parents live there I believe so they must have done something paperwork wise for them to work in the US.

 

[rinkside]

I thought she has been living in the US for several years. Her parents live there I believe so they must have done something paperwork wise for them to work in the US.

Christinas parents live and have always lived in Canada.

 

[rinkside]

I think that her mother is an attorney.

 

[Holy Headband]

If Carreira/Ponomarenko's appeal fails and they try to switch to Canada, it would be pretty scummy of the US federation to obstruct/prolong the process in this particular case since the couple will not be responsible for their failure to represent the US, which is their first choice. So I hope USFS would have the decency not to hold Ponomarenko's paperwork as long as they would otherwise.

 

[Dobre]

If the appeal fails, though, can't she still apply via another route? I thought someone already clarified above that she could probably still apply.

 

[supergirl573]

That programme is the essence of what "THE SEX" is all about.

I could never jive with the program. Maybe it's because the first time I saw it, the YouTube video was preceded on how Alexander cheated on Maya with their rinkmate.

 

[jiejie]

Back to an original point I made upthread, which seems to be getting lost in the discussion: Christina is not being denied the ability to compete in the Olympics at all. It's just the time frame of the standard route to citizenship does not work with the 2022 time frame. She is looking for a way to speed up that time frame through the extraordinary visa program, which to make a complicated story short, "fast tracks" the holder on the green card/citizenship eligibility path. It's still a very tight time frame even if she did get the O/EB visa. If she took the regular path through a different visa category, she could be eligible for the 2026 Olympics. Yes, that's farther out and anything could happen, but it is what it is. Even if she was granted the O/EB, it would still be very tight to get citizenship by the deadline for 2022. Unfortunately for her, she just turned 18 so the timing of getting a lot of this paperwork going couldn't be started earlier when she was a minor.

Another point that I haven't seen made yet: In the scheme of the country's priorities (if you were to poll a large cross-section of Americans), handing out extraordinary visas and fast-tracking green cards/citizenship to young ice dancing athletes, simply doesn't rank very high. Playing Devil's Advocate here for the moment, it's not like their accomplishments/ potential accomplishments have any wider, lasting importance to the country beyond themselves and the very limited, very insular figure skating world. Athletes winning medals, even Olympic ones, have a feel-good quality for the rest of us but it's not remotely comparable to handing out an extraordinary ability visa to say, a leading researcher on the cusp of cancer cures. At least the US has a path to citizenship for the Christinas of the world, though she may not like the long process. That's more opportunity for the Olympics for the foreign-born than places like Denmark, or Japan.

Christina's timing is unfortunate in that the current mood of the country at large (not limited to just this Administration) is to be much stingier with all types of visas and to stop handing them out like Halloween candy. And to flip the paradigm around from "What can We do For You?" to "What are You Really Bringing to Our Table?" Because USCIS has wide discretion and latitude to interpret their own rules, I doubt if her suit will gain much traction.

Said it before, I'll say it again: The IOC could in one fell swoop, put a stop to all of this expenditure of time, money, and angst, by eliminating the citizenship requirement, or offering alternatives for mixed-country partnerships/teams.

 

[Dobre]

Thank you, yes. That's what I thought. There's no big advantage, timewise, in switching Federations then as they likely wouldn't both gain a release and gain his citizenship for Canada prior to 2022. Best wishes to Christina in winning the appeal; but either way C&P have a future in the sport. It just may be on a delay. And that is a possibility you know exists when you form an international partnership.

 

[sap5]

Said it before, I'll say it again: The IOC could in one fell swoop, put a stop to all of this expenditure of time, money, and angst, by eliminating the citizenship requirement, or offering alternatives for mixed-country partnerships/teams.

I'd like to see the IOC deal with the wasteful expenditure of time and money on building new Olympic venues first.

 

[Lara111]

Thank you, yes. That's what I thought. There's no big advantage, timewise, in switching Federations then as they likely wouldn't both gain a release and gain his citizenship for Canada prior to 2022. Best wishes to Christina in winning the appeal; but either way C&P have a future in the sport. It just may be on a delay. And that is a possibility you know exists when you form an international partnership.

They can skate for Russia. I am sure Russian government will give her citizenship in a very expedite manner

 

[Dobre]

They can skate for Russia. I am sure Russian government will give her citizenship in a very expedite manner

And get passed over by Morozova & Bagin for Rostelecom.

Edit: In all seriousness, USFSA would still have to choose to release C&P in time. (It's as likely as Russia releasing Drozd to come skate for the U.S. Not likely. Meanwhile, think of all the lost competitive skating experience while the team had to wait).

