The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

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VIETgrlTerifa said:
Does anyone here think Stepanova/Bukin deserved to place ahead of Gilles/Poirier. I have to admit that I reversed the opinion I had after the SD with the FD. Step/Buk were on fire in the FD and had a real flow and speed and ease of getting across the ice that Gilles/Poirier do not have.
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Me :slinkaway And it`s a pretty big step for me to admit that, because I have never liked Stepanova/Bukin. Strange how one performance can change my opinion about one team, but as you wrote they were on fire in the FD. Now, I`m curious to see how these scores will hold up during the rest of the season.
 
Me too. And Stepanova/Bukin are my least favorite Russian team right now (I even like Popova/Mozgov more than S/B, to say the truth). I don't like their FD music, don't think that some of their lifts suit that dance, still don't like Stepanova's skating (she has improved though), but they were great in the free at Rostelecom, were pretty fast, skated with great energy and deserved to be ahead of G/P. I just think that the gap between two teams shouldn't have been that big
 
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AngieNikodinovLove said:
If true there is no point of having GP or any championships really......
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Of course there is a point. With athletes that have split results internationally or finish within a spot or two at Worlds, then there is always a likelihood that a homefield advantage will tip the balance. (This is true in all disciplines when athletes have the same base value. It's just much more rare in other disciplines for athletes to have the same possible base value). In dance, the teams are so close pointwise, and everyone is gunning for the same possible base value.

BUT, homefield favorites don't always win head-to-heads when the competition plays out:

The Shibs just won at Rostelecom.
Virtue & Moir defeated Papadakis & Cizeron at the GPF in France last season.
Carreira & Ponomarenko defeated Abachkina & Thauron at the JGPF in France last season.
Davis & White defeated Virtue & Moir at Worlds in Canada.
Papadakis & Cizeron defeated the Shibs and Chock & Bates at Worlds in Boston.
The Shibs and Weaver & Poje bested Bobrova & Soloviev and Ilinykh & Katsalapov at the 2011 Worlds in Russia.
Ilinykh & Katsalapov defeated Pechalat & Bourzat at the French GP four years ago.
Cappellini & Lanotte defeated the Shibs in 2014 at Skate America.

It's hard. It's rare. It's a big deal when it happens.

Why go? Because you might achieve it. And, even if you don't, you can make a statement. Many breakthroughs in dance happen before the final results come down the pipe. You show you deserve to win, and heading into the next event, the balance of power shifts. Show you can deal with the pressure. Get the experience. Learn from the feedback. Work hard and make your program even better. Everyone heads into the next competition with a different set of expectations.

At least 50% of the teams at Rostelecom missed a minimum of one element: Bobrova & Soloviev, Guignard & Fabbri, Lauriault & Le Gac, the Parsons, Agafanova & Ucar. Dance is an athletic endeavor. If anything, Worlds last year should have made it very clear that today's dance programs are very demanding, and mistakes happen to everyone. They happen quite often. Scores reflect those mistakes. And so do placements.

As for non-homefield competitions, the number of upsets is VAST. I could start a list, but it would go on a good long time. Maybe on my plane flight to Skate Canada . . .
 
