The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[Ice_dance_fan]

I haven't rewatched, but in real time, I didn't think Kolesnik's twizzle errors were anywhere as bad as Gilles', and there certainly wasn't that sort of commentary or feedback from the most in-teknik of FSUers who were participating in the pbp threads, so that seems like revisionist history from the conspiracy theorists.

But he got level FOUR for his twizzles with mistake

 

[her grace]

I’ve rewatched. I’d call Gilles level 2 and Kolesnik level 3. If I’m applying the aggressively nitpicky standard the callers used where none of the benefit of the doubt goes to the skater, I can make an argument for Kolesnik to get a base call as well.

ETA: if Gilles’s twizzles were really as bad as the panel said, they shouldn’t have averaged +3 in GOE from the judges. There was definitely a disconnect between what the panel saw and the judges saw.

Personally, I think the base call was aggressively harsh. I watch the JGP; I’ve seen a lot of bad twizzles—they don’t usually get a base level call

 

[Karen-W]

I’ve rewatched. I’d call Gilles level 2 and Kolesnik level 3. If I’m applying the aggressively nitpicky standard the callers used where none of the benefit of the doubt goes to the skater, I can make an argument for Kolesnik to get a base call as well.

Fair enough. So, is this a situation where the woman was punished more severely while the man got away with murdering his twizzles? Reputational judging being what it is - Piper is known to have struggled on her twizzles in the past & gotten her share of lower levels while Vadym is considered by some to possibly be the next greatest male ice dancer in the international field (that might be hyperbole, but I'm not sure it's a far stretch given the tongue-bathing he gets around here most of the time).

 

[ice coverage]

I haven't rewatched, but in real time, I didn't think Kolesnik's twizzle errors were anywhere as bad as Gilles', and there certainly wasn't that sort of commentary or feedback from the most in-teknik of FSUers who were participating in the pbp threads, so that seems like revisionist history from the conspiracy theorists.

Also, IIRC: In real time, Hanretty's commentary did not question Z/K's twizzles at all.
It was only later during slow-motion replay of the twizzles that Hanretty seemed to first notice, and he first remarked upon, imperfection from Kolesnik.

 

[Aaron MB Fan]

Honestly, what has happened this season and all of the controversy summed up in the past several pages of this thread just reinforces for me why Ice Dance is by far my least favourite discipline. It used to be a toss up for least favourite with Men's, but Men's has become far more exciting the past few years. Both fall well below Women's and Pairs.

I love watching Ice Dance, but as a sport, I can't get overly into it when factors like choreography and music selection hold so much control in the outcomes (case and point, S&D leap frogging so many teams to be 3rd in the FD at Worlds). That credit IMO belongs equally if not more to the choreographers, coaches etc as the skaters receiving the medals. Politiks are prevalent in every discipline, but play far too big of a role in Ice Dance in particular. The end result is that it takes much of the enjoyment out of the discipline for me.

 

[jägerbomb]

Honestly, what has happened this season and all of the controversy summed up in the past several pages of this thread just reinforces for me why Ice Dance is by far my least favourite discipline.

100% agree.

I love watching Ice Dance, but as a sport, I can't get overly into it when factors like choreography and music selection hold so much control in the outcomes (case and point, S&D leap frogging so many teams to be 3rd in the FD at Worlds). That credit IMO belongs equally if not more to the choreographers, coaches etc as the skaters receiving the medals.

Yes, and now IAM has an unprecedented monopoly on the sport, which makes things worse. I know people here think 90s ice dance was more corrupt and less of a sport, but I find that era had more integrity, was infinitely more interesting, and watchable than....whatever this latest iteration of the sport is.

Having said all that, I am enjoying the mess. At least it's more interesting than the rest of the quadrennial in ice dance.

 

[Karen-W]

The rules are so poorly written, some of the stuff is next to impossible to find since the ISU revamped their website, and the skaters themselves are confused. I’ll read the whole message on our next show but I had a dancer competing on the Grand Prix message me last week thanking Thomas and I for our videos that explain some of the finer details in-depth, to help that skater understand more. It shouldn’t be like that.

Just a couple of thoughts that have been floating around in my mind since I saw this comment yesterday as well as the discussion about Rettstatt's PaperGate at SkAm...

First - I agree with those who see this as a clear ethical issue. I don't know that I'm as bothered by it as some people because I would be shocked if IAM hasn't had similar outreach to other members of the IDTC whose countries are represented by IAM skaters (Molina FRA, Selby GBR & Weaver CAN). Similarly, we don't know what was shared in private or even at the conclusion of practices at other competitions, specifically the GPs, between technical panel members and the IAM coaches (or any other coaches, for that matter). IAM would be derelict in their duties to ALL of the skaters who are paying them if they didn't engage in similar conversations any time the opportunity arose. Yes, it is up to the technical panel members and judges to refrain from consultation, etc, and they should be diligent in that, but something tells me, cynic that I am, that there's perhaps more laxity on the matter than is good for the ISU should a public controversy arise.

