The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[chapis]

Didn't they denied WeaPo when they wanted to change coaches ? That's understandable though... CAN#1 and #2 plus FRA#1 and USA#3 would have been too much.
And strategically I'll take "younger" teams with potential so that your camp has longevity instead of having "empty" seasons. I can see 2 or 3 teams in Gadbois who looks polished (1 GBR and 2 CAN).

I had no idea, I read rumours about that W/P went with Marina and they leaving because they did not like it.

 

[Nmsis]

About future retirements in ice dance

- 1st criteria IMHO is : Will P/C take the end of the season off ? a year off ? 2 years off ? Retire ? Or go on for a complete olympic cycle ?
I don't see the oldest teams staying for the pleasure of competing. There must be room to satisfy a career-long ambition for them to stay after Olys. And they won't know that until at least the Olympics, if not post-Worlds. That will delay the final decisions IMO, except for the teams who already know.

- 2nd criteria : Do they feel the threat of young dancers of their own country possibly rising and overcoming them during the next cycle ? IMHO, the last thing WeaPo or ChoBat want is being stuck between a rock and a hard place again. That is also true for other teams such as the Shibs, HubDon, BobSol, GilPo ... There is going to be blood in the US, in Russia and also in France during the next cycle. That's inevitable and those teams won't want to be on the losing side so they are going to seriously assess their chances for the next cycle.

 

[skategal]

I'd like to see H/B move to Gadbois.

 

[GreenGan]

Wasn't the reason why DLH turned down W/P is because they didn't have place or time for them ? Also I'd like to see Z/G training in Gadbois. I think Tiffany Zahorski worked with Haguenauer when she was in Lyon.
But I think they should give a chance to their coach too. They're better here than when they were with Zhulin.

 

[Nmsis]

I'd like to see H/B move to Gadbois.

I'm curious what the situation in Detroit will be by the end of the season, start of next.
I don't want Krylova and / or Camerlengo away from the top level.
I hope they / she / he keep/get a good junior/senior couple to work with.

 

[Rafter]

One thing about ice dance this season, was outside the top 3 seeds, there was some drama who would make the final. We even got to use math for the 5 and 6th seed.
correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been a while since 24 points got the 5th seed into the final and with math?
I'm excited that 1-2 for the Os will be decided on the ice again, and the top 9 could all have a chance for bronze. But it is looking like we have some awesome front runners for the bronze. H&D, S&B, W&P (if they can get healthy and work on issues), Shibs, C&L, Bukin (long shot), C&B (they will need to change those programs. Their lifts are great, but they are making a great case of being USA 3).
Nationals will be interesting in the US because any 3 could win. Canada, V&M will win, but will Wepo be healthy enough to beat Piper and Paul (they need a lot of work on their programs), Russia nationals B&S and now Bukin. Very outside chance is Viknik.
Lots of up and comers for the next quad. H&B, P&P, the US has a very deep field coming up. So sad about Canada. The top 3 are so solids, the rest deserted. Russia has a pretty good field. But they only concentrate on a select few teams.
It will be interesting for retirements this year. I expect C&B, C&L, V&M, W&P, B&S, Smart (I'm sure she will find another partner) and Diaz, Combs and Buckland, Tobis (married and to work with charities per the family she has married into) to retire.
Unknown retirements, H&D(they are both 26. They might stay a year or so, but funding is very hard to stay in Canada. FYI get your stockings. They are beautiful https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/AndAllThruTheHouse?)ref=search_shop_redirect, Viknik, Chris Reed, Shibs (but I think Miai may stay if she can find the right partner). Shibs may stay a year or 2 more for a world championship.

Feel free to add to my list.

I don’t understand your point about Hubbell and Donohue. The Canadian dollar is very favourable for them if they are paying for ice, coaching and living accommodations with the US dollar. Certainly a lot easier financially for them to train in Canada than a Canadian team to train in the US.

 

[Rafter]

yes, I think C/P or Chock/Bates will move to Montreal.

I could be wrong but I don’t see Dubruiel and Lauzon taking on Chock and Bates.

 

[Debbie S]

I don’t understand your point about Hubbell and Donohue. The Canadian dollar is very favourable for them if they are paying for ice, coaching and living accommodations in the US dollar. Certainly a lot easier financially for them to train in Canada than a Canadian team to train in the US.

Zach mentioned in one of their vlogs that training in Canada is a challenge for them financially b/c they are not able to work to earn money to contribute to their training.

I would be very surprised if either Chock/Bates or Carreira/Ponomarenko left Igor, but I suppose nothing in skating would shock me, lol.

