Should The Minimum Age That Ladies Can Compete As Seniors In Singles Be Raised From 15 To 17/18 Years Of Age?

[tony]

I was assuming that they would have had to have turned eighteen by July 1, 1997, given that the rule in place at the time was that skaters had to have turned fifteen by that same date.

I'm using the same July 1, 1997 basis. But Sokolova was born in February 1980. Still wouldn't have been old enough-- as I said, she would've turned 18 during the Olympics and you leapfrogged her over Butyrskaya and Slutskaya who both would've been old enough anyways.

 

[VGThuy]

Now I realized how truly unlucky some skaters who were born on July are depending on the year they're born.

 

[skateboy]

If anyone truly wants the Tonia Kwiatkowski's of the world as a champion, I'm out.

 

[VGThuy]

If anyone truly wants the Tonia Kwiatkowski's of the world as a champion, I'm out.

Crazy that Kwan wouldn't have been eligible until 2000. She may have quit skating by then because waiting to "cash out" at 18 is something very few people are willing to do or able to afford to do.

 

[Deleted member 80467]

.

 

[zigzig]

No age limits!!!! they’re stupid. who's starting a change.org petition!!!???

 

[viennese]

Some skaters never learn to skate with the music and theme and emotion. Ever. Courtny Hicks who i like is an example of NOT. It is not really emotion but rather artistry. Some have it and some don't. You can improve....but it is innate.

You are born with that presence that draws the eye and heart. It cannot be taught. Alysa is not a great artiste....but it is all there inside her. Trusova...fabulous technician...artistry...emotion...not so much.

It's not fair to bring Courtney Hicks into this debate. However you feel about her artistry or lack thereof. She came back from a serious injury (broken leg, I think) when she was transitioning from junior to senior and improved her power and jumps as she got older.

And can I imagine Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada waiting a couple of years to compete as seniors? I don't know. That's the past. Look to present and future skaters. I wish them long, or at least longer careers. Health athletic careers with fewer injuries.

I don't see that now. There's a been a fast turnover of champions from some countries. Win, get badly injured or burned out in 18 months, retire before age 18. It's depressing for the sport.

 

[Deleted member 80467]

.

 

[AxelAnnie]

That thing about age is really difficult. Bones, muscles, etc. all grow and mature at different rates. So 15 on one person, could be either 13 or 17 on someone else. It is all really a false construct (an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically one considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence).

Add into that quads, triple axels, and the pressure that puts on young bodies is mind-boggling.
I guess I think it should be raised. There could be a 13-16 division, with restricted elements.

I am not so worried about standings, and who can do what, etc. But I am concerned about young skaters being sidelined with injury. Trusova gave her body an inordinate amount of pounding. As did Sherbokova.

Add in two factors: The increase in the number of competitions (so many more chances to get hurt) and our favorite and ever-present Covid (which, of course, makes each competition more precious - because it is an opportunity to skate, get those programs out there. However the travel arrangements for contestants, judges, and skaters are really difficult.)

So in the words of Irina Slutskaya - And I paraphrase "This is sport, it is not life"

There should be an answer in here somewhere, but it will take a greater mind than mine to figure it out.

Oh, and one other thing. Well, maybe two. I remember my then husband who introduced me to skating stopped watching because he said....they are all skating the same thing. Which is true. At each competition, skaters were skating the same program. Ok - I can get that. You have to be a die-hard fan to have one comp on the TV, one on the computer, and another on the phone

And because skaters are in and out so fast, there is little room for longevity. Where casual fans might follow a skater for a few years. Not so much anymore. And I say this will all respect, I still have trouble keeping the Russian ladies names straight - that is on me, I know. But I am really old, so I have trouble keeping my own name straight

 

[AxelAnnie]

If anyone truly wants the Tonia Kwiatkowski's of the world as a champion, I'm out.

I don't get your comment. Personally, I wouldn't want to watch Tonia do anything at any age. I don't understand why you say that and what you mean. Are you referring to her style, body (which you will ket killed for) weight (oops again) costumes? Lutz entry

 

[skateboy]

I don't get your comment. Personally, I wouldn't want to watch Tonia do anything at any age. I don't understand why you say that and what you mean. Are you referring to her style, body (which you will ket killed for) weight (oops again) costumes? Lutz entry

What I mean is that if the age limit had been 18 in 1998, both Tara and Michelle would not have been on the Olympic team, let alone national champions. That would have left Nicole and Tonia K. (Not sure who the third member would have been.) I loved Nicole when she was on. Tonia K., not so much.

 

[AxelAnnie]

What I mean is that if the age limit had been 18 in 1998, both Tara and Michelle would not have been on the Olympic team, let alone national champions. That would have left Nicole and Tonia K. (Not sure who the third member would have been

Thanks. Now I get it. Although Nicole is gorgeous when she practices, stays sane, and delivers, Tonia would have been a different enchalada all together.

 

[viennese]

If anyone truly wants the Tonia Kwiatkowski's of the world as a champion, I'm out.