Second, I'm not sure that all coaches are as diligent about engaging with officials to get feedback in a timely fashion, nor do they seem to be proficient or knowledgeable about the rules. Yes, some of the rules are very poorly written, even for those of us whose native language is English, but I've had at least one member of the press message me and confide that some of Carol Lane's skaters have point-blank told this person that she does NOT know the rules. And, that's been lingering in my mind since I read the above comment. It's a rather damning indictment of that ice dancer's coaching team that their coaching team can't figure out for themselves in consultation with the dancers what @tony & @thvu are able to discern from the television feed.

We often joke about Igor's ability to politick on behalf of his teams, same with Marie-France. Is it politicking or is it seeking out the officials to get the critical feedback that they then take home and work with their skaters to make the changes to the programs?

Just some thoughts on a Sunday evening.

 

[Rackon]

I think people are trying to name Kolesnik as having just as bad of errors as Piper, but his was maybe the loss of 1 feature not multiple.

Someone on twitter is saying Zingkol went on live to address the hate they’ve received? I didn’t see it so I can’t verify how accurate it is, but if they’re receiving hate for this, that’s disappointing. I do see people online making references that they cheated?

ZK left Sunday for Japan - I don’t know about a live they did. Where are you seeing accusations of them cheating? They are such kind people, I really hate to see such falsehoods inflicted on them, especially at a moment they should be celebrating. .

 

[Tinycities]

ZK left Sunday for Japan - I don’t know about a live they did. Where are you seeing accusations of them cheating? They are such kind people, I really hate to see such falsehoods inflicted on them, especially at a moment they should be celebrating. .

No clue I didn’t see it, saw someone on twitter mention it. I was asking here if anyone else saw it because if true that’s unfortunate.

The cheating stuff, or at least paying off rettstatt stuff I’m seeing elsewhere, Twitter, Reddit, those places. We’ve all seen the articles recently saying that the scores were done to benefit the Americans. I think because they were the 6th team to qualify they’re taking the brunt of the negativity.

 

[kwanette]

No clue I didn’t see it, saw someone on twitter mention it. I was asking here if anyone else saw it because if true that’s unfortunate.

The cheating stuff, or at least paying off rettstatt stuff I’m seeing elsewhere, Twitter, Reddit, those places. We’ve all seen the articles recently saying that the scores were done to benefit the Americans. I think because they were the 6th team to qualify they’re taking the brunt of the negativity.

It is always helpful to post a link or a screen shot..rather than a "someone".

 

[yurokis40]

LALA should be at the grand prix final, I hope Piper and Paul are marked fairly for some reason judges love to target Canada in this discipline all the way back to the 90`s.

 

[skategal]

Just a couple of thoughts that have been floating around in my mind since I saw this comment yesterday as well as the discussion about Rettstatt's PaperGate at SkAm...

First - I agree with those who see this as a clear ethical issue. I don't know that I'm as bothered by it as some people because I would be shocked if IAM hasn't had similar outreach to other members of the IDTC whose countries are represented by IAM skaters (Molina FRA, Selby GBR & Weaver CAN). Similarly, we don't know what was shared in private or even at the conclusion of practices at other competitions, specifically the GPs, between technical panel members and the IAM coaches (or any other coaches, for that matter). IAM would be derelict in their duties to ALL of the skaters who are paying them if they didn't engage in similar conversations any time the opportunity arose. Yes, it is up to the technical panel members and judges to refrain from consultation, etc, and they should be diligent in that, but something tells me, cynic that I am, that there's perhaps more laxity on the matter than is good for the ISU should a public controversy arise.

Second, I'm not sure that all coaches are as diligent about engaging with officials to get feedback in a timely fashion, nor do they seem to be proficient or knowledgeable about the rules. Yes, some of the rules are very poorly written, even for those of us whose native language is English, but I've had at least one member of the press message me and confide that some of Carol Lane's skaters have point-blank told this person that she does NOT know the rules. And, that's been lingering in my mind since I read the above comment. It's a rather damning indictment of that ice dancer's coaching team that their coaching team can't figure out for themselves in consultation with the dancers what @tony & @thvu are able to discern from the television feed.

We often joke about Igor's ability to politick on behalf of his teams, same with Marie-France. Is it politicking or is it seeking out the officials to get the critical feedback that they then take home and work with their skaters to make the changes to the programs?

Just some thoughts on a Sunday evening.

If IAM is contacting Weaver for technical advice for the Canadian teams….well, it’s no wonder they aren’t getting levels.

I mean I love her and all but she doesn’t seem to know much about the technical requirements when she commentates on events.

They need to try someone different.