The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Anyasnake]

Or maybe it's also that the judges found other worthy americans to reward with good scores. Like for W/P with V/M.
I mean of course they have levels issues, which is weird, but it's more than that isn't it? It just seems that now they're "not enough" anymore.
Personally, and I know this is harsh but, I never found C/B worthy of the results they got in 2015 and 2016.
Maybe the judges are realising that too?

I feel like in worlds 2015 and 2016 they REALLY rose to the occasion and the placement were correct.
There is a bit of that playing in there too : how do you explain to a team : "Well you're USA #3 now" without lowering their scores ? But even in the SD : the pattern isn't really big or deep, their Pst could use a ton more polishing, and I feel like they are jumping from a cliff going on to the twizzles, they're too hesistant. Compare that to Shibs technical abilities and cleanness or H/D who have great elements and... it's not as good.
Their lifts are great though.
But on the technical they were some times where I found them better before. Just like with WeaPo.
WeaPo for me really went backwards when V/M announced their comeback. It wasn't a case of CAN #2 at all, their elements didn't look the same, they looked sloppier than before, they seemed to have lost confidence and it showed.

 

[cocotaffy]

You probably right, they're definitely not at the technical level of the Shibs who have been improving consistently and who are trying really hard to project an image and develop a vision of what they want to express. Plus now H/D are finally fulfilling their potential (I hope not to jinx them ), it doesn't help them. Still, they are very unprepared for a top team esp. in the SD. FD, they had to scrap LLL and so I get the late preparation. But SD should have been nailed, their last year SD was much sharper than this. Anyway, not that I mind, they're nice people I enjoy seeing goofing around but I've never liked them so much as skaters. I'm just surprised.
Now, I can't wait to see what the Shibs and C/L will bring this week. C/L had a rough SD skate imo and little time to polish it but the Shibs had plenty of time to rework in depth. Their schedule was brilliant, first GP then a good month later last one. Excellent timing for them.

Reading your post now @Anyasnake , it's exactly that, it looks like they went backwards like W/P. Oh well, they have 2/3 weeks to get everything sorted before GPF

 

[MarieM]

Chock&Bates were injured this summer from what I've heard, so they are way behind the others in preparation. But IMO, that FD will work despite the horrid vocals.

 

[cocotaffy]

Chock&Bates were injured this summer from what I've heard, so they are way behind the others in preparation. But IMO, that FD will work despite the horrid vocals.

Ok, that would explain then. Still not convinced about the FD though too soft and lyrical for them.

 

[skategal]

If H&D are in Canada on a visitors visa (and I assume they are) they would have to pay for all their own health care expenses too or buy private insurance to cover it.

 

[barbarafan]

Wasn’t Linichuk good for Belbin is skating skills.



Even if a team thinks they are being well served by their current coaches if you can move to dubreuil you should! No matter what!

in Mtl lots are using outside choreographers as well. Some close at hand. I am not sure NN are much of a priority at Igors. Both Fabien and Igor were with C/B in France and a woman I do not recognize was with NN in Poland.

 

[allezfred]

They also had Abachkina/Thauron in Grenoble.

 

[barbarafan]

They also had Abachkina/Thauron in Grenoble.

So why didn't the woman go to Grenable and Fabien go to Poland. He is the one they are always with.

 

[Debbie S]

They also had Abachkina/Thauron in Grenoble.

And Pogrebinsky/Benoit. With 3 teams vs 1, I can understand why 2 coaches would go to France. And Fabian seems to be a 'co'-head coach for A/T. Igor was with N/N at NHK.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I don't particularly enjoy Chock/Bates usually but I like their FD this year, instead of Evan Bates presents Madison Chock they actually look like a partnership, I think it's quite nice. If it is true that they were injured then that probably pushes back their progress for the season, making the GPF should give them a confidence boost. Under Pressure it seemed like their were forcing some of their elements to fit the music (eg the twizzles) to avoid cutting it. I thought it was a breath of fresh air amongst the lyrical FDs last season but I found myself enjoying it less and less as the season went on. Madison made too many faces for me.

 

[lauravvv]

Sorry, deleted post.

