Should The Minimum Age That Ladies Can Compete As Seniors In Singles Be Raised From 15 To 17/18 Years Of Age?

[Kateri]

I watched part of the "Women's" Street competition and saw girls in their early teens spaitting on hard surfaces who then got up seemingly unharmed. The top level of the sport, and indeed the sport itself, exploits both the physical resilience and the foolhardiness of children.

Yeah, the media stuff I saw about Sky Brown all seemed impressed she was coming back to a medal after a truly horrendous injury last year when she fell badly and broke half her bones, and I'm just sitting here wondering what the heck the adults in her life are thinking.

 

[starrynight]

I don’t really understand a sport where you can reach the ultimate level of elite at 13??

If you can learn and perfect everything there is to do by 13 to the point of being the best on the planet, there must be something deficient in the sport somewhere.

 

[Seerek]

It's simply a case of a sport's debut to the Olympic programme combined with the depth on the women's side just starting to mature. I suspect if Skateboarding stays on the Olympic Programme, more women will stick around through to their 20s/ early 30s such as Alexis Sablone, who is 34.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, compare the women's competitors' ages to the ages of male skateboarders in the park event later today, where there will be 2 competitors in qualifying who are in their mid 40s (Oberholzer and Glifberg).

 

[Orm Irian]

Since this topic has come up again ....

Dvora Meyers published a very good article during the Olympics arguing for the end of the teen gymnast in women's gymnastics. In the article, she reviews the history of women's gymnastics, how teen gymnasts became the norm, and how the sport is now moving away from this. I do find it very interesting that women's gymnastics currently is seeing a resurgence of older, more mature competitors in their 20s and longer careers--developments that seem to be generally celebrated and appreciated among fans. Yet women's skating is moving in the opposite direction, toward younger champions and shorter careers.

Time For The End Of The Teen Gymnast

Girls in gymnastics start very young and specialize very early, but that wasn’t always the case.

fivethirtyeight.com

That is a fantastic article; thanks for the link. I was particularly struck by this quote:

"By working with young girls rather than women, the male coaches don’t have to do much by way of changing their training techniques to teach complex acrobatics. The argument that fully grown women can’t learn the new acrobatic elements is one of lazy coaches who don’t want to work too hard."

It strikes me as much the same in figure skating. Coaches (both male and female) who still - consciously or otherwise - perceive adult female bodies as deficient facsimiles of adult male bodies rather than as equally capable bodies in their own right, and take the easy way out by focusing on little girls rather than developing practice that is designed for women's bodies. Plus the whole "We've always done it this way because this is the way it's always been done" mindset that just assumes change is too damn' hard to create.

Lazy is exactly the word for it.

 

[MacMadame]

Coaches (both male and female) who still - consciously or otherwise - perceive adult female bodies as deficient facsimiles of adult male bodies rather than as equally capable bodies in their own right, and take the easy way out by focusing on little girls rather than developing practice that is designed for women's bodies.

They also treat puberty like a disease and not something natural that leads to stronger bodies. This distance runner wrote about this in her book:

Female Athletes Need to See Puberty as a Power, Not a Weakness

I had the opportunity to safely and naturally grow a body durable enough to compete not only in college, but also beyond.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Seerek]

This reminds me of of a viral video from last month of a 5 year old running in an age group 400m race (the maximum distance allowable in this age group - 800m starts at the 8 year old category).

Lots of push back on it (understandable)

5-Year-Old Breaks 400m National Record

Watch all races from the meet here: https://flosports.link/3B3VyqE5-year-old Saleia Stowe runs 1:25.37 to break the 400m age group national record at the 202...

youtu.be

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

An 18 year old age minimum in senior ladies,in addition to the reinstatement of compulsory figures and the elimination of lyrics would immediately fix all that ails our disordered sport.

-BB

 

[Vagabond]

An 18 year old age minimum in senior ladies,in addition to the reinstatement of compulsory figures and the elimination of lyrics would immediately fix all that ails our disordered sport.

