The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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It is kind of weird when we know top teams are planning level four steps but only achieving like level 1 or 2 are still getting +4s and maybe 5s. Are the judges saying the unclean steps and turns are still done well? Maybe GOE is supposed to be judging the quality of steps holistically without paying any mind to cleanliness of turns. But in a sport where positive GOEs turn into negative ones when a single skater is on the cusp of rotating a triple/quad but is only a minuscule amount of degrees of being fully rotated when those GOEs would stay positive if she/he were a minuscule amount of degrees from being called short but made it just in time, maybe ice dance should be more consistent with other disciplines.
 
I am quite surprised how the icedance judges are giving out the PCS like candies. Even teams with not so great skills can get very high PCS now. I’m talking about teams like S/D and L/LG.
 
We're always going to disagree about PCS, but execution is part of the technical mark.

Meanwhile, it's amazing what the PRESSURE of opportunity will do to you. S&K start off their very first element, and say, "Here, you take it." And Gilles & Poirier go out for their very first element, and say, "No, no. You take it." Reminds me Trophee de France a couple years ago with Hubbell & Donohue, Gilles & Poirier, and Ilinykh & Zhiganshin. Last year's competition at Internationaux de France with Chock & Bates and Weaver & Poje also.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
It is kind of weird when we know top teams are planning level four steps but only achieving like level 1 or 2 are still getting +4s and maybe 5s. Are the judges saying the unclean steps and turns are still done well? Maybe GOE is supposed to be judging the quality of steps holistically without paying any mind to cleanliness of turns. But in a sport where positive GOEs turn into negative ones when a single skater is on the cusp of rotating a triple/quad but is only a minuscule amount of degrees of being fully rotated when those GOEs would stay positive if she/he were a minuscule amount of degrees from being called short but made it just in time, maybe ice dance should be more consistent with other disciplines.
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Does the GOE just look at the feet or is it a whole body assessment?

Because Hubbell/Donohue look great in whole body when they skate. They look good and confident, smooth and in character when they do a level 1 pattern. Maybe that's what the judges are grading GOE on rather than the specifics of what their edges/turns are doing.

It's possible to do a level 1 lift beautifully ... and I guess a team that looks great on the ice can skate on the wrong edge or miss steps and still look good doing it.

But then is that not overlap into PCS?

Dobre said:
We're always going to disagree about PCS, but execution is part of the technical mark.

Meanwhile, it's amazing what the PRESSURE of opportunity will do to you. S&K start off their very first element, and say, "Here, you take it." And Gilles & Poirier go out for their very first element, and say, "No, no. You take it." Reminds me Trophee de France a couple years ago with Hubbell & Donohue, Gilles & Poirier, and Ilinykh & Zhiganshin. Last year's competition at Internationaux de France with Chock & Bates and Weaver & Poje also.
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Is anyone injured? That's often what is the case when these things happen. It was the case last year at TEB / IdF etc
 
I just wonder about that. Like if a team is planning to do a level 1 or 2 step sequence and hit it then I can see it getting positive GOE, but it seems different if they are trying for a level 4 and get a level 1. It seems like there are mistakes there.
 
starrynight said:
It's possible to do a level 1 lift beautifully ... and I guess a team that looks great on the ice can skate on the wrong edge or miss steps and still look good doing it.
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So what? If you miss the positions or the difficult entry feature or the difficult exit feature, why shouldn't you get dinged for execution? Give them a +1 or a +2 for looking good and move on. That's a heck of a lot more GOE than a singles skater gets for a jump that looks good all except for a step out at the end.

VIETgrlTerifa said:
I just wonder about that. Like if a team is planning to do a level 1 or 2 step sequence and hit it then I can see it getting positive GOE, but it seems different if they are trying for a level 4 and get a level 1. It seems like there are mistakes there.
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Agreed in theory. And let's be real. None of the teams getting +3s and +4s on their step sequences are trying for a level 2 anything.

And, yes, of course Hubbell & Donohue look great doing their pattern. So +2 for looking great, and nothing more until they fix the levels. It's not like they can't do it. (OK, maybe they never get the rocker; but they still have extra plus GOE on other elements).
 