 

[Emilia12]

Wasn't the reason why DLH turned down W/P is because they didn't have place or time for them ? Also I'd like to see Z/G training in Gadbois. I think Tiffany Zahorski worked with Haguenauer when she was in Lyon.
But I think they should give a chance to their coach too. They're better here than when they were with Zhulin.

WeaPo were never denied by Gadbois because they never tried to get there. I don't know where this rumor started, but it's just not true. They do discussed training options with Marina and some other coach in US, but chose Morozov, mainly because he was the one who had them on top of his priorities

 

[CassAgain]

I thought it was Carol Lane who would not take in Weaver and Poje because of Gilles and Poirier.

 

[Amantide]

^^^^^ Right?? I need to understand this if I continue investing myself in dance.

If this program merits a 101, than all the others in this group except for P&C should be around 97-98 points.

I think they need smth bold to stand out. It is obvious that the judges aren't "seeing" them. As good as they might be in the execution of their element, they seem characterless, colourless. Idk how to explain...they come out as a bit flat. They need smth peculiar, smth original.

 

[RoseRed]

Teams that I know of at Gadbois right now by age

- Virtue/Moir (28/30)
- Fournier Beaudry/Sorenson (25/28)
- Hubbell/Donohue (26/26)
- Smart/Diaz (20/27)
- Robledo/Fenero (22/24)
- Papadakis/Cizeron (22/23)
- Soucisse/Firus (22/23)
- Lauriault/Le Gac (21/22)
- Lee/Kam (20/21) (ETA they split)
- Fear/Gibson (18/23) *
- Fukase/Tateno (20/20)
Juniors
- Lajoie/Lagha (17/18)
- Fisher/Mallette-Paquette (16/19)
- Fear/Waddell (15/19) *

* Train part time in England with Karen Quinn and part time in Montreal with Romain

 

[Areski]

I think they need smth bold to stand out. It is obvious that the judges aren't "seeing" them. As good as they might be in the execution of their element, they seem characterless, colourless. Idk how to explain...they come out as a bit flat. They need smth peculiar, smth original.

As much as I enjoyed Guignard / Fabbri ... I have to say that there's something that rings true in your observations. At least this is a big step forward imo from their Schindler's List two seasons ago ... do you remember his striped uniform costume?

They also stopped making those obvious errors that were disturbing them in the past.

 

[Amantide]

As much as I enjoyed Guignard / Fabbri ... I have to say that there's something that rings true in your observations. At least this is a big step forward imo from their Schindler's List two seasons ago ... do you remember his striped uniform costume?

They also stopped making those obvious errors that were disturbing them in the past.

Yep, they've been pretty consistent in the last 2 seasons. A couple of years ago I went to watch them training. Although I was distracted by Barabara I enjoyed it. But yeah, I wish their programs were smth different. I consider them better skaters than C&L, but CL have a lot of personality. Always a bubbling personality maybe, but nevertheless, it's always out there for the judges to see.

 

[firstflight]

I think they need smth bold to stand out. It is obvious that the judges aren't "seeing" them. As good as they might be in the execution of their element, they seem characterless, colourless. Idk how to explain...they come out as a bit flat. They need smth peculiar, smth original.

Well that’s the thing that’s still frustrating about judging though— what you talk about would result in lower PCS. But since judges still just try to rank the teams, they use both PCS and GOE to do so. G/F’s GOE scores are linked to their placement right now.... mostly 1’s and 2’s with a smattering of 0’s. Only one 3 in the FD.

 

[mysticchic]

I am going on the rumors that are going around in Detroit for the retirements.
H&D I know there are issues about working. The visa's they have is for training only. They don't have work visas. If they get work visas, they would have to pay income tax to both Canada and the US. Housing is very expensive there. Then ice, coaching, off ice training and on and on. Neither family has a lot of money. Both Mom's work to make it possible for them to keep going. Prize/show money is very limited and is used to pay for training. Right now Madi is without a car due to the lease expired. This was their 1st year with SOI and it was very limited. They have yet to find a sponsor.
Madi and her mom came up with the stockings as a way to raise funds and give something back, They are also embroidered with what name you want on them. The material comes from pieces Sue and Madi find from around the world, That's why most are limited to only 4 of each one.
For them to be able to stay, funding will need to be found.
Up in Montreal, it will come down to what opening and who will fit in and where. They want to be able to do the best for who they have and not over extend themselves. They are very considerate and loyal to their skaters that are there now and what is the best interest for them.
I don't see C&P leave Igor.
Some of the teams will make the final decision at worlds. But I know of at least 2 teams came back after Sochi on the condition of 4 more years only. As far as I know, that hasn't changed.
There has been some speculation of a coach moving or retiring out of the area. It's been talked about for a couple of years now.