-BB

That would include concussions, rape, sexual assault, daring adolescent girls to ask older men to send them photographs of genitalia, eating disorders, psycological abuse, pushing prepubescent ice dancers to perform on Russian evening television, and girls under the age of eighteen doing triple axels and quadruple jumps to compete at their respective Nationals, where the ISU rules would not apply.

Not that funny when you think about it.

 

[Lemonade20]

It's a tough question. Age isn't always indicative of what someone is capable of doing. We can't compare Lipinski to today's Russian jumping beans. The problem lies more in how hard the skaters are pushing to achieve crazy feats like a triple and even a quad axel. Raising the age won't limit anything. I would be more concerned about how they're training. It feels like the focus has shifted so much, it's become gymnastics on ice instead of beautiful storytelling.

 

[skatingguy]

It's a tough question. Age isn't always indicative of what someone is capable of doing. We can't compare Lipinski to today's Russian jumping beans. The problem lies more in how hard the skaters are pushing to achieve crazy feats like a triple and even a quad axel. Raising the age won't limit anything. I would be more concerned about how they're training. It feels like the focus has shifted so much, it's become gymnastics on ice instead of beautiful storytelling.

I don't see how can't compare Lipinski when you see that she was forced out of the sport with hip injuries.

 

[Lemonade20]

I don't see how can't compare Lipinski when you see that she was forced out of the sport with hip injuries.

Czisny was also forced out with hip injuries but that doesn't make her an amazing skater. Michelle Kwan had a presence on ice that none of the current skaters can ever hope to match.

 

[skatingguy]

Czisny was also forced out with hip injuries but that doesn't make her an amazing skater. Michelle Kwan had a presence on ice that none of the current skaters can ever hope to match.

I know every discussion on FSU is really a discussion about Michelle Kwan, but I don't understand why you're bringing her up, or comparing her with either Czisny or Lipinski in the context of age restrictions. I do understand that Czisny was forced to retire because of injury, but she also had a much longer career than Lipinski, and eventually injury is a common reason that many athletes retire. I would just prefer that the sport didn't force too many of the athletes to retire as teenagers.

 

[Lemonade20]

Every single sport has athletes retiring due to injuries. How would changing the age limit help?

 

[skatingguy]

Every single sport has athletes retiring due to injuries. How would changing the age limit help?

By putting less pressure on growing bodies and giving the athletes the chance to have longer careers.

 

[AxelAnnie]

An 18 year old age minimum in senior ladies,in addition to the reinstatement of compulsory figures and the elimination of lyrics would immediately fix all that ails our disordered sport.

-BB

No shit!

 

[love_skate2011]

Sky Brown competed age 13, as is making headlines. so whats the fuzz about

 

[Sylvia]

What is the minimum age for the Olympics? Tokyo rules explained as 13-year-old Sky Brown wins skateboarding bronze

How old do you have to be to compete at the Olympics? Who is the youngest ever Olympic athlete? Sky Brown is paving the way for young athletes in Tokyo 2020.

www.eurosport.com

According to the official Olympics website, there is no age limit for those wanting to compete.
Under rule 42, it states: "There may be no age limit for competitors in the Olympic Games other than as prescribed in the competition rules of an IF [International Sports Federation] as approved by the IOC Executive Board."
However, certain sports have age limits. Gymnasts must be 16 years old to compete at the Games, while boxers must have turned 18.

 

[skatingguy]

Sky Brown competed age 13, as is making headlines. so whats the fuzz about

Is she a figure skater?

Then it's not really relevant to this conversation.

 

[tony]

I argued the hypothetical of imagining skaters like Kwan having to wait until she was 18 by the previous July 1 to compete at the Olympics/Worlds. That puts her first Worlds in 1999. Can you even imagine? I'd rather not, because many of her memorable programs came before that point. She would've been a week too young to compete in Nagano.