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MarieM said:
Maybe Carol Lane should realise she gave them a FD that is weak at the moment and focus on making it better?
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How much has Paul improved these past few years? I remember when he first came on the senior scene, people were really impressed with his skills. I haven't paid much attention to him since honestly. My overall impression is that he's just stayed the same, and the quirkiness is the only thing distinguishing him, which isn't a good thing if its true.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Who here thinks that Stepanova/Bukin deserved to place ahead of Gilles/Poirier? I have to admit that I reversed the opinion I had after the SD with the FD. Step/Buk were on fire in the FD and had a real flow and speed and ease of getting across the ice that Gilles/Poirier do not have. Subjectively speaking, I know people praise Piper and Paul for being so concept heavy and wanting to be different but sometimes it comes off as trying too hard, especially when their performances become too self-aware of their quirk and I also think they some times sacrifice emotional depth or aren’t really capable of it. I loved their Hitchcock and enjoyed their disco SD (when they debuted it), enjoyed their Beatles revamped SD at 2016 Worlds, and liked the idea of their 2015-2016 FD, but I don’t find myself really feeling anything from their programs or their skating. As cheesy as Step/Buk’s FD is I can honestly say I felt something from it. Honestly, addressing Piper and Paul’s skating would be a lot more constructive than just saying “well, it’s Russia.” I know all coaches and skaters have felt something similar before even in domestic competitons where there may be domestic politics going on, but those teams that rise take it and keep working at it with persistence.
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Carole Lane has been shooting down opponents and oozing praise for her fav. students for several yrs. I noticed it first when H/D first came to mtl to train and her comments were out of line. I feel she is a brilliant choreographer but when it comes to Paul Poirier she has lost all perspective. Since they dumped Vanessa Crone (who had great skills & beautiful world class movement)the problems started. I started off really liking the pairing Of G/P because she was athletic & couldn't understand their low marks. I read then from the supposed experts that Piper did not have good skating skills & that is why they scored low. She has worked very hard to improve but her skills are still nowhere near Paul's which are top of the line. The other problem is the lack of chemistry between Piper and Paul. It seems that they have been taking acting lessons but in their new short dance Piper was making all kinds of faces that just looked weird. As far as their free dance is concerned it is a great concept for them because it does not call for chemistry just like their Hitchcock(which I loved).If they build on it their scores will grow. B/S do both have good skating skills and S/B are really improving & I had them ahead of B/S in the free dance. Piper might be confused about their marks as although our cdn international judges seem to be right in the middle scorewise and fair some of our cdn domestic judges suck big time. At challenge last December all the judges gave G/P marks in the 9's and one judge went right down the line and gave them 9.75 all the way. I almost didn't watch nationals because of this but it was not the same judges at nationals and their marks were more normal but still high.
 
sap5 said:
How much has Paul improved these past few years? I remember when he first came on the senior scene, people were really impressed with his skills. I haven't paid much attention to him since honestly. My overall impression is that he's just stayed the same, and the quirkiness is the only thing distinguishing him, which isn't a good thing if its true.
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IMO Paul and Vanessa showed such amazing skating skills for such a young couple. I tend to favour skaters with really good basics (Chan, Kostner, Virtue Moir etc...) and they excited me. They also showed something different and fresh from the other teams they skated against. Now that Paul skates with Piper I find they just have quirk going for them and he hasn't really grown to his full potential, IMO, because she doesn't have his ability so he hasn't needed to improve. I did love their FD last season and thought they were going to prove me wrong and then they came out with that FD.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Who here thinks that Stepanova/Bukin deserved to place ahead of Gilles/Poirier? I have to admit that I reversed the opinion I had after the SD with the FD. Step/Buk were on fire in the FD and had a real flow and speed and ease of getting across the ice that Gilles/Poirier do not have. Subjectively speaking, I know people praise Piper and Paul for being so concept heavy and wanting to be different but sometimes it comes off as trying too hard, especially when their performances become too self-aware of their quirk and I also think they some times sacrifice emotional depth or aren’t really capable of it. I loved their Hitchcock and enjoyed their disco SD (when they debuted it), enjoyed their Beatles revamped SD at 2016 Worlds, and liked the idea of their 2015-2016 FD, but I don’t find myself really feeling anything from their programs or their skating. As cheesy as Step/Buk’s FD is I can honestly say I felt something from it. Honestly, addressing Piper and Paul’s skating would be a lot more constructive than just saying “well, it’s Russia.” I know all coaches and skaters have felt something similar before even in domestic competitons where there may be domestic politics going on, but those teams that rise take it and keep working at it with persistence.
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I gave them 1)shibs 2)S/B 3) B/S 4 G/P
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Who here thinks that Stepanova/Bukin deserved to place ahead of Gilles/Poirier? I have to admit that I reversed the opinion I had after the SD with the FD. Step/Buk were on fire in the FD and had a real flow and speed and ease of getting across the ice that Gilles/Poirier do not have. Subjectively speaking, I know people praise Piper and Paul for being so concept heavy and wanting to be different but sometimes it comes off as trying too hard, especially when their performances become too self-aware of their quirk and I also think they some times sacrifice emotional depth or aren’t really capable of it. I loved their Hitchcock and enjoyed their disco SD (when they debuted it), enjoyed their Beatles revamped SD at 2016 Worlds, and liked the idea of their 2015-2016 FD, but I don’t find myself really feeling anything from their programs or their skating. As cheesy as Step/Buk’s FD is I can honestly say I felt something from it. Honestly, addressing Piper and Paul’s skating would be a lot more constructive than just saying “well, it’s Russia.” I know all coaches and skaters have felt something similar before even in domestic competitons where there may be domestic politics going on, but those teams that rise take it and keep working at it with persistence.
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S/B deserve to be ahead of G/P. 100%. They should even be ahead of B/S but I guess the judges weren't prepared to make that much of a change.
 