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VIETgrlTerifa said:
I just wonder about that. Like if a team is planning to do a level 1 or 2 step sequence and hit it then I can see it getting positive GOE, but it seems different if they are trying for a level 4 and get a level 1. It seems like there are mistakes there.
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It seems to me that getting higher GOE in Ice Dance is easier than getting a higher GOE in other disciplines, and that there are more features to get positives and it requires a lower percentage of those positive features to achieve a +4/+5.
 
Dobre said:
So what? If you miss the positions or the difficult entry feature or the difficult exit feature, why shouldn't you get dinged for execution? Give them a +1 or a +2 for looking good and move on. That's a heck of a lot more GOE than a singles skater gets for a jump that looks good all except for a step out at the end.
.
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I agree with you completely.

But I suppose the difference is that in singles mistakes on jumps, entry features etc are obvious and hence need to directly affect GOE.

In dance, no one can see the key points on the patterns or levels unless they are the 1% of super informed uber fans. The audience and judges just probably want the team that overall *looks the best* to win and never mind the levels.

There's examples at Skate Canada of teams getting good positive GOE on base elements that don't even qualify for a level 1.

You're right that the question is whether a team should be entitled to get high GOE on mistakes. But I don't think 'mistakes' in singles and dance were made equally.

The GOE is just another form of PCS hidden in the TES column.

I remember the rule being introduced which said judges can't give 10's in PCS where the program has a fall. That was introduced directly in response to a judging controversy. I suppose we will need to wait for something to blow up in dance for this to become an issue.

Update

As a reference tool here are the GOE factors - the only one that relates to the actual steps is 'incorrect pattern' and 'correct pattern' as one feature.

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...e-of-execution-of-pattern-dance-elements/file


NEGATIVE FEATURES/ERRORS
  1. Per each Stumble
  2. Per each Loss of Balance
  3. Poor quality and/or Laboured and/or Uncontrolled and/or Minor Errors and/or Major Error(s) (max of 2 negative features per Element)
  4. Lack of unison
  5. Does not reflect character and style of the chosen rhythm
  6. Lack of glide and flow (movement across the ice)
  7. Holds and positions incorrect and/or uncontrolled and/or variable spacing in between partners
  8. Crossing the Long Axis – exception for 2018/19: Tango Romantica Steps #3-5 and Steps #10-12 ) per each
  9. Pattern incorrect
  10. Not started on the prescribed beat (for each Section/Sequence)
POSITIVE FEATURES:
  1. Good quality - correctness, cleanness and sureness of Edges/Steps/Turns
  2. Edges deep.
  3. Smooth and Effortless
  4. Unison and oneness throughout the element
  5. Reflects character and style of the chosen rhythm
  6. Glide and flow maintained (movement across the ice)
  7. Holds and positions precise, consistent and close spacing between partners
  8. Body lines and carriage of both partners elegant.
  9. Maximum utilization of the ice surface with the correct Pattern
  10. Timing accurate 100%
To get a level 4 you need 7 - 8 positive features (no negative features/errors). Hubbell/Donohue got three +4s for the level 1 pattern. So clearly, 'pattern incorrect' as a negative feature doesn't relate to the levels or getting the steps correct.

There is also a requirement to get a +4 and +5 that 100% of Steps/Edges held for required number of beats (for both partners). I'm not sure how that relates to the levels - would love some advice from those who do know.
 
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I'm of two minds about these scoring changes in dance: Yeah, it's sketchy that the judges have so much power with GOE now and can make up for lost levels with high execution marks. OTOH, IMO in ice dance there has been a long-term problem with inconsistent (biased?) tech specialists and often wildly varying level calls from event to event.

I'm not sure two wrongs make a right, but IMO the way levels have been called in dance since forever is also rather nebulous. So...I don't know the answer what should be done, I guess.
 
Katha said:
I'm of two minds about these scoring changes in dance: Yeah, it's sketchy that the judges have so much power with GOE now and can make up for lost levels with high execution marks. OTOH, IMO in ice dance there has been a long-term problem with inconsistent (biased?) tech specialists and often wildly varying level calls from event to event.
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When the levels suddenly drop I always wonder:

1. Is this just a cursed event like the ones where all the men fall on their jumps and everyone is just bombing the pattern? Ice dancers aren't all magically consistent I'm sure.