 

[Amantide]

Well that’s the thing that’s still frustrating about judging though— what you talk about would result in lower PCS. But since judges still just try to rank the teams, they use both PCS and GOE to do so. G/F’s GOE scores are linked to their placement right now.... mostly 1’s and 2’s with a smattering of 0’s. Only one 3 in the FD.

I know and that's frustrating. But unfortunately that's the reality, and not just in Dance tbh. It sucks.

H&D I know there are issues about working. The visa's they have is for training only. They don't have work visas. If they get work visas, they would have to pay income tax to both Canada and the US.

Why is that? How does it work over there?
I'm Albanian but live and work in Italy. I only pay taxes here though.

 

[sap5]

WeaPo were never denied by Gadbois because they never tried to get there. I don't know where this rumor started, but it's just not true. They do discussed training options with Marina and some other coach in US, but chose Morozov, mainly because he was the one who had them on top of his priorities

Dave Lease started this rumor. I have never heard it confirmed by anyone else.

 

[binbinwinwin]

- Lee/Kam (20/21)

Lee and Kam have split, Hojung retired and is now coaching in Korea.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I am going on the rumors that are going around in Detroit for the retirements.
Housing is very expensive there. Then ice, coaching, off ice training and on and on. Neither family has a lot of money. Both Mom's work to make it possible for them to keep going. Prize/show money is very limited and is used to pay for training. Right now Madi is without a car due to the lease expired. This was their 1st year with SOI and it was very limited. They have yet to find a sponsor.

I'm a little puzzled about your comment about housing being expensive there. After the election last year, and at times since then when I've daydreamed of running away to Canada, I've looked into different Canadian cities where I might be able to put my advanced STEM degree to good use. Montreal does have some expensive options, but overall, I saw a lot of apartments that were both nice and super reasonably priced and budget-friendly, especially when you factor in the favorable exchange rate and splitting the rent with someone else (as Madi and Zach don't live alone).

I'm a little less sympathetic to the lack of car. From everything I've read and been told, living in Montreal, pretty much the worst way to try to get around is by car. Given the traffic, you're better off taking public transport or walking. The only time you really need a car is to leave the city, and that's what rentals are for. I can't remember the exact name right now, but there's also a ZipCar-like service if you just need a car for the afternoon to make a Costco run. No one I know who lives in the city has their own car because it's just more hassle than it's worth. Not even my big city-dwelling friends who make 6-figure salaries have their own cars.

It is frustrating that they don't have a sponsor yet, but maybe that will change after the Olympics once they've had the exposure. Not having been to a games yet and with the lack of skating coverage in more mainstream media, they are still basically unknowns outside of die-hard skating fandom. They do have an inspiring story with Madi fighting through what could have been a career-ending injury to rise to the top of their sport.

 

[barbarafan]

I could be wrong but I don’t see Dubruiel and Lauzon taking on Chock and Bates.

Interesting about Chock Bates. She has skating skills problems. Is that something that a coach can fix? Any teams at the top who do not have strong skating skills seem to slowly improve but only to a point. I can't see them taking it on.

 

[mysticchic]

I know and that's frustrating. But unfortunately that's the reality, and not just in Dance tbh. It sucks.



Why is that? How does it work over there?
I'm Albanian but live and work in Italy. I only pay taxes here though.

I live right outside of Detroit and i have friends who work in Canada. My Grandparents also lived part time in Canada (my grandma was a citizen) and my Grandfather worked in Detroit. You are expected to file a tax return for both the US and Canada. One person assumed they only had to file in the US and got into tax trouble later.

On housing. I know when they 1st moved up there they had a very hard time finding something that was central to the rink, off ice work outs, dance, and many other things. But when you live on a very small budget, I'm sure whatever it is when you can't work is going to be considered expensive. There is physio therapy that isn't covered by insurance.
At this level of skating, it's not cheap. Schedules are tight and not all skaters skate at the same time. One group will be on the ice, while the other group is doing off ice at a gym, another group maybe at a dance studio, while another group is getting physio.
Some rinks have everything under one roof. DSC does, but it took years to get it to that point. I think Canton does also,but they are also a recreation facility for a city. Novi (last time I was out there, had rooms, but no equipment).

 

[Dobre]

I would think that Carreira & Ponomarenko need to reside in the United States until she obtains U.S. citizenship, provided they plan to continue competing as a U.S. dance team.