If you're looking at 1998, we might have seen Chen Lu, Maria Butyrskaya, or a healthy Surya Bonaly make a run at the top of the podium. Or look at the other 1990s women who were in the mix.

No need to slam Kwiatkowski.

 

[Seerek]

Natasha Kuchiki - would she have been age eligible for 1992?

 

[screech]

Wasn't there a previous rule where if someone medalled at Junior Worlds they were grandfathered in to seniors?
If people have issues with ages, why not something like that instead? I mean, we'd still have had the current crop of young Russians, plus Alysa, but it wouldn't be ALL the young ones skating in seniors. Keeping skaters in a lower category than they're capable of competing might actually lead to some early retirement as well - if they aren't being challenged, they may lose their drive and love of the sport.

 

[Skibean]

Maybe and maybe not. It’s a tough question to answer.
Back in the 90’s with Kwan and Lipinski they actually were the best skaters in the world. I think with the current judging system different things are being rewarded. Maybe change the judging system and not the age limits.
Let’s face it. Kamila would win no matter which judging system is being used. Should she be held back due to age? Probably not. She’s unquestionably the best skater in the world right now.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

It's the old question of what you want the sport to be. I'm older and like the idea of people developing over time to become truly great - great jump technique, great skating skills, great relationship to the music. The most points - skewed towards jump points - is not the sport I love. Kamila is amazing, but will she be in 3 years from now? Recent examples would say probably not. She'll be injured, or having won everything just quit. We'll never know how great Lipnizskaya or Zagitova could have been; they weren't around long enough.

I think Kwan having 2 less world titles is a trade off I could accept. Even Lipinsky never making it out of juniors would be ok. We'd have more Kostner's who push artistry or Tuktamesheva's showing how adults can master technique. (please excuse spelling).

Anyway, after Olys I think ISU will push age limits up 1 year.

 

[rfisher]

Maybe and maybe not. It’s a tough question to answer.
Back in the 90’s with Kwan and Lipinski they actually were the best skaters in the world. I think with the current judging system different things are being rewarded. Maybe change the judging system and not the age limits.
Let’s face it. Kamila would win no matter which judging system is being used. Should she be held back due to age? Probably not. She’s unquestionably the best skater in the world right now.

It wouldn't change the current best skaters. The skating federations can send whomever they want.

I wonder if fans who want skaters to skate competitively for years have any idea of the financial costs, the focus required for skating, the lack of other things in life these skaters have to do just to provide entertainment for fans? It would eliminate any skater who doesn't have family who can afford the thousands of dollars required. Federations will only support those who are winning and that isn't enough to pay for ice and training. Kostner is frequently cited as an example. Fact is, there were no other Italian ladies which pretty much guaranteed Kostner could skate as long as she wanted. See Michal Brezina for the Czech Republic, or his sibling for that matter. That's just flat out not the case in Russia or even Japan. Tuk can still skate because she's found ways to support herself and has Mishin's support in St. Pete. Leonova, OTOH, didn't have either and quit to raise a family. If anybody thinks Liu will continue to skate if she were to win an OGM is delusional.

 

[clairecloutier]

Skating has a long ramp-up to international success. For skaters who have already put in the 8-10 years of training necessary to achieve international viability, it often makes sense to keep going as long as they can (if they’re enjoying it and are happy with their progress). Walking away too early means all those sunk costs are lost. Yeah, they avoid incurring further cost, but they also lose the benefit of what’s already been spent. And sometimes more federation funding becomes available with success. It’s an individual calculation that each skater and their family has to make relative to other goals. And I’m pretty sure that fans’ wishes don’t play any role in the decision. In general, I feel like skating careers are in many cases lengthening overall, outside of Russian ladies skating.

 

[Seerek]

As I said earlier in the thread, the ISU applies the same age rule (15 by July 1st) across all its sports and disciplines. So any change would also affect long/short track as well (there are only a handful of 17-19 year olds currently considered senior medal contenters in those disciplines).

 

[VGThuy]

I just wonder if we can make this sport sustainable where people can make a career out it like most sports do. I don’t think it’s normal to have a sport that has the tv contracts and viewership every four years that skating has and is able to hold full seasons full of comps every year can’t afford or attract ways to make skating a sport one can actually financially benefit from so skaters who choose to can try to have long careers like athletes in other sports. And if men and ice dancers don’t hit their peak until later then why must they face a heavier financial burden than women who are encouraged to quit “to go to college”, which sounds nice but also sounds like college is being used to mask the real issue of forced retirements and whatnot. No other discipline has fans pushing their skaters out like that. I wonder why…

Imagine if most other sports had skating’s model. Imagine if Serena or Venus quit when they were like 16-18. I think the inability to keep athletes discredits the sport in a way.