Also, I really don't understand this supposed logic of skaters avoiding injuries earlier in their careers by making a change like this. The junior skaters are completing the same amount of jumps in a lesser time, and for a long time up until recently they were generally out-jumping the seniors in terms of technical content and level of difficulty. Make the senior level 18+? Do people forget the fact that there will still be extremely competitive junior competitions up until the skaters could go senior? Injuries are just a part of sport, regardless of the sport. If the hypothetical rings true according to some posters, then we might not even see some of these skaters at all by the time they could compete at the senior level.

 

[love_skate2011]

Is she a figure skater?

Then it's not really relevant to this conversation.

It is, coz Sky Brown has been brought up here, see the thread and she is a World and Olympian.

even in gymnastics, arguably more dangerous for girls has a minimum age of 16
and some people want to raise 18 for figure skating ?

 

[skatingguy]

I argued the hypothetical of imagining skaters like Kwan having to wait until she was 18 by the previous July 1 to compete at the Olympics/Worlds. That puts her first Worlds in 1999. Can you even imagine? I'd rather not, because many of her memorable programs came before that point.

Imagine if she'd won the Olympics in 1998 & had stopped the way Lipinski did.

Also, I really don't understand this supposed logic of skaters avoiding injuries earlier in their careers by making a change like this. The junior skaters are completing the same amount of jumps in a lesser time, and for a long time up until recently they were generally out-jumping the seniors in terms of technical content and level of difficulty. Make the senior level 18+?

I don't know what the answer to the age question is, but I think it's good to discuss the options. My thought process around injuries in young athletes is that if the plan is that they are going to have a long career than the injury will be dealt with differently than if they only have a couple of years.

Do people forget the fact that there will still be extremely competitive junior competitions up until the skaters could go senior? Injuries are just a part of sport, regardless of the sport. If the hypothetical rings true according to some posters, then we might not even see some of these skaters at all by the time they could compete at the senior level.

That's true now.

 

[skatingguy]

It is, coz Sky Brown has been brought up here, see the thread and she is a World and Olympian.

even in gymnastics, arguably more dangerous for girls has a minimum age of 16
and some people want to raise 18 for figure skating ?

Age eligibility in skateboarding isn't relevant to the discussion around age eligibility in figure skating, and just because a 13 year-old competed at the Olympics in skateboarding doesn't mean that a 13 year-old should be allowed to compete at the Olympics in figure skating.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Not that funny when you think about it

Interestingly, I also see no humor in this deliberately obtuse reply.

No shit!

I do not believe resorting to the use of an obscenity to agree is necessary or appropriate.

-BB

 

[tony]

Imagine if she'd won the Olympics in 1998 & had stopped the way Lipinski did.

I don't know what the answer to the age question is, but I think it's good to discuss the options. My thought process around injuries in young athletes is that if the plan is that they are going to have a long career than the injury will be dealt with differently than if they only have a couple of years.

That's true now.

Kwan had an injury early in the Olympic season. Lipinski went on to compete for four more years in the pro scene, but by the fall of 2002 she was looking extremely rough and I believe she even lost Ice Wars individually to Butyrskaya, who was then 30 at that time. Lipinski didn't win the Olympics and completely vanish due to her injury, and I'm sure you know this.

You've argued in this thread that it needs to stay in the scope of figure skating and that it would help prevent these injuries. But I still fail to see how that would even start to happen when younger skaters still have a full international set of events. Lipinski was injured by repeating 3+3's. Are you now saying that all younger skaters should not even practice combinations, let alone trying for triple Axels and quads until they are of a certain age? Just trying to get to an understanding of what you think would truly happen if the age got raised, because even if the ISU changed the rules about permitted jumps in competition for juniors, I assure you they would still be working on the more difficult jumps in practice.

