The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Anyasnake]

This talk about upcoming Juniors makes me think about Hawayek/Baker. A lot of people thought they could be the next big thing and beat Maddie & Zach and only 4 years later they manage to go to worlds only because their teamates WD. Sometimes it's just not fair to skate for a country in particular. US, RUS, CAN... You have potential top 10 teams who cannot go to Worlds for years.
Wonder if H/B ever thought about skating for Team GB. It's now or never though. Probably never.
Also Mcnamara/Carpenter and the Parsons - what is the future for them if US Top 3 doesn't retire ? Even if only one of them do ? (H/D already aim for 2022, C/B said they wanted to go on, only Shibs are a question mark but they are strong enough to skip a season perhaps ?).
CAN will have 4 strong teams (at least) going for 3 spots (hopefully) at Worlds and in Beijing 2022.

If anyone looked at Stepanova/Bukin PCS at Euros : 36+ and 55+. That's very close to H/D. They are going as RUS no.1, but they have to reclaim 3 spots at some point. I don't think they can do this this year.

 

[Lara111]

This talk about upcoming Juniors makes me think about Hawayek/Baker. A lot of people thought they could be the next big thing and beat Maddie & Zach and only 4 years later they manage to go to worlds only because their teamates WD. Sometimes it's just not fair to skate for a country in particular. US, RUS, CAN... You have potential top 10 teams who cannot go to Worlds for years.
Wonder if H/B ever thought about skating for Team GB. It's now or never though. Probably never.
Also Mcnamara/Carpenter and the Parsons - what is the future for them if US Top 3 doesn't retire ? Even if only one of them do ? (H/D already aim for 2022, C/B said they wanted to go on, only Shibs are a question mark but they are strong enough to skip a season perhaps ?).
CAN will have 4 strong teams (at least) going for 3 spots (hopefully) at Worlds and in Beijing 2022.

If anyone looked at Stepanova/Bukin PCS at Euros : 36+ and 55+. That's very close to H/D. They are going as RUS no.1, but they have to reclaim 3 spots at some point. I don't think they can do this this year.

I do not understand why H/B do not switch to GB.

 

[aftershocks]

I would have put all three Russian teams above the others and this is may be what will happen tomorrow - we will see. Greens, even though good, really faded in comparison to other top teams. I am not sure what it is - their childishness, choreo - not sure. I am not a fan of Canadians even though I see that they dance - just not my team. Anthony - I am not a big fan of their choreo and I do not buy their performance either. They are also quite a bit mismatched to my eye.

I don't see that all the emulating of Pap/Ciz the Russian teams are doing is going to necessarily pay off long term. Teams have to find their own unique style and aesthetic, not try to copy and manufacture what they think the judges are most likely to reward. Of course in general, Russians (especially pairs and ice dance, and now ladies) tend to always be given some extra cache/ respect in the scoring due to tradition, politics, and in the case of ladies: baby ballerina buzz and jumping consistency.

 

[chapis]

About L/L, I think he is great, but she is not, at all. But I am not impressed by Christina Carreira either. And I am not seeing the Russians emulating to P/C, I think their styles are completely different.

 

[Anyasnake]

I don't see that all the emulating of Pap/Ciz the Russian teams are doing is going to necessarily pay off long term. Teams have to find their own unique style and aesthetic, not try to copy and manufacture what they think the judges are most likely to reward. Of course in general, Russians (especially pairs and ice dance, and now ladies) tend to always be given some extra cache/ respect in the scoring due to tradition, politics, and in the case of ladies: baby ballerina buzz and jumping consistency.

If anything we saw for the last years, when you find your uniqueness and most importantly use it, you have a shot at winning. The winners usually have that uniqueness.
And there are so many great Russian skaters and dancers, they should have a voice (okay still a bit controlled not go overboard at first).

 

[aftershocks]

Wonder if H/B ever thought about skating for Team GB. It's now or never though. Probably never.

Right, likely never, unless they begin to not see a way through in the U.S. over the next couple of years. Jean Luc was born and raised in America. The Shibs and Mirai never seriously considered a switch to Japan either, I don't think. And Ash Cain has never considered Canada or Australia as options, because she wants to skate for the country where she was born and raised.