I do not think Nazarova & Nikitin are a Dubreil & Lauzon type of team. At all. They are much too quirky and character-oriented. Bourzat is a good fit for them, IMO.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, I can see. They are still developing a style. Perhaps D&L's would suit them. I don't know.

Shpilevaya & Smirnov definitely fit the D&L look, though they seem to be very well packaged this season by their current coach, IMO.

 

[RoseRed]

I live right outside of Detroit and i have friends who work in Canada. My Grandparents also lived part time in Canada (my grandma was a citizen) and my Grandfather worked in Detroit. You are expected to file a tax return for both the US and Canada. One person assumed they only had to file in the US and got into tax trouble later.

On housing. I know when they 1st moved up there they had a very hard time finding something that was central to the rink, off ice work outs, dance, and many other things. But when you live on a very small budget, I'm sure whatever it is when you can't work is going to be considered expensive. There is physio therapy that isn't covered by insurance.
At this level of skating, it's not cheap. Schedules are tight and not all skaters skate at the same time. One group will be on the ice, while the other group is doing off ice at a gym, another group maybe at a dance studio, while another group is getting physio.
Some rinks have everything under one roof. DSC does, but it took years to get it to that point. I think Canton does also,but they are also a recreation facility for a city. Novi (last time I was out there, had rooms, but no equipment).

Gadbois is also a public recreation centre. They have two rinks, with private ice 7:30 am to 4:30 or 5:00 pm according to Madi and Zach's Youtube video. I know Madi and Zach (as well as Smart/Diaz) do their workouts at the attached gym. Other couples use other gyms nearby. For example, Tessa and Scott workout at P2 as a part of the B2Ten program. I believe all the off ice dance training is at the facility.

Also from Madi and Zach's series of Youtube videos, they work with both physiotherapists and osteopaths. The Canadian athletes would probably be able to get at least some of that covered through health insurance, but I don't know if they can.

I would think that Carreira & Ponomarenko need to reside in the United States until she obtains U.S. citizenship, provided they plan to continue competing as a U.S. dance team.

I do not think Nazarova & Nikitin are a Dubreil & Lauzon type of team. At all. They are much too quirky and character-oriented. Bourzat is a good fit for them, IMO.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, I can see. They are still developing a style. Perhaps D&L's would suit them. I don't know.

Shpilevaya & Smirnov definitely fit the D&L look, though they seem to be very well packaged this season by their current coach, IMO.

I've heard there are rumours (maybe from the Russian forums) that there's friction between the parents and coaches, so they might actually be looking for a change. Of course, moving to Montreal isn't necessarily what they have in mind.

I also agree that I don't see C/P moving for several reasons: they're doing well with their current arrangement, Anthony parents are apparently friends with Igor, and her citizenship situation. She is from Montreal though, and French is her first language. Her former partner Simon Pierre trains there now.

 

[UMBS Go Blue]

Gadbois is also a public recreation centre. They have two rinks, with private ice 7:30 am to 4:30 or 5:00 pm according to Madi and Zach's Youtube video. I know Madi and Zach (as well as Smart/Diaz) do their workouts at the attached gym. Other couples use other gyms nearby. For example, Tessa and Scott workout at P2 as a part of the B2Ten program. I believe all the off ice dance training is at the facility.

Also from Madi and Zach's series of Youtube videos, they work with both physiotherapists and osteopaths. The Canadian athletes would probably be able to get at least some of that covered through health insurance, but I don't know if they can.

All of that might be true, but there are still lots of expenses involved. Literally a laundry list of them, even if their training situation means that most things are conveniently located at the Gadbois complex. When you don't have lots of income besides an exceptionally modest amount of prize money and limited tour appearances, a huge, yawning gap opens up quickly, no matter how relatively cheap any one item (including housing) might seem, or how advantageous the Canadian dollar currently is over the U.S. dollar.

Overall, while things might be relatively inexpensive for them in Montreal, I shudder to think at how Madi and Zach probably wouldn't be able to make it, even if they worked their a**es off at side jobs, if they were training somewhere expensive like the New York area or the Bay Area.

As for Madi and Zach's work situation, I've heard that the rules for foreigners attempting to find work in Quebec are far more complicated than those in other Canadian provinces, such that the process to apply for a work visa in Quebec is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being a "skilled" worker with a job offer in hand helps with the process. I'm not sure if "skating coach" - say, if Madi and Zach were to find a "job offer" for a side gig teaching kids how to skate - counts under Quebec's criteria.

 

[caseyedwards]

Interesting about Chock Bates. She has skating skills problems. Is that something that a coach can fix? Any teams at the top who do not have strong skating skills seem to slowly improve but only to a point. I can't see them taking it on.