All sports progress. Butyrskaya competed in ISU events until she was very nearly 30 and never once withdrew from any event due to injury, and she played with (and landed in practice) the 3A for many years, threw in 3+3 sequences later in her life, etc. Skaters might have chronic back and hip problems from spins or basic stroking or anything else that is from repetition.

 

[love_skate2011]

Age eligibility in skateboarding isn't relevant to the discussion around age eligibility in figure skating, and just because a 13 year-old competed at the Olympics in skateboarding doesn't mean that a 13 year-old should be allowed to compete at the Olympics in figure skating.

I'm not saying that 13 year olds should be the minimum standard in figure skating.

the post above mentions there are no limits to the Olympics for age requirement, its the Federations that make the rules.
15 is more than good age minimum age requirement in figure skating, when you have skateboarding performing tricks that are way more dangerous sport for a 13 year old.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

The junior skaters are completing the same amount of jumps in a lesser time, and for a long time up until recently they were generally out-jumping the seniors in terms of technical content and level of difficulty. Make the senior level 18+? Do people forget the fact that there will still be extremely competitive junior competitions up until the skaters could go senior? Injuries are just a part of sport, regardless of the sport. If the hypothetical rings true according to some posters, then we might not even see some of these skaters at all by the time they could compete at the senior level.

The reinstatement of compulsory figures and limiting jump passes in free skating addresses all your concerns.

-BB

 

[skatingguy]

You've argued in this thread that it needs to stay in the scope of figure skating and that it would help prevent these injuries. But I still fail to see how that would even start to happen when younger skaters still have a full international set of events. Lipinski was injured by repeating 3+3's. Are you now saying that all younger skaters should not even practice combinations, let alone trying for triple Axels and quads until they are of a certain age? Just trying to get to an understanding of what you think would truly happen if the age got raised.

Which is why my answer to the question 'Should the minimum age for figure skating be raised to 18?' is 'I don't know.'

 

[tony]

Which is why my answer to the question 'Should the minimum age for figure skating be raised to 18?' is 'I don't know.'

To be honest, my first reply came because of this very statement:

By putting less pressure on growing bodies and giving the athletes the chance to have longer careers.

and because of suggesting Lipinski was gone after 1998. She was still doing several triples a night in touring and competitions each season for an entire Olympic cycle before things got really bad. She won the Olympics and went on to make big money in the beginning of her pro career. She didn't 'stop' in the way you're trying to suggest.

We also have to remember that some skaters don't want to turn this into an entire life profession. Some want to achieve all the success they can at a younger age so that they can go to university at a normal age and/or move on to the next part of their lives. And it's win-win, because then it doesn't give certain snarky people all over message boards and Twitter the fuel to go on and on about how skaters have no life skills and can't transition out of the sport.

 

[sheetz]

The problem is that figure skating isn't a real career profession the way tennis, golf, or pro team sports are. For the vast majority of skaters, even highly ranked ones, it's an incredibly expensive hobby. There's little incentive for a skater to have a long, expensive career that would simply put them deeper into debt.

One of the things that has helped to increase the age of pro tennis players is an increase in prize money. Older players are able to stay in the sport much longer now, as even relatively low ranked ones are able to make a decent living by continuing to play.

 

[skatingguy]

To be honest, my first reply came because of this very statement:

and because of suggesting Lipinski was gone after 1998. She was still doing several triples a night in touring and competitions each season for an entire Olympic cycle before things got really bad. She won the Olympics and went on to make big money in the beginning of her pro career. She didn't 'stop' in the way you're trying to suggest.

We also have to remember that some skaters don't want to turn this into an entire life profession. Some want to achieve all the success they can at a younger age so that they can go to university at a normal age and/or move on to the next part of their lives. And it's win-win, because then it doesn't give certain snarky people all over message boards and Twitter the fuel to go on and on about how skaters have no life skills and can't transition out of the sport.

I just want the athletes to have the option, and I think it's better for the sport if they can.