I have a lot of respect for Carol Lane's coaching in general - the Scarborough dance teams that have been coached by her and Rasgulijevs in the past have always been very well-trained, technically very competent with good basics, and have usually and consistently had some of the most interesting choreography in Canada, if not the world. And I am definitely not a big fan of B/S by any means. However, I think Lane has absolutely no business doing commentary on national television when she has a highly-ranked team competing internationally. She should not be doing commentary even at events where they are not competing (because she would still be talking about their rivals), but she should definitely not be allowed to do commentary when they are competing in an event. It's completely biased and, quite frankly, ridiculous. I even thought something like Sandra Bezic doing Olympic commentary in Nagano when she had choreographed programs for two of the leading ladies' competitors should not have been allowed; it is even crazier when the person doing commentary is actually the main coach of one of the competing teams.

I also think that Piper and Paul are not as good as they (and clearly Lane) think they are. I agree with the posters above that their FD this season is weak and that they are overly reliant on the quirk factor to make them stand out because they (especially she) lack superior skills. I also agree with those above who thought Paul was a better and more interesting skater with Vanessa Crone. C&P set themselves apart from the field with different movement styles and interesting choreography instead of having to rely on being "quirky" to make a name for themselves.

(And yes, having said all this, I am Canadian and I still think Lane is talking nonsense!)
 
I get the bit of piling on here against G/P in reaction to the ridiculous commentary from Lane. I agree that they aren't in the top tier to contend for a medal at the Olympics.
In their defense, I do think that their tango FD from last season was one of the best translations of tango-- particularly the tension in the holds-- onto ice, and it wasn't relying on quirkiness to be effective. And probably what was most disappointing to them is that after their steady progress in increasing PCS this entire quad, they dropped back a few points in the PCS at Rostelecom Cup.
 
firstflight said:
I get the bit of piling on here against G/P in reaction to the ridiculous commentary from Lane. I agree that they aren't in the top tier to contend for a medal at the Olympics.
In their defense, I do think that their tango FD from last season was one of the best translations of tango-- particularly the tension in the holds-- onto ice, and it wasn't relying on quirkiness to be effective. And probably what was most disappointing to them is that after their steady progress in increasing PCS this entire quad, they dropped back a few points in the PCS at Rostelecom Cup.
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What disappoints me is that I am/was a fan of their skating. I thought their FD from last season and the season before that were brilliant, but all this nonsense from them and their coach is really making me not want to support them.

Also disappointed with SkatingProtocol on social media. He's becoming like TSL. Journalism at its worst.
 
I love G/P. They are by far my favorite Canadian team; I enjoy everything they've ever done. To me, they're a breath of fresh air and one of the few truly unique teams. But, the FD this year just...doesn't work. It's probably their weakest program in a LONG time. It felt flat and I know they were going for their Hitchcock vibe (and that program was brilliant), but it felt really flat. I think they may need to reevaluate. And as a big fan of theirs, I also think that their elements and skating look a bit small compared to other teams.

I don't like Stepanova and Bukin at all, but they skated really well at CoR.
 
I think everyone has probably managed to tell I love G&P.. because of their innovation in choreography and music selections. They have really gotten me into dance.

Having said that I would also give S&B the improvement of the season award already because I thought both their programs were amaze-balls too! (Heck Im REALLY getting into Dance.) So Im torn I love my husband Poirier but S&B were good and have improved...


But what do you all think about B&S..if they messed up a major element they still stayed in 2nd place..... should they not have at least fallen to bronze???? I mean if we're talking rationally and not all this home ice favorite stuff???
 
Dobre said:
Of course there is a point. With athletes that have split results internationally or finish within a spot or two at Worlds, then there is always a likelihood that a homefield advantage will tip the balance. (This is true in all disciplines when athletes have the same base value. It's just much more rare in other disciplines for athletes to have the same possible base value). In dance, the teams are so close pointwise, and everyone is gunning for the same possible base value.