2. Is the tech caller just being a biatch?

3. Were the teams always getting these levels and the other tech callers just being soft?

At Skate Canada I think that lots of teams getting really distracted trying to avoid crashing into the boards must have affected the levels.
 
Don't know about the judging. But for me there should be even more space between H/D and everybody else. Also positions of S/D and S/K should be reversed. I understand that the latter is faster but they lack finesse.

EDIT: I love the polish of Anastasia, they just need time and more drive. But I also wish that Kiril could get more into it artistically.
 
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I don't think GOE should be strictly tied to accuracy of key points. That's one component of dance, but there's a lot of others: unison, spacing, posture, feel of the rhythm, flow, etc. If we looked at old compulsories of Torvill/Dean, Grishuk/Platov, Anissina/Peizerat, would they be getting the highest levels? And weren't they amazing dancers?

I share the concerns that judges will use positive GOE to prop up their favorites, but the old way where levels were worth more also led to bizarre results., e.g., skaters like Kaliszek/Spodyriev who hit the edge correctly while the rest of their bodies were messy getting higher scores than skaters who were better in every other way who missed the level. It's a tough balance.
 
When you look at the protocols for a TR level 1 and a TR level 3, with about the same GoE, H/D got only 0.80 points more with the TR3. It was mostly the same last year, the difference in Base Value between the levels are not high enough in dance. (5.35 for level 1 and 6.35 for level 3)
GoE are not the only problem here.
 
i think if Ice Dance is a sport the ability to execute level 3-4 pattern in RD as well as 3-4 level in the steps must be a pre-requisite for the podium. I am not sure how to make it happen though. I think we already see the results of this judging. it is impossible to watch 1/2 of the group's patterns- they stay a mile from each other, their bodies are not aligned, it is almost impossible to understand what pattern they are doing. Technical abilities should be valued much higher starting from lower levels. We see the same at Junior levels - why try so hard learning all the edges and right steps when you can get by with confident body movements. It is very difficult to do the right edge/steps and skater focusing on it may be missing in the body movement part.
 
kittysk8ts said:
You can see it in the K & C. At SA everyone was seemingly dumbfounded trying to figure out the scores as well.

Friendly reminder that Canada just legalized Cannabis. Hahahahaha. Just kidding!
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Interestingly I think this scoring makes sense to people like me who do not see a lot of highly technical problems. i this placing at Canada was just right to my eye.
 
Lara111 said:
Interestingly I think this scoring makes sense to people like me who do not see a lot of highly technical problems. i this placing at Canada was just right to my eye.
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Yup, I’m not having any issues with results so far. Just still trying to figure out how they are getting there. I was only teasing. But lots of them do seem confused, seems it’s to be a process for all of us.
 
kittysk8ts said:
Yup, I’m not having any issues with results so far. Just still trying to figure out how they are getting there. I was only teasing. But lots of them do seem confused, sometimes it’s to be a process for all of us.
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I was surprised with G/P placement but they were off yesterday and not just because of the fall. Something did not work there for them.
 
Lara111 said:
I was surprised with G/P placement but they were off yesterday and not just because of the fall. Something did not work there for them.
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I wasn’t surprised at the score. They/she fell on the pattern. They however, were shocked at the score as evidenced by Piper’s “What???” When the scores came up. I am however gutted for them. Tracy Wilson, whom I love, said she thought their score overly harsh. I don’t know though.
 
kittysk8ts said:
I wasn’t surprised at the score. They/she fell on the pattern. They however, were shocked at the score as evidenced by Piper’s “What???” When the scores came up. I am however gutted for them. Tracy Wilson, whom I love, said she thought their score overly harsh. I don’t know though.
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Did she say "What?" I was just watching it on YouTube and didn't hear it. Just saw her cover her mouth.
 
I wonder why GOE isn't calulated as a percentage of Base Value as it is in singles. A +4 on a L1 pattern would be plus 40 percent of 5.35, a +4 on a L4 would be plus 40 percent of 6.85. It may still be imperfect, but it would be a scenario of checks and balances between the callers and judges.