 

[chapis]

Chock&Bates were injured this summer from what I've heard, so they are way behind the others in preparation. But IMO, that FD will work despite the horrid vocals.

Agree, that FD will work, I think in France they were being cautious to get that pass to GPF, plus they seemed nervous. Although I am surprised that they have not chosen a romantic theme, their new FD is a program seems fit more the style of the Shibs.

And I am thankful at least they did not choose that horrible Imagine version of Avril Lavigne

 

[marbri]

I feel like in worlds 2015 and 2016 they REALLY rose to the occasion and the placement were correct.

There is a bit of that playing in there too : how do you explain to a team : "Well you're USA #3 now" without lowering their scores ? But even in the SD : the pattern isn't really big or deep, their Pst could use a ton more polishing, and I feel like they are jumping from a cliff going on to the twizzles, they're too hesistant. Compare that to Shibs technical abilities and cleanness or H/D who have great elements and... it's not as good.
Their lifts are great though.
But on the technical they were some times where I found them better before. Just like with WeaPo.
WeaPo for me really went backwards when V/M announced their comeback. It wasn't a case of CAN #2 at all, their elements didn't look the same, they looked sloppier than before, they seemed to have lost confidence and it showed.

That's a bit of revisionist history because V/M announced AFTER the results of the ice dance competition at 2016 Worlds they were returning and W/P´s worlds competition results between Sochi and then were:
2014: second (only .02 off gold) with arguably their strongest FD Maria
2015: third (two points behind silver, 5 points behind gold) with Four Seasons that had mixed reviews
2016: fifth (3.5 points behind bronze, 6 points behind silver, 12 points behind gold) with This Bitter Earth that had many critics. I loved their original Bitter Earth costumes and all but it got a lot of negative reaction and comments that they changed it up and imo it lost what it's intention and feel by the time worlds rolled around.

In 2017, with VM on the scene, they were fourth only 0.4 from bronze.

The reality with W/P, when you look at who they placed around all those years above, is that the judges had them ranked the same as Cappellini/Lanotte, Chock/Bates, Bobrova/Soloviev. If you look at the numbers they were always very close with those teams with fractions putting one above the other. They have never been viewed on the same level as teams like V/M and P/C. I'd even argue that their strongest programs they have ever done were when they were competing with V/M. I also think their judging marks so far suggest that they are in the running for grabbing a bronze, like a handful of other teams, if they deliver when others don't.

As for Chock/Bates, there may well have been an injury which could further explain their state. There were rumours they worked on THREE different FD´s in the off season but as I imagine they kept the same elements throughout an injury could explain their level issues. Or a loss of confidence because it has to affect your confidence to be so unsure of your FD in a season like this. Honestly they should have just gone back to American in Paris and adjusted it as W/P did with Je suis Malade because if both teams are sinking in a sea of uncertainty those programs I think showed each at their best and who they were so it might give them the same confidence boost that W/P got. at any rate I only watched Imagine once and had no desire to see it again. A similar reaction as I had to W/P's Spartacus as I felt neither program really showcased the strengths of either team.

 

[sap5]

Wasn’t Linichuk good for Belbin is skating skills.

I thought she was, but by the time Belbin moved there, there wasn't enough time to make the improvements needed. Plus those programs were just terrible.

 

[sap5]

Btw, what was it that Charlie White said about Weaver/Poje? I see people saying he said something about an injury, but I'm not sure what it was?

 

[Rafter]

That's a bit of revisionist history because V/M announced AFTER the results of the ice dance competition at 2016 Worlds they were returning and W/P´s worlds competition results between Sochi and then were:
2014: second (only .02 off gold) with arguably their strongest FD Maria
2015: third (two points behind silver, 5 points behind gold) with Four Seasons that had mixed reviews
2016: fifth (3.5 points behind bronze, 6 points behind silver, 12 points behind gold) with This Bitter Earth that had many critics. I loved their original Bitter Earth costumes and all but it got a lot of negative reaction and comments that they changed it up and imo it lost what it's intention and feel by the time worlds rolled around.

In 2017, with VM on the scene, they were fourth only 0.4 from bronze.