BUT, homefield favorites don't always win head-to-heads when the competition plays out:

The Shibs just won at Rostelecom.
Virtue & Moir defeated Papadakis & Cizeron at the GPF in France last season.
Carreira & Ponomarenko defeated Abachkina & Thauron at the JGPF in France last season.
Davis & White defeated Virtue & Moir at Worlds in Canada.
Papadakis & Cizeron defeated the Shibs and Chock & Bates at Worlds in Boston.
The Shibs and Weaver & Poje bested Bobrova & Soloviev and Ilinykh & Katsalapov at the 2011 Worlds in Russia.
Ilinykh & Katsalapov defeated Pechalat & Bourzat at the French GP four years ago.
Cappellini & Lanotte defeated the Shibs in 2014 at Skate America.

It's hard. It's rare. It's a big deal when it happens.

Why go? Because you might achieve it. And, even if you don't, you can make a statement. Many breakthroughs in dance happen before the final results come down the pipe. You show you deserve to win, and heading into the next event, the balance of power shifts. Show you can deal with the pressure. Get the experience. Learn from the feedback. Work hard and make your program even better. Everyone heads into the next competition with a different set of expectations.

At least 50% of the teams at Rostelecom missed a minimum of one element: Bobrova & Soloviev, Guignard & Fabbri, Lauriault & Le Gac, the Parsons, Agafanova & Ucar. Dance is an athletic endeavor. If anything, Worlds last year should have made it very clear that today's dance programs are very demanding, and mistakes happen to everyone. They happen quite often. Scores reflect those mistakes. And so do placements.

As for non-homefield competitions, the number of upsets is VAST. I could start a list, but it would go on a good long time. Maybe on my plane flight to Skate Canada . . .
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Yeah, I guess....but....

Kolyada's free score? Puh-lease....4.00 in deductions and here we've upgraded you to the bronze?? lol

So then lemme ask you all do you think Mariah Bell and Christina Gao deserved their SkAm silvers or that they got them b/c of home ice advantage??
 
AquaLady said:
What disappoints me is that I am/was a fan of their skating. I thought their FD from last season and the season before that were brilliant, but all this nonsense from them and their coach is really making me not want to support them.

Also disappointed with SkatingProtocol on social media. He's becoming like TSL. Journalism at its worst.
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Funny you brought that up cause I actually reported his tweet earlier. It's all levels of rude and targets race (mocking hashtags about russia). To anyone who finds his post wrong, report it. That kinda behavior is intelorable.
 
With all due respect to Soloviev, he's a brilliant skater and she has no business commenting on an event her team is in, she showed very little professionalism, this was not the forum to debate such an issue BUT and this is a big BUT.
Sadly she is right, the scores for Russian skaters, are always beyond ludicrous at COR as evidenced by Kolyada's 3 falls in the free, yet he managed better PCS than Chen and moved up.
B/S made an error on a required element and with her basic skating and posture they should be no where near the Shibs. B/S are much closer in level to S/B, G/P and the Italians. Skaters live in their own bubble and of course B/S believe they are just as strong as the Shibs, heck Zhulin was almost trying to say B/S should be beating P/C last year because their lifts were 'much harder'.
Some comments on insta have been saying, 'well its the same thing in Canada'. Umm no it really isn't, not even close.

COR has been ridiculous since its inception, it is exacerbated by the fact that very many of the officials come from that part of the world for geographical reasons and proximity. Of course many officials from those countries travel to other Grand Prix events but rarely would a panel have the make up of COR. It tends to also happen at the European championships more.
Of course the Russians will say, ex Soviet states don't like us and don't vote for us, that's total crap. The Russian fed has enormous influence over those ex states and along the way has picked up small federations like Turkey and Israel too.

Lastly with regards to G/P, between her tweet and her coach's unprofessionalism on TV, I am sure they are going to pay the price with some of the judges this year, bad move...
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
But what do you all think about B&S..if they messed up a major element they still stayed in 2nd place..... should they not have at least fallen to bronze???? I mean if we're talking rationally and not all this home ice favorite stuff???
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Well, dropping two levels and having a negative GOE multiplier is less costly on a spin than a step sequence (3 pts in base value loss vs. the 2 pts for the spin). That’s not making any comments on whether their PCS marks were appropriate, though.

Edited to add: so total drop in points from a step sequence mistake (like P/C at Finlandia) can cost 8 points or more, while a spin mistake is more muted, like around 4-5 points.
 