Wasn’t Linichuk good for Belbin is skating skills.

I would think that Carreira & Ponomarenko need to reside in the United States until she obtains U.S. citizenship, provided they plan to continue competing as a U.S. dance team.

I do not think Nazarova & Nikitin are a Dubreil & Lauzon type of team. At all. They are much too quirky and character-oriented. Bourzat is a good fit for them, IMO.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, I can see. They are still developing a style. Perhaps D&L's would suit them. I don't know.

Shpilevaya & Smirnov definitely fit the D&L look, though they seem to be very well packaged this season by their current coach, IMO.

Even if a team thinks they are being well served by their current coaches if you can move to dubreuil you should! No matter what!

 

[Anyasnake]

I am truly not used to saying such things... but I wonder if Chock/Bates should go back to Under Pressure. I know it's "only" their 2nd outing with the FD, but it seemed not entirely right. I mean it is quite... okay, but not for Olympics, or even US nats. This doesn't highlight them enough and it could be reflected very much on their PCS. And they do not look as trained as some others, it's odd...
Not only that but Under Pressure was so awesome, and Imagine feels somehow flat a bit. If they're planning on continuing after 2018, I'd go back to that FD and save Imagine for another year.
It's not a twizzle issue or anything. But they look somewhat late this season. They won the FD at Nats last year so...

 

[cocotaffy]

I am truly not used to saying such things... but I wonder if Chock/Bates should go back to Under Pressure. I know it's "only" their 2nd outing with the FD, but it seemed not entirely right. I mean it is quite... okay, but not for Olympics, or even US nats. This doesn't highlight them enough and it could be reflected very much on their PCS. And they do not look as trained as some others, it's odd...
Not only that but Under Pressure was so awesome, and Imagine feels somehow flat a bit. If they're planning on continuing after 2018, I'd go back to that FD and save Imagine for another year.

But, unless my memory plays trick on me, it's not as if Under Pressure was such a hit for them though. If they had success with an FD, it was with their Rachmaninov at Boston or even their American in Paris FD. Also Shpilband looked truly clueless and a bit lost tbh in the K&C. Something is up in that rink. I mean how is it that C/B, a team skating their second quad together, having so much experience and needing to prove so much at this point after last season where they kept messing up, present themselves so unprepared both in the SD (those levels ) and the FD (they look lost). 108.30 for the FD is like 2014 type of scores. They're going backwards. Mainly, as fun and lovely people as they seem to be, they don't have an artistic point of view. It doesn't even look as if they have so much input into the creation process. Their team are making really uninspired choices as a result and aren't able to channel C/B's strengths to kind of mold an identity for them, if that makes sense.

 

[Anyasnake]

@cocotaffy It does make absolute sense actually. I think not doing a senior B for them was a mistake : They are not as consistent as the Shibs who didn't do one (or technically as good) and needed to prove themselves a bit more after their FD at worlds.
Their Rach had received critics all season (they kept changing it) but they had a wondeful moment at worlds (113+). I just think Under Pressure will stand out a lot among the rest. Imagine doesn't.
But they've had to go after big guns at some competition, and they still delivered and it was noticeable. They're not "lucky" to have skated the FD twice after a WR in their last 2 GPs for sure, but instead of getting the energy back (they know how to do it normally) it fell flat. And it doesn't suit them as much as UP.
As a lot of team seems to look so trained and polished, they don't and it's weird. A 72 SD and a 108 FD won't do it for them, it's way too low.

 

[Miloune]

But, unless my memory plays trick on me, it's not as if Under Pressure was such a hit for them though. If they had success with an FD, it was with their Rachmaninov at Boston or even their American in Paris FD. Also Shpilband looked truly clueless and a bit lost tbh in the K&C. Something is up in that rink. I mean how is it that C/B, a team skating their second quad together, having so much experience and needing to prove so much at this point after last season where they kept messing up, present themselves so unprepared both in the SD (those levels ) and the FD (they look lost). 108.30 for the FD is like 2014 type of scores. They're going backwards. Mainly, as fun and lovely people as they seem to be, they don't have an artistic point of view. It doesn't even look as if they have so much input into the creation process. Their team are making really uninspired choices as a result and aren't able to channel C/B's strengths to kind of mold an identity for them, if that makes sense.

Or maybe it's also that the judges found other worthy americans to reward with good scores. Like for W/P with V/M.
I mean of course they have levels issues, which is weird, but it's more than that isn't it? It just seems that now they're "not enough" anymore.
Personally, and I know this is harsh but, I never found C/B worthy of the results they got in 2015 and 2016.
Maybe the judges are realising that too?