Should The Minimum Age That Ladies Can Compete As Seniors In Singles Be Raised From 15 To 17/18 Years Of Age?

Should The Minimum Age That Ladies Can Compete As Seniors In Singles Be Raised From 15 To 17/18?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 46.7%
  • No

    Votes: 73 48.7%
  • Don’t Know

    Votes: 7 4.7%

  • Total voters
    150

Maofan7

Member
Messages
19,345
Should the minimum age that ladies can compete as seniors in singles be raised from 15 to 17/18 years of age as some are proposing, according to the article below?

Article reads:-

“The idea of raising the age limit is one possible solution and one of the main subjects being discussed at present, even among the top coaches,” said Fabio Bianchetti of Italy, chairman of the ISU singles and pairs technical committee. “The matter will very probably be considered at the next ISU Congress (summer 2020.)”

An 11th-hour, so-called “urgent” proposal for a higher age limit failed to get enough votes even to be discussed formally at the 2018 Congress. Since then, more of the sport’s influential voices are advocating for it, including decorated coach and TV commentator Tatiana Tarasova of Russia.

The current rule says skaters must be 15 by the July 1 before the ensuing season to compete as seniors. The talk has been of raising that minimum to 17 or 18.

“A higher age limit would make sense,” Korpi said. “Then you would make sure the technique for a quad is a technique that lasts beyond puberty, that skaters have longer careers than ages 14 to 17.”
 
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MacMadame

My G.O.A.T is better than your G.O.A.T.
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31,174
How about 16 years? That's what I'd vote for. 18 is too old for sure. Not sure about 17.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Kind of depends on what result you want to achieve.

What problems are you trying to solve.

Is it safety of the skaters? I don't think there is enough data to prove that the quads and the prepubescent skaters is dangerous to growing bodies.

Trying to get skaters to stay around longer? I don't think raising the age will help. That is a lot of years to hang out in Juniors.

Right now, we have one woman who has created fabulous results with her training technique. Whatever she is doing certainly works. IMO some of it is frenetic, but watching
Kostornaia, she has all the artistry, jumps, transitions....one could not ask for more from a skater.

I think it will take an entire Olympic cycle before we can really assess the value of either keeping things as they are, or making changes.





 

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
527
How about 16 years? That's what I'd vote for. 18 is too old for sure. Not sure about 17.
I'd support 16 as well, on the grounds that that's the age, in many if not most countries with skating federations, that a person can make the independent decision to leave school and begin to function as a trainee-adult in their society. It implies that those societies are set up to promote a certain degree of emotional maturity and intellectual development by age 16 that isn't necessarily aimed for any younger than that.

And I'd support it for both girls and boys. In singles, pairs and dance. And get rid of the extra two years allowed in juniors for boys in pairs and dance, too; that might help to inhibit the formation and some of the more detrimental side-effects of what can quickly become child-adult pairings.

Of course, those younger skaters competing under the current age limits would be grandfathered in, as has happened following previous changes.

But there's one other, more controversial change I'd make, because the goal of this is to get coaches to adjust their training regimes to promote steady development, stable post-puberty technique and components developing in tandem with elements. I'd require member federations to adjust their rules so that the domestic age for competing in seniors is at least 15, preferably 16. You don't comply domestically, your athletes don't compete internationally.

If the domestic and international rules are too far out of step, the change won't have the intended impact on coaching regimes, after all.
 
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bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
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13,581
The age limit in the premier showcased Summer Olympic sport* is 16 for females, and I think it had a positive effect by encouraging a more muscular body type, increasing the variation in body types, and widening the age range of participation.

Because of this, I see no reason to be more restrictive in the premier showcased Winter Olympic sport.

* Woman Artistic Gymnastics
 
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Kateri

void beast
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3,712
What if it didn't change anything about training or jumps practised, it just meant everyone watched junior ladies instead of seniors?
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
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3,449
The age limit in the premier showcased Summer Olympic sport* is 16 for females, and I think it had a positive effect by encouraging a more muscular body type, increasing the variation in body types, and widening the age range of participation.
The gymnastics age rule isn't that different from skating. Must be 16 as of Jan 1 the year of the Olympics is similar to skating's 15 as of the previous July 1st. The only skaters excluded would be the ones who turned 15 Jan-June the previous year so I don't think changing the age rule to match gymnastics would have an effect on body types.