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SLIVER said:
With all due respect to Soloviev, he's a brilliant skater and she has no business commenting on an event her team is in, she showed very little professionalism, this was not the forum to debate such an issue BUT and this is a big BUT.
Sadly she is right, the scores for Russian skaters, are always beyond ludicrous at COR as evidenced by Kolyada's 3 falls in the free, yet he managed better PCS than Chen and moved up.
B/S made an error on a required element and with her basic skating and posture they should be no where near the Shibs. B/S are much closer in level to S/B, G/P and the Italians. Skaters live in their own bubble and of course B/S believe they are just as strong as the Shibs, heck Zhulin was almost trying to say B/S should be beating P/C last year because their lifts were 'much harder'.
Some comments on insta have been saying, 'well its the same thing in Canada'. Umm no it really isn't, not even close.

COR has been ridiculous since its inception, it is exacerbated by the fact that very many of the officials come from that part of the world for geographical reasons and proximity. Of course many officials from those countries travel to other Grand Prix events but rarely would a panel have the make up of COR. It tends to also happen at the European championships more.
Of course the Russians will say, ex Soviet states don't like us and don't vote for us, that's total crap. The Russian fed has enormous influence over those ex states and along the way has picked up small federations like Turkey and Israel too.

Lastly with regards to G/P, between her tweet and her coach's unprofessionalism on TV, I am sure they are going to pay the price with some of the judges this year, bad move...
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Thank you for this background, it was very educational. I had a feeling she was touching on things people probably have felt about this event for a while. I still think G/P's 4th place finish was reasonable given the way S/B skated that FD and where G/P's FD is right now, however the way it happened can lead to some questions as did other scores. That said, I still think the way Lane went about this was all kinds of wrong especially with Soloviev seeing it, and I still worry about that negative energy being carried over and affecting their training and Piper/Paul's feelings about their scores/placements moving forward, not to mention how the way Lane's comments (and publicly thanking The Skating Protocol, who made that video to put the judges on blast, on Twitter) went "viral" among the skating community will probably and unfairly make some judges scrutinize Piper and Paul even further. I think in some circles, they just put a target on their backs.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
I think everyone has probably managed to tell I love G&P.. because of their innovation in choreography and music selections. They have really gotten me into dance.

Having said that I would also give S&B the improvement of the season award already because I thought both their programs were amaze-balls too! (Heck Im REALLY getting into Dance.) So Im torn I love my husband Poirier but S&B were good and have improved...


But what do you all think about B&S..if they messed up a major element they still stayed in 2nd place..... should they not have at least fallen to bronze???? I mean if we're talking rationally and not all this home ice favorite stuff???
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I agree B/S and S/B should be reversed for this competition.
 
Excuse my language but I'm so done with this whole drama. All I can say is Carol lane and Piper are full of shit. Sore losers gonna keep hatin.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
But what do you all think about B&S..if they messed up a major element they still stayed in 2nd place..... should they not have at least fallen to bronze?
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Hubbell & Donohue were 3 points ahead of Bobrova & Soloviev last season at Worlds, missed an element completely--zero points for it--in the FD, and finished above Stepanova & Bukin. (H&D lost around 8.23 points on that element).

Bobrova & Soloviev missed a spin at Rostelecom. They lost up to 4 points for the spin (still earned a level two but with negative GOE).

Still would have finished above Stepanova & Bukin at Worlds.

Should Stepanova & Bukin have defeated Bobrova & Soloviev with the missed element? I would have no problem with it if they had. Just as I would have had no problem with Gilles & Poirier defeating Virtue & Moir's sloppy FD at Skate Canada last season.

But there's no inconsistency in the judging here when comparing B&S and S&B's scores in other events.

There is, however, a big question regarding the technical scoring for Bobrova & Soloviev at Rostelecom that is worth monitoring for later in the season.

B&S earned two level-four step sequences at Rostelecom. They earned none in international competition last season and none at Ondrej Nepela this year. Can they repeat those level-four steps without a Russian caller outside of Russia? It's worth watching. At least four--I'm thinking 4 1/2 but am too tired to double check my math--additional points they had right there relative to anything they earned last year. The Shibs had one level-four step sequence at Rostelecom.

As far as I can recall, those are the first three level-four senior step sequences of the season. I don't remember any given on the Challenger Series thus far. I didn't check all the protocols, but I can confirm that none were earned by Virtue & Moir, Papadakis & Cizeron, Weaver & Poje, Hubbell & Donohue, Gilles & Poirier, or Stepanova & Bukin.
 
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