 

[Dobre]

Updating the list with teams that have received a YY for the rocker portion of the pattern in international competition:

Guignard & Fabbri at Skate America and Lombardia.
The Parsons at the Asian Open and Lake Placid International.
McNamara & Carpenter at Skate America, Nepela, and Lake Placid International. (M&C had YYYY for both portions of the pattern).
Turkkila & Versluis at Nepela.
Tessari & Fioretti at Nepela.
Muller & Dieck at Nepela.
Wang & Liu at Autumn Classic. (Wang & Liu had YYYY across the first part of the pattern).
Carreira & Ponomarenko at Nebelhorn. (C&P had YYYY across the first part of the pattern).
Gilles & Poirier at Nebelhorn.
Kaliszek & Spodyriev at Skate America.
Koch & Nuchtern at the International Halloween Cup. (K&N had YYYY across the first part of the pattern).

Note: Zagorski & Guerreiro didn't get the YY for the rocker, but they earned YYYY across the second part of the pattern.

McNamara & Carpenter now have the highest levels for the pattern as they are the first team to earn Level 4 on both portions.

 

[starrynight]

Looking at the protocols for the rhythm dance, although McNamara/Carpenter got the level 4s for both the patterns, the GOE meant that it didn't put them ahead in the technical score for the elements.

For example, Hubbell/Donohue's level 2 pattern earned more points than McNamara/Carpenter's level 4.

It's not as quite a good comparison, because H/D are much higher ranked than M/C and deserve the higher GOE.

However, I am certain we will see a controversy on this with the top ranked teams where level 2s or 3s etc outscore level 4s at big competitions.

It's a good example of the issues people have with ice dance though. Although McNamara/Carpenter are hitting the best tech in the world it won't mean they will score or rank higher. Because any edge they have with elements just gets erased with the GOE to ensure status quo is maintained until they can get momentum to move up the rankings.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

McNamara and Carpenter’s rockers are brilliant, the entry edge is so clear for the both of them.

 

[Dobre]

It's a good example of the issues people have with ice dance though. Although McNamara/Carpenter are hitting the best tech in the world it won't mean they will score or rank higher. Because any edge they have with elements just gets erased with the GOE to ensure status quo is maintained until they can get momentum to move up the rankings.

Ah, but this is dance, and dance is a journey. First you show that you deserve the scores. Then you show that you can do it again.

And then you get the scores.

All these young teams have some proving to do, and I'm afraid the new system may make it harder for teams to move up. But there are Challenger wins and GP medals available this season. As teams start to earn those placements, I think the huge gap between the established teams and the less established ones is likely to narrow.

 

[aliona22]

Another point that I haven't seen made yet: In the scheme of the country's priorities (if you were to poll a large cross-section of Americans), handing out extraordinary visas and fast-tracking green cards/citizenship to young ice dancing athletes, simply doesn't rank very high. Playing Devil's Advocate here for the moment, it's not like their accomplishments/ potential accomplishments have any wider, lasting importance to the country beyond themselves and the very limited, very insular figure skating world. Athletes winning medals, even Olympic ones, have a feel-good quality for the rest of us but it's not remotely comparable to handing out an extraordinary ability visa to say, a leading researcher on the cusp of cancer cures. At least the US has a path to citizenship for the Christinas of the world, though she may not like the long process. That's more opportunity for the Olympics for the foreign-born than places like Denmark, or Japan.

This is really true... and the situation today in dance is very different than it was for Tanith. Without Tanith and Ben in Torino, the US was not getting an Olympic medal in dance. At every Olympics since then though, the US had 2-3 teams capable of making a run at the podium. As much as I love Christina and Anthony's skating, I don't think their participation in Beijing is required for team USA to win a dance medal.

 

[Lara111]

Looking at the protocols for the rhythm dance, although McNamara/Carpenter got the level 4s for both the patterns, the GOE meant that it didn't put them ahead in the technical score for the elements.

For example, Hubbell/Donohue's level 2 pattern earned more points than McNamara/Carpenter's level 4.

It's not as quite a good comparison, because H/D are much higher ranked than M/C and deserve the higher GOE.

However, I am certain we will see a controversy on this with the top ranked teams where level 2s or 3s etc outscore level 4s at big competitions.

It's a good example of the issues people have with ice dance though. Although McNamara/Carpenter are hitting the best tech in the world it won't mean they will score or rank higher. Because any edge they have with elements just gets erased with the GOE to ensure status quo is maintained until they can get momentum to move up the rankings.

It's bothering me too but may be in this case it is just general impression that a team H/D with 5.6 and 6.4 height makes on judges with their ice coverage etc.

 

[Colonel Green]

Discussing elements, the new Choreographic Character Step Sequence is a big hit with me so far. Fear/Gibson's in their free dance, right at the beginning, is probably my favourite of the ones we've seen.