 

[Lara111]

I don't see that all the emulating of Pap/Ciz the Russian teams are doing is going to necessarily pay off long term. Teams have to find their own unique style and aesthetic, not try to copy and manufacture what they think the judges are most likely to reward. Of course in general, Russians (especially pairs and ice dance, and now ladies) tend to always be given some extra cache/ respect in the scoring due to tradition, politics, and in the case of ladies: baby ballerina buzz and jumping consistency.

The only team which is emulating Pap/Ciz style was Anthony. I do not see any emulating by Russian teams at all.

 

[aftershocks]

The only team which is emulating Pap/Ciz style was Anthony. I do not see any emulating by Russian teams at all.

Tee hee, you really must look more closely then. It's popping out all over the place among many of these young teams. And yes, even Anthony employed that bent knee spread eagle move that a lot of the guys have lifted from Guillaume's signature move. I see all the Russian teams copying that smooth, angular, flowing movement style of P/C with similar partner interaction. It caught my eye straightaway. Undeniably.

C/P don't exactly move in that same way, so I see less copying by them. And L/L don't copy as much either as they appear to have their own budding style (as do the Greens who are still fairly young), but as I said many of the guys seem to be patterning themselves after Guillaume. I understand why. He's the sexiest and greatest ice dancer on the planet.

 

[aftershocks]

About L/L, I think he is great, but she is not, at all. But I am not impressed by Christina Carreira either. And I am not seeing the Russians emulating to P/C, I think their styles are completely different.

It doesn't matter that styles, bodies and personalities are different. In fact, these young teams are still exploring what their styles are anyway -- they are young and raw. Meanwhile, there is a definite copying of the moves and aesthetic of P/C, which understandably younger teams wish to emulate. That's not a surprise. Everyone emulates champions to some degree. The key is not getting lost in that emulation to the point where you can't find what makes you special.

Every young team dreams of making the huge leap P/C made in one season from 13th to 1st in seniors. Obviously, that's a rare once-in-a-lifetime feat due to P/C's extraordinary gifts and to the magic that came together when Haguenauer moved P/C with him to Montreal to collaborate with D/L.

What junior ice dance lady does 'impress' you btw, @chapis.

 

[chapis]

It doesn't matter that styles, bodies and personalities are different. In fact, these young teams are still exploring what their styles are anyway -- they are young and raw. Meanwhile, there is a definite copying of the moves and aesthetic of P/C, which understandably younger teams wish to emulate. That's not a surprise. Everyone emulates champions to some degree. The key is not getting lost in that emulation to the point where you can't find what makes you special.

Every young team dreams of making the huge leap P/C made in one season from 13th to 1st in seniors. Obviously, that's a rare once-in-a-lifetime feat due to P/C's extraordinary gifts and to the magic that came together when Haguenauer moved P/C with him to Montreal to collaborate with D/L.

What junior ice dance lady does 'impress' you btw, @chapis.

I understand to want to emulate whatever thing is working, it is natural, the coaches are not stupids, but I am not seeing it, exactly what moves are you talking about? Esthetic? if anything, I think S/A were trying to emulate to V/M.

I am impressed by Shpilevaya/Smirnov, they are my favorite junior team, I am disappointed that they are not competing here.

 

[Lara111]

I understand to want to emulate whatever thing is working, it is natural, the coaches are not stupids, but I am not seeing it, exactly what moves are you talking about? Esthetic? if anything, I think S/A were trying to emulate to V/M.

I am impressed by Shpilevaya/Smirnov, they are my favorite junior team, I am disappointed that they are not competing here.

S/S free dance this year was great.

 

[Anyasnake]

Shpilevaya/Smirnov are one of the strongest Junior teams. Will they be in Seniors next season are or they still eligible for Juniors ? Their injury was really bad timing, they could have snatched that Junior title...

 

[chapis]

Shpilevaya/Smirnov are one of the strongest Junior teams. Will they be in Seniors next season are or they still eligible for Juniors ? Their injury was really bad timing, they could have snatched that Junior title...

I think they are not eligible for juniors the next season, Grigory will turn 21yo on April 1.