Under those age rules, Hughes would still get to compete and win in SLC. Sotnikova still gets to compete and win in Sochi. Zagitova gets excluded from Korea. Valieva and Usacheva are omitted from the next Olympics, but Liu would still be eligible.
 

DimaToe

Retired by Frank Carroll
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5,508
No. The men were and to some extent are still allowed sloppy and technically ambitious skating, why cant the women? elegance should be rewarded regardless of gender, same for technical excellence.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
30,596
No. The men were and to some extent are still allowed sloppy and technically ambitious skating, why cant the women? elegance should be rewarded regardless of gender, same for technical excellence.
I can’t help but love the way you put that. I’m almost convinced now.
 

miffy

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,837
I would say no after watching Russian Ladies. Why deprive ourselves of watching that kind of talent? I hope all 3 make it to 2022 and beyond, I think ISU should wait and see what happens before changing the rules assuming that they are going to burn out or lose their jumps.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
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22,459
Raising the minimum age for ladies, but not for men, could be problematic as it entails gender discrimination.
 

Seerek

Well-Known Member
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5,380
I believe the ISU institutes the senior age requirements across all the disciplines for which they're responsible (let it be known there are no 15 year olds dominating long/short track). Interestingly, FINA has lower age restrictions in diving (13).
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
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6,606
Could you imagine Kostornaia or a young Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada or even Carolina Kostner having to wait another two years to compete (in Kwan’s case- 4 years)?

I think 15 is a fine age. Like I’ve said elsewhere regarding the subject- some skaters are more than senior-ready by the time they are 15. Some still aren’t skating emotionally-geared programs into their late 20’s and early 30’s.

What I do think the ISU needs to consider is making the ladies/pairs PCS follow the same as the men. No more 80% of the total- just give them the full 100% and 1.0/2.0 factors.
 

Sasha'sSpins

♥2018 US Olympic Dream Team! Legends!♥
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4,950
No! I hated the age limit when it prevented a gifted skater like Mao from competing at the 2006 Olympics and I hate it still! I hate the age limit in gymnastics too. Often gymnasts hit their peak at 15-16.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
30,596
No! I hated the age limit when it prevented a gifted skater like Mao from competing at the 2006 Olympics and I hate it still! I hate the age limit in gymnastics too. Often gymnasts hit their peak at 15-16.
That's not as true any more. Many gymnasts have gotten better with age up until their peak and we're seeing more gymnasts having longer careers than ever before. I think for better or worse, what gymnastics did is changed what it valued and it so happened to helped more mature gymnasts with developed bodies who could build on that and improve their difficulty rather than rely on whispy thin bodies to get rotations and flips in. Like Simone Biles was paced to start hitting her stride after the age of 16 as opposed to before. They also changed the field in a way and allowed gymnasts to continue as event specialists so they only had to focus on one or two apparatuses rather than all four, or in the case of Men, six. Of course, it was up to the coaches and federations to adapt and make the sport work for older gymnasts.

Speaking of Simone, she had the Mao Asada-like bad luck in turning Olympic-eligible the season AFTER the Olympics. If she was a figure skater, she may have been surpassed and washed-up in two years, but instead she steadily paced herself for four seasons and pushed her difficulty to peak for 2016. Then she took one season off and then is hitting even higher heights in terms of difficulty, at the age of 22 because the sport actually values women's bodies, which have now been shown to have more strength and muscle than pre-pubescent ones. Hell, Catalina Ponor became a much cleaner gymnast doing more difficulty by 2012-beyond than she was in 2004 where she won beam and floor gold.
 
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AxelAnnie

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Some skaters never learn to skate with the music and theme and emotion. Ever. Courtny Hicks who i like is an example of NOT. It is not really emotion but rather artistry. Some have it and some don't. You can improve....but it is innate.

You are born with that presence that draws the eye and heart. It cannot be taught. Alysa is not a great artiste....but it is all there inside her. Trusova...fabulous technician...artistry...emotion...not so much.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
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22,459
Some skaters never learn to skate with the music and theme and emotion. Ever. Courtny Hicks who i like is an example of NOT. It is not really emotion but rather artistry. Some have it and some don't. You can improve....but it is innate.
And skaters can become both more artistic and expressive with the right coach, or in the right training environment, or if they find the music or genre that suits them.

Think Kevin Reynolds and rock'n'roll - allowed Kevin to really find his groove and thrive in it.
 
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misskarne

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I have yet to hear a proper argument for this that isn't a thinly-veiled "but the Russians are winning everything!".

So, no.
 