 

[rfisher]

Sounds good,

I just wonder if we can make this sport sustainable where people can make a career out it like most sports do. I don’t think it’s normal to have a sport that has the tv contracts and viewership every four years that skating has and is able to hold full seasons full of comps every year can’t afford or attract ways to make skating a sport one can actually financially benefit from so skaters who choose to can try to have long careers like athletes in other sports. And if men and ice dancers don’t hit their peak until later then why must they face a heavier financial burden than women who are encouraged to quit “to go to college”, which sounds nice but also sounds like college is being used to mask the real issue of forced retirements and whatnot. No other discipline has fans pushing their skaters out like that. I wonder why…

Imagine if most other sports had skating’s model. Imagine if Serena or Venus quit when they were like 16-18. I think the inability to keep athletes discredits the sport in a way.
[/QUOTE

I just wonder if we can make this sport sustainable where people can make a career out it like most sports do. I don’t think it’s normal to have a sport that has the tv contracts and viewership every four years that skating has and is able to hold full seasons full of comps every year can’t afford or attract ways to make skating a sport one can actually financially benefit from so skaters who choose to can try to have long careers like athletes in other sports. And if men and ice dancers don’t hit their peak until later then why must they face a heavier financial burden than women who are encouraged to quit “to go to college”, which sounds nice but also sounds like college is being used to mask the real issue of forced retirements and whatnot. No other discipline has fans pushing their skaters out like that. I wonder why…

Imagine if most other sports had skating’s model. Imagine if Serena or Venus quit when they were like 16-18. I think the inability to keep athletes discredits the sport in a way.

The Williams sisters had big financial rewards for tennis. Skating has no where near the same. It is a niche sport at best. The market might be there in Japan and to some extent in Russia, but flat out isn't in the U.S. I

 

[skateboy]

Imagine if most other sports had skating’s model. Imagine if Serena or Venus quit when they were like 16-18. I think the inability to keep athletes discredits the sport in a way.

I don't really consider the age issues skating's "model." Out of four disciplines, it certainly isn't an issue for Pairs, Dance, and Men's Singles.

 

[Skibean]

It wouldn't change the current best skaters. The skating federations can send whomever they want.

I wonder if fans who want skaters to skate competitively for years have any idea of the financial costs, the focus required for skating, the lack of other things in life these skaters have to do just to provide entertainment for fans? It would eliminate any skater who doesn't have family who can afford the thousands of dollars required. Federations will only support those who are winning and that isn't enough to pay for ice and training. Kostner is frequently cited as an example. Fact is, there were no other Italian ladies which pretty much guaranteed Kostner could skate as long as she wanted. See Michal Brezina for the Czech Republic, or his sibling for that matter. That's just flat out not the case in Russia or even Japan. Tuk can still skate because she's found ways to support herself and has Mishin's support in St. Pete. Leonova, OTOH, didn't have either and quit to raise a family. If anybody thinks Liu will continue to skate if she were to win an OGM is delusional.

I was never a huge Kostner fan, but since she is mentioned—I remember her competing and falling all over the ice. They would call her skating colt-like, because her legs were so long and thin. She stuck it out and became a champion. Believe it or not, many fans and viewers enjoy watching the skaters grow and improve over the years. The revolving door may not be enough to keep the viewers interested. The once every four year Olympic viewers will always tune in though and they won’t know any different.

 

[allezfred]

Injuries do happen. In fact, most if not all elite skaters we see are managing injuries in some form or another.

However, when you see a pattern with one school and coaching team it should be a cause of concern.

 

[alexikeguchi]

In the end, raising the age narrowly won in this poll. I wonder if there would be a wider margin now with the current underage doping kerfuffle? I know there are mature athletes who also ingested PEDs unknowingly in "vitamin supplements" that their coaches might have provided, but they at least have more agency and control over their own lives and training circumstances. I don't know how a young child could be expected to question a coach or team doctor's instructions when they are in such a dependent position. I wonder if RusFed finally screwed the pooch with incentivizing the pipeline of first year seniors who win everything and then retire, and maybe the rest of the ISU members will stand up to them at last.

 

[MarieM]

Considering all that is happening right now, they shoud immediatly go with a 16 age rule. If you're not old enough to face the same consequences as people considered adults regarding doping charges, you shouldn't be able to skate against them.
More over, making it 18 would be better for mental health considering the same situation that we are seeing right now.

I'd go for 16 and I sure hope the IOC will consider it in all sports. Kids or people considered "protected" shouldn't be in the olympics. And when under 18, they should be with a legal guardian / parent.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Wasn't there a previous rule where if someone medalled at Junior Worlds they were grandfathered in to seniors?
If people have issues with ages, why not something like that instead? I mean, we'd still have had the current crop of young Russians, plus Alysa, but it wouldn't be ALL the young ones skating in seniors. Keeping skaters in a lower category than they're capable of competing might actually lead to some early retirement as well - if they aren't being challenged, they may lose their drive and love of the sport.

The last time they did "medal at junior world's" thing was 2000. Sasha Cohan could have gone to senior worlds in 2000 but finished 5th at junior world's so she was out. I think they sent Angela(?) as a result

 

[Seerek]

Should the senior age minimum be indeed raised to 17, only biathlon (21, for obvious reasons) would have a higher age minimum of all the winter sports on the Olympic programme.

 

[bardtoob]

The age should be raised to the age when all the rules apply.