 

[Rafter]

It's not the Canadian judge that made the difference here, nor was it the wardrobe malfunction. Look at the scores P/C got in the SD from USA, Ukraine, France, Turkey, Russia, and Italy all have them ahead in the PCS. Overall, they were 4 points ahead of the Shibs and H/D and less than two points behind V/M. The judges were perfectly willing to turn a blind eye or mark them as leniently as possible.

Completely agree with the last sentence. Most of the judges did turn a blind eye to P/Cs mistakes.

What cost P/C was that the tech panel docked a level off their pattern and that the Japanese judge decided she wasn't going to be rewarding that lift or that performance. She also gave V/M a perfect score in the FD with P/C 1.7 points behind.

Papadakis had a mistake in the pattern on a turn, the tech panel had no choice but to drop it a level.

What’s obvious though, is the ISU tried hard to give P/C the OGM.

 

[Anyasnake]

What’s obvious though, is the ISU tried hard to give P/C the OGM.

The ISU must have have had a meeting in a dark room, with voodoo dolls of Virtue/Moir wearing their Hip Hip Chin Chin costume, covered in needles and surrounded by candles. "No OGM for you", they said. Didier was here, president of the meeting, dressed as a Death eater and Leanna Carron was crying in her hometown back in Canada because she wasn't invited. She swore to make them pay by politicking hard enough to have Nicole Kidman and Ewan McGregor singing Come What May at the next Super Bowl.

Chill, if this was the case it would have been easy to give a 120 to V/M in the FD, a reminder that they had a massive 4 point-jump in one week. If this were P/C, your reaction would have been heard on Neptune. The Olympics are over, get over it.

 

[Debbie S]

I do not understand why H/B do not switch to GB.

I believe it is very difficult to get British citizenship if you aren't born there and don't live there. Jean-Luc could get it but Kaitlyn likely couldn't. Which would mean no Olys.

H/B have only been seniors for 4 seasons and honestly, until this year, they really didn't look ready to go to a Worlds or Olys - in 2016 and 2017, they were 5th at Nats, the latter year due to 3 falls. Even this season, they struggled with consistency on the GP. Hopefully, winning 4CC will boost their confidence and they can perform like a top 10 team at Worlds.

 

[RoseRed]

I agree that the transistions from Juniors to Seniors has been very tough for all these years with the Russian teams. But sometimes the packaging isn't there. And you cannot rely on what you had in Juniors because the difference in skills between best Juniors and best Seniors is the Pacific Ocean (unlike single skaters where The JW champ from last year is the actual Olympic Gold medallist). You have to step up your game so drastically it can be too much for some.

Take Stepanova/Bukin for example, they are still using some of the same tricks they used as Juniors. He'll throw her around, it's very gymnastic centered, she'll do crazy split to show that she's flexible. In Juniors you think that this is impressive, in Seniors nobody cares too much about that. You have to dance at this point - that's my main issue, they almost don't dance, they do movements. But they started to understand because they kind of stopped using this trick (Ben Agosto noticed that too) and focus on their skating which is miles better this year, they've stepped it up big time.

Loboda/Drozd are another issue because they actually do have the basics, they just don't use it properly. Not everybody gets Pattern level 4, but they do. But Pavel seems to be the one with the creative mind (looking at social medai), it'll be nice for them to skate to something they both connect to and he could play a part in this.

And then you have this thing called behaviour. Russia was going to have a team who would dominate big time and they messed it up by splitting at the worst moment (read I/K). And then they pair up with someone else by splitting another team and 4 years later, 2 of them are gone, the 2 others haven't make it because you need stability, no matter how good you are.

Aren't his basics much better than hers? She didn't look very strong this season at least. I wonder though about the packaging. Obviously this season was much worse, but even last year, they had that Spanish program that didn't really feel Spanish at all to me. And wasn't the point of that program that he had studied Spanish and loved the culture and stuff? But I don't think that really showed at all.

 

[Anyasnake]

Aren't his basics much better than hers? She didn't look very strong this season at least. I wonder though about the packaging. Obviously this season was much worse, but even last year, they had that Spanish program that didn't really feel Spanish at all to me. And wasn't the point of that program that he had studied Spanish and loved the culture and stuff? But I don't think that really showed at all.