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
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I have yet to hear a proper argument for this that isn't a thinly-veiled "but the Russians are winning everything!".

So, no.
I don't doubt that you are right, but Russia's older B team would probably still win everything.
 

screech

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Messages
6,255
Hasn't it only been 20ish years or so since the age limit was introduced? IIRC until the mid 90s you had skaters like 13 year old Lipinski at Worlds, based on their junior results.

Since it has been a (relatively) short time, I don't foresee a change in age minimums happening anytime soon, unless we begin to see a lot of issues occurring in the young'uns.

Now if the judges would mark the GOE and PCS of (many of) the young ones accurately, and start recognizing the pre-rotation of some...
 

hanca

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9,373
So, there is the drive to help skaters who are getting older and therefore can’t rotate as easily as the youngsters. What about skaters who grew too tall? They also are disadvantaged because their centre of gravity is higher, which makes it harder. Why not give skaters such as Tsurskaya extra ten points, to appreciate her disadvantage. And what about skaters who are heavier...they also are disadvantaged because they rotate slower...
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,805
The arguments people set out re gymnastics seems compelling.

When I was a little girl, (as far as I remember it) the gymnasts were all such tiny waif like things, and sometimes their skin almost translucent. Now, the explosive power of a Simone Biles or Gabby Douglas is a world away from that.

I think that as long as this sport keeps discussing the idea of puberty being the killer of a career, the more it makes sense to have seniors start at an age when puberty has already started happening. I think skating is in such a bubble, that it forgets how utterly bizarre it is to talk of how stopping being a child ends you in an elite sport.

As for what effect raising the age limit might have, I would hope that it means that firstly, sustainable jumping technique is taught and also there is a calm understanding that time is required for skaters to adjust to body changes when they do come. Trying to adjust to body changes in the glare of the seniors field after a season of success in a child's body creates panic and must be very upsetting for the skaters.
 
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AxelAnnie

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The arguments people set out re gymnastics seems compelling.

When I was a little girl, (as far as I remember it) the gymnasts were all such tiny waif like things, and sometimes their skin almost translucent. Now, the explosive power of a Simone Biles or Gabby Douglas is a world away from that.

I think that as long as this sport keeps discussing the idea of puberty being the killer of a career, the more it makes sense to have seniors start at an age when puberty has already started happening. I think skating is in such a bubble, that it forgets how utterly bizarre it is to talk of how stopping being a child ends you in an elite sport.

As for what effect raising the age limit might have, I would hope that it means that firstly, sustainable jumping technique is taught and also there is a calm understanding that time is required for skaters to adjust to body changes when they do come. Trying to adjust to body changes in the glare of the seniors field after a season of success in a child's body creates panic and must be very upsetting for the skaters.
I don't think that raising the age limit means a more sustainable jumping technique would be taught. The thing that will effect change with technique is correct judging.

Puberty is not really predictable. Not like ok you are 14 - BOOM! You now have hips and breasts. And I don't think there is enough data to posit the cause and affect.

And, where do you take into consideration that restricting calories and elite athletic training can retard the onset of puberty.
 

DimaToe

Retired by Frank Carroll
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5,508
The issue isn’t age the issue is judging rewarding young athletes for qualities that aren’t there at all. I feel like 15 year olds competing at the senior level Wold be just fine if PCS were actually judged correctly. It would level out the field and reward those that actually deliver quality programs.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,000
My solution is keep it at 15 but please dont call it "ladies" competition. There were no ladies on the GPF podium, just girls, and thats fine..... But dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining.
 

SkateFanBerlin

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801
Current young winners will not stay into their 20's. Consequently, the artistic part of the sport with go down. It's not a coincidence that I never watch jumpers but turn back to the great "total" skaters - Kim, Kostner, etc.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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Current young winners will not stay into their 20's. Consequently, the artistic part of the sport with go down. It's not a coincidence that I never watch jumpers but turn back to the great "total" skaters - Kim, Kostner, etc.
I do not agree with your premise. It is the judging (PCS) that is pushing this. IMO - Change the reward, you change the result.
A few ideas from this thread.....do not reward jumps that are under rotated or pre-rotated. Do not "count" a jump with a fall.............or larger penality. No more "well they got it around before the fall" No, they didn't.....hence the fall LOL>
 

Nadya

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353
I don't doubt that you are right, but Russia's older B team would probably still win everything.
That's true, and I don't recall the same frenzy after Lipinski's or Hughes' win, and they were both of tender age but a different nationality.
 

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