The reality with W/P, when you look at who they placed around all those years above, is that the judges had them ranked the same as Cappellini/Lanotte, Chock/Bates, Bobrova/Soloviev. If you look at the numbers they were always very close with those teams with fractions putting one above the other. They have never been viewed on the same level as teams like V/M and P/C. I'd even argue that their strongest programs they have ever done were when they were competing with V/M. I also think their judging marks so far suggest that they are in the running for grabbing a bronze, like a handful of other teams, if they deliver when others don't.

As for Chock/Bates, there may well have been an injury which could further explain their state. There were rumours they worked on THREE different FD´s in the off season but as I imagine they kept the same elements throughout an injury could explain their level issues. Or a loss of confidence because it has to affect your confidence to be so unsure of your FD in a season like this. Honestly they should have just gone back to American in Paris and adjusted it as W/P did with Je suis Malade because if both teams are sinking in a sea of uncertainty those programs I think showed each at their best and who they were so it might give them the same confidence boost that W/P got. at any rate I only watched Imagine once and had no desire to see it again. A similar reaction as I had to W/P's Spartacus as I felt neither program really showcased the strengths of either team.

I thought VM announced their return to competition during 2016 4CCs?

 

[thvu]

That's a bit of revisionist history because V/M announced AFTER the results of the ice dance competition at 2016 Worlds...

Uh, no. The announcement happened before Worlds 2016. It happened February 20, 2016.

http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2016/2/20/virtuemoir-announce-intent-to-return-with-new-coaches

At Worlds 2016, many people were talking about V&M's return, and how it possibly affected W&P's PCS (from leading the pack after P&C before V&M's announcement, to just part of the pack with everyone after P&C after the announcement).

 

[kittysk8ts]

I thought VM announced their return to competition during 2016 4CCs?

The announcement was in February 2016. So, before Worlds, yes.

 

[Rafter]

I thought it was Carol Lane who would not take in Weaver and Poje because of Gilles and Poirier.

I don’t think W/P have ever wanted anything to do with Carol Lane coaching them.

 

[Rafter]

I too was disappointed about Gabbri/Guignard results, especially their PCS. They are polished, fast, great twizzles. I don't get it. They've made steady progress and frankly I think they have better SS than C/L. They might need to get better programs though. Muse is a bit bland, they have a lot of personality.

I think one of their biggest problems is they are mismatched physically.

 

[Rafter]

Lots of up and comers for the next quad. H&B, P&P, the US has a very deep field coming up. So sad about Canada. The top 3 are so solids, the rest deserted. Russia has a pretty good field. But they only concentrate on a select few teams.
It will be interesting for retirements this year. I expect C&B, C&L, V&M, W&P, B&S, Smart (I'm sure she will find another partner) and Diaz, Combs and Buckland, Tobis (married and to work with charities per the family she has married into) to retire.
Unknown retirements, H&D(they are both 26. They might stay a year or so, but funding is very hard to stay in Canada. FYI get your stockings. They are beautiful https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/AndAllThruTheHouse?)ref=search_shop_redirect, .

Dubreuil and Lauzon have two promising Canadian junior teams FYI.

Those are some pricey stockings Hubbell’s mother is selling. They show as almost $420 Cdn for a set of 4.

 

[aka_gerbil]

delete

 

[levineismine]

All of that might be true, but there are still lots of expenses involved. Literally a laundry list of them, even if their training situation means that most things are conveniently located at the Gadbois complex. When you don't have lots of income besides an exceptionally modest amount of prize money and limited tour appearances, a huge, yawning gap opens up quickly, no matter how relatively cheap any one item (including housing) might seem, or how advantageous the Canadian dollar currently is over the U.S. dollar.

Overall, while things might be relatively inexpensive for them in Montreal, I shudder to think at how Madi and Zach probably wouldn't be able to make it, even if they worked their a**es off at side jobs, if they were training somewhere expensive like the New York area or the Bay Area.