Looking at what they do both on step sequences, I see that she has the basics as well (and quite good), even if he is better it's not where the difference really occurs to me : he has such a great presence and great moves. But she isn't a good dancer... at all, for me. It's like she does what she's told to do and that's it. It's her upper body that needs to be doing more to me.
I agree it didn't show at all last year. But between last year and this year, I don't really like any of their programs They have to keep looking for more I guess.

 

[maya1985]

What’s obvious though, is the ISU tried hard to give P/C the OGM.

Of course but for more success in their goal, the ISU should have not allowed the presence of a judge (and/or president)
V/M are still victim of something

 

[Twilight1]

People can be in denial all they want BBC Eurosport discussed the backroom politiking after V&M skated their SD at the GPF.

At the 3:56min mark
https://youtu.be/faDqyLO4i-Y

And then it was discussed AGAIN at the Oly Gala (BBC Eurosport)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wv3Vf6ZBtXTADV7aXPcC7s0mOX8if4yF/view

But please tell us how it is all made up...

 

[Anyasnake]

People can be in denial all they want BBC Eurosport discussed the backroom politiking after V&M skated their SD at the GPF.

At the 3:56min mark
https://youtu.be/faDqyLO4i-Y

And then it was discussed AGAIN at the Oly Gala (BBC Eurosport)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wv3Vf6ZBtXTADV7aXPcC7s0mOX8if4yF/view

But please tell us how it is all made up...

Politicking isn't made up, it's here. Saying that V/M are victims of it against P/C when they had a +4 point jump in a week (and from their PB) is a mockery. It would have been so easy to make P/C win after the FD. As if V/M are not profiting from that politicking, especially with their reputation.
All year P/C have skated better and certainly deserved the higher scores. Not at the Olympics and they didn't.

 

[muffinplus]

Politicking isn't made up, it's here. Saying that V/M are victims of it against P/C when they had a +4 point jump in a week (and from their PB) is a mockery.

The 4 points jump was because the step sequences got L4 finally...compared to L3 in TE.

 

[Twilight1]

Actually they were marked down on their one lift for team when they changed it hence the change back.

In addition, their were changes in several areas of their program from music to retouches to different parts of the choreography. (GPF to Oly's)

So the marks adjusted accordingly.

They are supposed to mark what happens on the ice right or does past performance come into play?

Because if it does, one could just as easily argue that the error on the twizzles and lift by P&C in their SD should not dictate a mark so close to their personal best at the Oly's.

And I have been pretty up front saying politics played a role. They ALWAYS do... but people want to be in such denial of political play of French.

Why is that?

Very hypocritical.

 

[chapis]

Politicking isn't made up, it's here. Saying that V/M are victims of it against P/C when they had a +4 point jump in a week (and from their PB) is a mockery. It would have been so easy to make P/C win after the FD. As if V/M are not profiting from that politicking, especially with their reputation.
All year P/C have skated better and certainly deserved the higher scores. Not at the Olympics and they didn't.

But it was obvious that the scoring was more strict on the Team event, we don´t know if P/C would be getting the same + point jump too. Alex said: We are happy that we got a better score at the Individual event (SD), but we skated exactly the same as Team event. P/C are not skating different but they are breaking records at each competition with only a few weeks of difference. Honestly, I think they were more strict in the Team Event because they did not want that V/M to overshadow P/C, they wanted to make it clear that the favorites for gold were the French team.

 

[Anyasnake]

But it was obvious that the scoring was more strict on the Team event, we don´t know if P/C would be getting the same + point jump too. P/C are not skating different but they are breaking records at each competition with only a few weeks of difference. Honestly, I think they were more strict in the Team Event because they did not want that V/M to overshadow P/C, they wanted to make it clear that the favorites for gold were the French team.

Honestly those Rumba calls were correct in the TE, and V/M last Key Point was correctly done in the individual because they corrected it. The judges weren't that strict, it was the tech Panel.
Protocols competition after competition shows that P/C have been scoring quite the same since GPF included, difference is in levels. Everytime you add a +1.5 you actually end up with the same score. At Olys if you take 1.5 points from their FD you end up with the same Euro score. There was a couple of modifications made to ensure level 4 it doesn't have to be drastic.
And gain they could have been way stricter in the SD in the individual event to V/M if they wanted to. That would have been easy to switch a +3 for a +2, or a level 3 on one of the No-touch since they got that twice in a row. There was litterally a hundred way.