It doesn't have be in 10 percent increments that correspond with the number of the GOE, but I'm finding this new method to be easy to explain to casual fans, which really makes me side-eye Tara and Johnny.
 
laviemn said:
I wonder why GOE isn't calulated as a percentage of Base Value as it is in singles. A +4 on a L1 pattern would be plus 40 percent of 5.35, a +4 on a L4 would be plus 40 percent of 6.85. It may still be imperfect, but it would be a scenario of checks and balances between the callers and judges.

It doesn't have be in 10 percent increments that correspond with the number of the GOE, but I'm finding this new method to be easy to explain to casual fans, which really makes me side-eye Tara and Johnny.
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Different technical committees that come up with these rules - this is one where it would have been nice if they would have coordinated.
 
I think this is such a good discussion, guys. I'm thinking maybe we should cut & paste and move it into the main forum. (Sylvia suggested starting a new thread there earlier--about analyzing the new rules, and not everyone who has ideas or knowledge about the rules and dance reads the threads in the trash can). I can't imagine why one wouldn't want to enter a thread in which "we're all off our rocker's," but you know . . .;). It feels like we've had some valuable discussions about the evolution of the new rules while we've been watching things play out. And there are some good ideas here. Maybe there might be even more in the main forum? What do you think? Or would it just be more of a hassle to have the conversation running in one more place?

starrynight said:
There is also a requirement to get a +4 and +5 that 100% of Steps/Edges held for required number of beats (for both partners). I'm not sure how that relates to the levels - would love some advice from those who do know.
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100% of Steps/Edges as a requirement. To me, that means level 4. But the judges aren't watching 100% of steps/edges. That is the tech panel's job. It's impossible for one person to watch both the man & the lady 100% of the time. And even more impossible for the judges to spend the entire time watching every step & edge when they are also supposed to mark execution for every element and watch the program as a whole in order to score all the different categories of PCS.

So at the least, I think the judges need to see the final levels so they know this team hasn't met the requirement for a +4, +5. And also this team has met it--they've earned the correct steps bullet point.

The rules are new to everyone. It's going to take time to adapt & adjust as we near the Olympics. But this seems like an obvious fix that is already within the current rules and could be implemented right now.



Lara111 said:
Interestingly I think this scoring makes sense to people like me who do not see a lot of highly technical problems. i this placing at Canada was just right to my eye.
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I don't disagree with the placements at all. But we're not arguing the placements at SC. I don't think anything would have changed in the placements here if the GOE was more closely connected to the levels. The GOE and scores, though, might have been markedly different. And these scores as well as all the other ones are going to ultimately be used for tie-breakers and GP qualifying scores next season. Plus, we're here at the start of the season. There is going to be a whole lot more on the line down the road so this is a very good time to have this discussion, I think.
 
Lara111 said:
i think if Ice Dance is a sport the ability to execute level 3-4 pattern in RD as well as 3-4 level in the steps must be a pre-requisite for the podium.
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Wouldn't this set a bomb off though? lol McNamara/Carpenter are still the only team on the GP circuit so far to get level 4s for both patterns. Zagorski/Guerreiro got a level 4 for one section too. That's it so far.

I think you'd get a lot of angry fans who would look at the overall package and be scratching their heads. After all, until the protocols came out everyone was cheering on H/D for being so technically strong. The overall package looks fantastic. No one can see the level 1 until the scorecard points it out.

I think we'd get some massively unexpected results by teams that would surprise us with their ability to hit the steps without necessarily having the whole overall package.

Was it the case in the old compulsory dances that the judges were more concerned about the overall package than the precision of the steps? I'm suspecting that's how we had an Olympics where if judged by todays standards no team would have got a level 4 on one of the tango romantica sections ... due to that rocker.

I am just so looking forward to see how Papadakis/Cizeron get scored in the rhythm dance and what they do with their GOE. Because P/C are sure candidates to get +4 and +5 GOE straight across the board and they will be a very interesting case study on how GOE interacts with the levels on the elements.
 
We all knew this was coming with the extended GOE ranges. For the past four seasons with PCS being so close and teams gettng +2s and +3s on their elements, the tech panel had so much power in determining results and all the footwork sequences and everything were done in a way to make sure the panel saw the edges. Now, the power balance has been equalized somewhat or a bit more balanced towards the judges.
 
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