As for Madi and Zach's work situation, I've heard that the rules for foreigners attempting to find work in Quebec are far more complicated than those in other Canadian provinces, such that the process to apply for a work visa in Quebec is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being a "skilled" worker with a job offer in hand helps with the process. I'm not sure if "skating coach" - say, if Madi and Zach were to find a "job offer" for a side gig teaching kids how to skate - counts under Quebec's criteria.

Re. the skilled worker work permit, if you already have a job offer from Quebec and show that you meet the criteria, you can get a fast work permit in under 2 weeks, for certain job categories only (in the NOC scale 0 and A, no clue if their situation fits). Unfortunately, I guess the double tax system could take a toll on whatever they would earn on the side, and the work on the side would take a toll on their training too (both time and fatigue). I don't think any of the very top ice dance teams at the moment have to work to pay for their expenses?
It's true that life in Mtl is relatively inexpensive, but I guess their major costs are not the living costs but the training, gym, physio, etc.

I hope this is their true breakthrough season and they get exposure with the Olympics, pick up some sponsors and get invited to shows. We are only beginning to see what they are capable of (and I'm sure they know it too), that we would miss out on so much if they retire. I hope their financial situation improves and we get to enjoy them at least for another couple of years.

 

[Anyasnake]

V/M made their comeback annoucement a few hours after teh 2016 4CC free dance, where W/P had a really bad skate. It went downhill from there.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Btw, what was it that Charlie White said about Weaver/Poje? I see people saying he said something about an injury, but I'm not sure what it was?

During the FD warmup, they showed Kaitlyn's tweet about her rib injury/Andrew's crash. Charlie said he understood that when things go wrong you want to explain yourselves, but he didn't think it was a good idea to do it in the middle of a competition. Thinking about mistakes, about excuses, can take you out of the competitive mindset.

 

[levineismine]

About other retirements after the Olympics:

I would say V/M, B/S, C/L for sure. C/L will end with home worlds.

C/B have said in interviews last year that they are enjoying the ride and their partnership is still relatively new. Shibs haven't said anything that I remember, but I would see them following their off ice media careers. I guess it will depend on who gets bronze at the Olympics and how hierarchies within US ice dance will look like at the end of the season.
With all the struggles that W/P had these past couple of years, I would think they will also retire. On the other hand, they could enjoy being the top Canadian team again for a season or two.
P/C are still so young and had a short senior career, that even with gold I would think they will continue (maybe with a year off).

 

[Rafter]

H&D I know there are issues about working. The visa's they have is for training only. They don't have work visas. If they get work visas, they would have to pay income tax to both Canada and the US. Housing is very expensive there. Then ice, coaching, off ice training and on and on. Neither family has a lot of money. Both Mom's work to make it possible for them to keep going.

I’m sorry but housing is not expensive in Montreal. Toronto and Vancouver, yes. Montreal, no.

Most moms work. Or are their mothers at an age where they could be retired?

I wonder if H&D could do a bit of choreography on the side for younger skaters in Montreal. Cash payment type of thing.

 

[Miloune]

During the FD warmup, they showed Kaitlyn's tweet about her rib injury/Andrew's crash. Charlie said he understood that when things go wrong you want to explain yourselves, but he didn't think it was a good idea to do it in the middle of a competition. Thinking about mistakes, about excuses, can take you out of the competitive mindset.

By the way, do we have a video of Andrew's "crash" ?

 

[Rafter]

I would think that Carreira & Ponomarenko need to reside in the United States until she obtains U.S. citizenship, provided they plan to continue competing as a U.S. dance team.

I do not think Nazarova & Nikitin are a Dubreil & Lauzon type of team. At all. They are much too quirky and character-oriented. Bourzat is a good fit for them, IMO.

Zahorsky & Guerreiro, I can see. They are still developing a style. Perhaps D&L's would suit them. I don't know.

Shpilevaya & Smirnov definitely fit the D&L look, though they seem to be very well packaged this season by their current coach, IMO.

I could totally see Nazarova and Nikitin going to D&L. D&L like skaters with good edge quality, good skating stills and Nazarova at least definitely has that. I think D&L would be really good at packaging N&N better.

 

[RoseRed]

By the way, do we have a video of Andrew's "crash" ?

On the stream I was watching it was covered by a graphic, we just heard a big bang.