 

[Twilight1]

So do you admit that political play was both sides or was it just evil Kanadians?

Are you also saying that BBC Eurosport commentators (with no ice dance horse in the race) was lying at the Oly gala showing?

 

[Anyasnake]

So do you admit that political play was both sides or was it just evil Kanadians?

Are you also saying that BBC Eurosport commentators (with no ice dance horse in the race) was lying at the Oly gala showing?

I never said evil Canadians... I did say that politicking was for everyone. Both sides, and everybody's side actually. High ranked teams, lower ranked teams.
I just very much disagree with the post saying that the ISU wanted P/C to win or bust.

Also those BBC commentators have said that there was politicking but not that it would be 100% French to ensure Canadians would lose. What I understood is that there was business everywhere. Plus it's not like GPF win was underserved - they said it was...
These are the same commentators that said that the Shibutanis political machine was on at Worlds 2016. I didn't pick up on it. But if you want politics, go watch the French version, because they speak behind the scenes politics all the time, the BBC commentators aren't the only one. No surprise there.

 

[chapis]

Honestly those Rumba calls were correct in the TE, and V/M last Key Point was correctly done in the individual because they corrected it. The judges weren't that strict, it was the tech Panel.
Protocols competition after competition shows that P/C have been scoring quite the same since GPF included, difference is in levels. Everytime you add a +1.5 you actually end up with the same score. At Olys if you take 1.5 points from their FD you end up with the same Euro score. There was a couple of modifications made to ensure level 4 it doesn't have to be drastic.
And gain they could have been way stricter in the SD in the individual event to V/M if they wanted to. That would have been easy to switch a +3 for a +2, or a level 3 on one of the No-touch since they got that twice in a row. There was litterally a hundred way.

so, V/M getting lower scoring is correct, Shibs low scoring is correct, P/C breaking records competition after competition is correct, basically you have defended the scoring, judges and technical panels all season, but now V/M getting +4 of difference is a mockery, okay, I get it.

 

[Anyasnake]

so, V/M getting lower scoring is correct, Shibs low scoring is correct, P/C breaking records competition after competition is correct, basically you have defended the scoring, judges and technical panels all season, but now V/M getting +4 of difference is a mockery, okay, I get it.

Okay this is a total misunderstanding. My words are being twisted or I did not express myself correctly :

I never said V/M +4 points was a mockery AT ALL. One poster said ISU wanted P/C to win. I said, if so, why V/M are getting +4 since it would have been so easy to put a level down? Never said it was underserved (I don't even think it), because they actually got +3 just on Base Value. I said that was the reason that statement was a mockery, not V/M score.

V/M got lower score because of the Rumba. V/M in the SD in Base Value got level 2 + level 3 in No-touch, that's 2.70 points. At GPF they got 81.50ish - 1.20 (Rumba lvl2) = 80.30. They got 80.50 ish. Almost the same if not for levels that they actually fixed in the individual. If you add all the numbers it makes their 83+ score in the SD. It's the Tech Panel, not the judges. (Plus at GPF they called out lvl 3 at first but upgraded).

You have to look at protocols, I'm almost feeling like one of those uber trying to defend something I certainly didn't say. I'm the one saying that I wouldn't have given P/C those scores in the twizzles.

EDIT : same for the Shibs, they got +1.5 thank to a level in the No-touch, and actually the whole No-touch was even upgraded in GOEs. Maybe they caught something we didn't on camera in the TE.

 

[synian]

People can be in denial all they want BBC Eurosport discussed the backroom politiking after V&M skated their SD at the GPF.

At the 3:56min mark
https://youtu.be/faDqyLO4i-Y

And then it was discussed AGAIN at the Oly Gala (BBC Eurosport)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wv3Vf6ZBtXTADV7aXPcC7s0mOX8if4yF/view

But please tell us how it is all made up...

Do you have the free danses for the last group commented by eurosport besp